Northern / TransPennine Timetable Recast.

[Ianno87]

Because people want direct services.
People don't want to change.

I know that. But I'd reckon far more "people" (who may be theoetrical passengers that don't exist yet) benefit from a faster journey by omitting Stalybridge than those inconvenienced by a change at Huddersfield for points east (a decent chunk of whom would still travel anyway). It's disbenefiting the majority (Manchester/Liverpool-Leeds etc) for the benefit of a minority (Stalybridge-East), whole still have a very good alternative.

 

[Chester1]

I have pointed out to a few people in other online forums that the change from Stalybridge heading east would be a 4-5 mins wait at Huddersfield, same platform, likewise heading west would be the same. Not hard at all. But, some people just can't fathom that we can't run trains 'everywhere' for the sake of a minority.

So are the 4 fast services all stopping at Victoria-Huddersfield-Leeds only?

 

[BMIFlyer]

So are the 4 fast services all stopping at Victoria-Huddersfield-Leeds only?

The ones to and from Liverpool certainly are.

 

[Chester1]

The ones to and from Liverpool certainly are.

From your reaction to my previous post I assume then that the Airport - Middlesbrough and Airport - Newcastle services will be stopping at least once then. If not Stalybridge then Dewsbury? Are all 6 services stopping at Huddersfield?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Now i think on, stalybridge might still have an express anyway to be honest. TPE will serve it with a replaced northern service the hull semi fast and then one express. Dewsbury is the same.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I know that. But I'd reckon far more "people" (who may be theoetrical passengers that don't exist yet) benefit from a faster journey by omitting Stalybridge than those inconvenienced by a change at Huddersfield for points east (a decent chunk of whom would still travel anyway). It's disbenefiting the majority (Manchester/Liverpool-Leeds etc) for the benefit of a minority (Stalybridge-East), whole still have a very good alternative.

So we are inconveniencing current travellers, in order to make it quicker for people that don't actually exist?

Okay.

 

[notlob.divad]

So we are inconveniencing current travellers, in order to make it quicker for people that don't actually exist?

Okay.

The people exist, they just choose to travel via other means. In order to attempt to keep the cost of your ticket at a reasonable price, encouraging some other people to use the system to spread the costs out, might not be such a bad idea.

 

[BMIFlyer]

From your reaction to my previous post I assume then that the Airport - Middlesbrough and Airport - Newcastle services will be stopping at least once then. If not Stalybridge then Dewsbury? Are all 6 services stopping at Huddersfield?

Every TPE train will stop at Huddersfield. Why would any miss such a large station??

Some of the Newcastle / Middlesbrough services will call at Dewsbury (mostly peak time), not many will call at Stalybridge as it will have 2 semi fast trains per hour in the form of a Man Picc to Leeds shuttle and the Hull service.

 

[BrianB]

The people exist, they just choose to travel via other means. In order to attempt to keep the cost of your ticket at a reasonable price, encouraging some other people to use the system to spread the costs out, might not be such a bad idea.

Agree. Had Stalybridge not historically been the junction for Stockport and beyond, I doubt that any express would ever have called there. In my retail days I never sold many tickets to/from Stalybridge but i directed many more to change there. With that purpose now gone the bulk of its passengers are naturally towards its mother city Manchester, rather than Liverpool or Newcastle etc. A semi-fast to Leeds and Hull is about right for an economically insignificant town of 25000 people. In fact if you were going on population alone then they would be calling at Ashton instead, pop 45000. Taking the bigger picture into account, which is what commercial directors should be doing to earn their keep, no express would call at either but there would be an M60 parkway instead, now that would be a huge catchment area for east Manchester and north east Cheshire. No-one in their right mind, who lives in those areas, will attempt to get to Stalybridge to catch a train east, they will simply drive the whole way on the M62, and it is these people we need to reach out to.

 

[nr758123]

Agree. Had Stalybridge not historically been the junction for Stockport and beyond, I doubt that any express would ever have called there. In my retail days I never sold many tickets to/from Stalybridge but i directed many more to change there.

