91119: Returns to service and in Swallow livery too!

[61653 HTAFC]

I would just fix the thing, it seems more logical.

Sounds like that might be what's happening, but as the thread title suggests there was some doubt initially.

Agree that with a limited future for the fleet, the idea of using the remains to make a new and non-standard loco would be folly of the highest order.

Though if this loco is being revived, when the end comes it may be favoured by the AC Locomotive Group if they plan to take one on, as it'll end up in a better state than the rest.

 

[hexagon789]

Sounds like that might be what's happening, but as the thread title suggests there was some doubt initially.

Agree that with a limited future for the fleet, the idea of using the remains to make a new and non-standard loco would be folly of the highest order.

Though if this loco is being revived, when the end comes it may be favoured by the AC Locomotive Group if they plan to take one on, as it'll end up in a better state than the rest.

Good if it is being sorted out, VTEC certainly could do with another operational 91.

 

[D365]

... (VT)EC certainly could do with another operational 91.

East Coast never had enough!

 

[hexagon789]

East Coast never had enough!

No, I don't suppose they did! Is it simply too many needing maintenance or is there another factor that means there aren't enough 91s to cover the Mk4 sets?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Part of the problem is that the fleet of 31 were ordered for the service pattern of the time. Since then, demand has risen and more services operate (we now have pretty much 2tph Leeds to London, which would have been a pipedream in 1989) leading to fair number of services which are HST-operated despite being entirely under the wires*. GNER of course even revived 89001 to assist until a major failure killed it. There's also been the loss of a DVT at Great Heck, so even if "The Badger" was still operational the fleet would be stretched.

*=some of these services are part of diagrams which do go off the juice at some point, admittedly.

 

[hexagon789]

Part of the problem is that the fleet of 31 were ordered for the service pattern of the time. Since then, demand has risen and more services operate (we now have pretty much 2tph Leeds to London, which would have been a pipedream in 1989) leading to fair number of services which are HST-operated despite being entirely under the wires*. GNER of course even revived 89001 to assist until a major failure killed it. There's also been the loss of a DVT at Great Heck, so even if "The Badger" was still operational the fleet would be stretched.

*=some of these services are part of diagrams which do go off the juice at some point, admittedly.

I knew there were extra services, bit I didn't really appreciate how few spares there are to cover it all these days. How many diagrams are there? 30 IC225 and 12 IC225?

 

[43096]

I knew there were extra services, bit I didn't really appreciate how few spares there are to cover it all these days. How many diagrams are there? 30 IC225 and 12 IC225?

From memory, 26 Mark 4 sets (from 30) and 14 HST sets (from 15).

 

[hexagon789]

From memory, 26 Mark 4 sets (from 30) and 14 HST sets (from 15).

Quite tight diagramming on the HSTs. Only one spare set.

 

[43096]

Quite tight diagramming on the HSTs. Only one spare set.

Yeah - for sets EC51-64 it is 13 diagrams (26 from 32 power cars). NL65 is one from one (power cars 2 from 2) though maintenance cover is from the EMT fleet.

84% availability for the 91s (or 87% currently without 119) is pushing it, hence the 90 hire from DB Cargo.

 

[hexagon789]

Yeah - for sets EC51-64 it is 13 diagrams (26 from 32 power cars). NL65 is one from one (power cars 2 from 2) though maintenance cover is from the EMT fleet.

84% availability for the 91s (or 87% currently without 119) is pushing it, hence the 90 hire from DB Cargo.

I'm surprised such high availability us expected of the InterCity 125s given their age, or are they just more reliable than InterCity 225s (or particularly Class 91s)?

 

[D365]

The 91s were never known for being particularly low-maintenance, AIUI.

 

[ash39]

It's not unreasonable to expect near 30 year old locos running flat out at 125mph for most of the day on 1000 mile plus diagrams to require a lot of maintenance. The problem is there isn't enough time to do it, and not enough slack in the fleet to absorb unforeseen mass failures, such as those caused by the snow a few weeks back.

There are pictures on facebook of 91119 donating it's bogies to 91128, so it's clearly not expected back anytime soon.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm surprised such high availability us expected of the InterCity 125s given their age, or are they just more reliable than InterCity 225s (or particularly Class 91s)?

Some of the HST diagrams get covered by MK4s if needed. That is why some are totally under wires.

 

[hexagon789]

Some of the HST diagrams get covered by MK4s if needed. That is why some are totally under wires.

A lot of the Leeds services seem to end up being HSTs I've noticed.

Maybe we should just remove the engines fit pantograph's, transformers, new traction motors and the like to the power cars and keep the HSTs in service!

I like that idea, no need further the IEP (Invariably Exhaustingly Pedestrian) Trains!

(Grabs coat and makes for the hills!)

 

[ash39]

Also remember that if VTEC suddenly lost 4 HST power cars, they'd only be 2 sets short. It's not the same as with the 91's where if there's a spate of failures, they have nowhere to go. Class 90's step in but top speed and driver traction knowledge restrict their use.

They also have a last resort option of hiring Cross Country & EMT power cars to cover, with no detrimental effect on service.

I'd be interested to see the figures for mileage per failure for individual power cars vs 91's. I bet there's not a lot in it.

 

[hexagon789]

Also remember that if VTEC suddenly lost 4 HST power cars, they'd only be 2 sets short. It's not the same as with the 91's where if there's a spate of failures, they have nowhere to go. Class 90's step in but top speed and driver traction knowledge restrict their use.

They also have a last resort option of hiring Cross Country & EMT power cars to cover, with no detrimental effect on service.

I'd be interested to see the figures for mileage per failure for individual power cars vs 91's. I bet there's not a lot in it.

I took would be interested to see such figures if anyone can provide them.

 

[Domh245]

Maybe we should just remove the engines fit pantograph's, transformers, new traction motors and the like to the power cars and keep the HSTs in service!

I like that idea, no need further the IEP (Invariably Exhaustingly Pedestrian) Trains!

(Grabs coat and makes for the hills!)

Other than the Mk3s no longer being compliant after 31/12/2019...

 

[hexagon789]

Other than the Mk3s no longer being compliant after 31/12/2019...

We'll find a fix for that, no problem!

 

[Domh245]

We'll find a fix for that, no problem!

The fix exists, it's the time (or lack of) that's the issue!

 

[hexagon789]

The fix exists, it's the time (or lack of) that's the issue!

I know, (sadly), if only it wasn't such an issue.

 

[xotGD]

It might make sense for VTEC (or whoever replaces them) to have a couple of diagrams booked for Class 90s with appropriate timings. Twin benefits of reducing late running and cranks knowing for sure which services to cover.

 

[ash39]

They pretty much do already, on the Newark terminators.

 

[hexagon789]

They pretty much do already, on the Newark terminators.

They still seem to manage to run late more often than not though.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Something that's just occurred to me with regard to the use of 90s on the ECML: Obviously when running Northbound the driver will be in the 90 so will know they're limited to 110mph... but heading Southbound and driving from the DVT, how does a driver make sure they don't forget what loco is on the back, and end up trying to get up to 125?

 

[hexagon789]

Something that's just occurred to me with regard to the use of 90s on the ECML: Obviously when running Northbound the driver will be in the 90 so will know they're limited to 110mph... but heading Southbound and driving from the DVT, how does a driver make sure they don't forget what loco is on the back, and end up trying to get up to 125?

Using the speedset?

 

[gingertom]

The fix exists, it's the time (or lack of) that's the issue!

more likely lack of money.

 

[hexagon789]

more likely lack of money.

As with everything

 

[Domh245]

more likely lack of money.

The issue does seem to be time, as there is currently one way of making HST trailers compliant, which is being done by Wabtec at Doncaster, but between XC, Scotrail, and GWR they've not got any space to also do the EMT fleet in time for 2020, which is why there has been plenty of discussion about what they (or rather, the next operator) are going to do come 2020.

 

[hexagon789]

The issue does seem to be time, as there is currently one way of making HST trailers compliant, which is being done by Wabtec at Doncaster, but between XC, Scotrail, and GWR they've not got any space to also do the EMT fleet in time for 2020, which is why there has been plenty of discussion about what they (or rather, the next operator) are going to do come 2020.

Mass derogations perhaps?

 

[HSTEd]

If a retrofit scheme is underway then I imagine a derogation would be politically acceptable.

The real question is how many HST trailers have a future.
Are we going to have fragments of every set in service? (ie. every power car with various numbers of trailers?)