There's the buffet bar, and my employer's office is there (in the town, not the station). Other than that, I'm afraid Stalybridge doesn't have much to offer these days.

 

[greyman42]

Agree. Had Stalybridge not historically been the junction for Stockport and beyond, I doubt that any express would ever have called there. In my retail days I never sold many tickets to/from Stalybridge but i directed many more to change there. With that purpose now gone the bulk of its passengers are naturally towards its mother city Manchester, rather than Liverpool or Newcastle etc. A semi-fast to Leeds and Hull is about right for an economically insignificant town of 25000 people. In fact if you were going on population alone then they would be calling at Ashton instead, pop 45000. Taking the bigger picture into account, which is what commercial directors should be doing to earn their keep, no express would call at either but there would be an M60 parkway instead, now that would be a huge catchment area for east Manchester and north east Cheshire. No-one in their right mind, who lives in those areas, will attempt to get to Stalybridge to catch a train east, they will simply drive the whole way on the M62, and it is these people we need to reach out to.

That's interesting. Do you know why Ashton was not considered as an option to Stalybridge?

 

[TBirdFrank]

I realise that I am corresponding with the biggest collection of closed minds in the country but you guys just don't get it do you?

Stalybridge is not just a railhead for the immediate area, but for a belt extending from Audenshaw to Oldham to Glossop to Hyde - more like 200,000 than 25,000, albeit that the rail industry has done its level best to deter use of this mode for thirty years or more. It now has less than twenty car spaces and the local authority are making it difficult to use their spaces for more than seven hours on end - how intermodal friendly is that?

The stopping pattern of trains could be a whole lot more attractive. Huddersfield to points west and south has been systematically demolished. No wonder no-one use that anymore.

When Guide Bridge yard and station was cleared I personally made sure that seven acres was available for an M60 parkway (motel / car servicing etc.) but Railtrack/GMPTE/ etc etc determinedly ignored it until a few years ago when some parking was put in and immediately oversubscribed seventeen years after my first making it possible.

The people who have the temerity to tell me that no-one travels north and east from Stalybridge should come and stand with me at any time of day and watch the usually twenty plus people who board and who disembark each TPE service there. That an industry should have the brass neck to say to them - "you can change - it's just as convenient" is to totally misunderstand how people's preferences work.

If the industry makes it hard for me to economically drive / park / have an uninterrupted journey / reach my final destination, when I can do it it cheaper in one unbroken move in my car, then it will deserve to become the province of the unwaged and inner city types, and a complete irrelevance to those with wider horizons and aspirations. My family will not use the train because of the cost - now. There is even less chance of them using it after May.

Where have we gone wrong to have such business outlooks as now hold sway, and the total loss of the public service ethic that once ran through the industry like a stick of rock? A complete and utter tragedy for the industry and for the public alike.

 

[Chester1]

That's interesting. Do you know why Ashton was not considered as an option to Stalybridge?

The semi fasts will go to Piccadilly therefore they can't stop at Ashton. I guess that planners where not keen on using a different station if any express services stop between Victoria and Huddersfield. Ashton is a much better location, especially for connecting with buses and Metrolink.

 

[tbtc]

The people who have the temerity to tell me that no-one travels north and east from Stalybridge should come and stand with me at any time of day and watch the usually twenty plus people who board and who disembark each TPE service there.

It's a tempting offer, Frank, but I think I'll pass.

I'm not sure that anyone has claimed that *nobody* travels from Stalybridge towards Yorkshire, just that numbers are fairly insignificant (compared to those travelling west) and that the "real ale" types are a large proportion of people travelling *to* Stalybridge (which obviously isn't an all-day, all-week demand, or at least shouldn't be!).

Maybe, just maybe, someone at TPE has looked at the numbers going east from Stalybridge and feels that the vast majority of those passengers go no further than Huddersfield/ Leeds, so won't be terribly inconvenienced by these changes. Maybe they know their passenger numbers/ demand/ splits better than you do?

As for the quarter of a million people from an area including Glossop who use Stalybridge as a railhead for their journeys... well, the ones going from Glossop to Huddersfield/ Leeds will have a half hourly service... maybe there aren't enough ones going from Glossop to Newcastle on a regular basis? Dunno.

I'm sorry to hear that you are unhappy with your suburban station losing it's longer distance "inter-city" services, but if it's retaining through trains to Hull/ Leeds/ Huddersfield etc then I'd say it's doing pretty well for a place of that size.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I realise that I am corresponding with the biggest collection of closed minds in the country but you guys just don't get it do you?

My last post got pulled by a mod because it was disrespectful - it certainly was, because disrespect is all that some of the nonsense being spouted on here deserves, and the more I see of it the more it will get disrespect in response.

Stalybridge is not just a railhead for the immediate area, but for a belt extending from Audenshaw to Oldham to Glossop to Hyde - more like 200,000 than 25,000, albeit that the rail industry has done its level best to deter use of this mode for thirty years or more. It now has less than twenty car spaces and the local authority are making it difficult to use their spaces for more than seven hours on end - how intermodal friendly is that?

The stopping pattern of trains could be a whole lot more attractive. Huddersfield to points west and south has been systematically demolished. No wonder no-one use that anymore.

When Guide Bridge yard and station was cleared I personally made sure that seven acres was available for an M60 parkway (motel / car servicing etc.) but Railtrack/GMPTE/ etc etc determinedly ignored it until a few years ago when some parking was put in and immediately oversubscribed seventeen years after my first making it possible.

The people who have the temerity to tell me that no-one travels north and east from Stalybridge should come and stand with me at any time of day and watch the usually twenty plus people who board and who disembark each TPE service there. That an industry should have the brass neck to say to them - "you can change - it's just as convenient" is to totally misunderstand how people's preferences work.

If the industry makes it hard for me to economically drive / park / have an uninterrupted journey / reach my final destination, when I can do it it cheaper in one unbroken move in my car, then it will deserve to become the province of the unwaged and inner city types, and a complete irrelevance to those with wider horizons and aspirations. My family will not use the train because of the cost - now. There is even less chance of them using it after May.

Where have we gone wrong to have such business outlooks as now hold sway, and the total loss of the public service ethic that once ran through the industry like a stick of rock? A complete and utter tragedy for the industry and for the public alike.















12-=

If you could please show me where anyone says no one. Ne myself said not many. Especially when compared to travel towards manchester.

 

[Bantamzen]

It's a tempting offer, Frank, but I think I'll pass.

I'm not sure that anyone has claimed that *nobody* travels from Stalybridge towards Yorkshire, just that numbers are fairly insignificant (compared to those travelling west) and that the "real ale" types are a large proportion of people travelling *to* Stalybridge (which obviously isn't an all-day, all-week demand, or at least shouldn't be!).

Maybe, just maybe, someone at TPE has looked at the numbers going east from Stalybridge and feels that the vast majority of those passengers go no further than Huddersfield/ Leeds, so won't be terribly inconvenienced by these changes. Maybe they know their passenger numbers/ demand/ splits better than you do?

As for the quarter of a million people from an area including Glossop who use Stalybridge as a railhead for their journeys... well, the ones going from Glossop to Huddersfield/ Leeds will have a half hourly service... maybe there aren't enough ones going from Glossop to Newcastle on a regular basis? Dunno.

I'm sorry to hear that you are unhappy with your suburban station losing it's longer distance "inter-city" services, but if it's retaining through trains to Hull/ Leeds/ Huddersfield etc then I'd say it's doing pretty well for a place of that size.

I am being a bit soft in the head, or it that half hourly TP service pretty much what it is now, save a couple of extra services in the morning & afternoon peaks. And the same major destinations like Huddersfield & Leeds to the east will still be served, just with slightly different calling patterns and revised timings? Because if so you have to wonder just what the Stalybridge based poster is annoyed about?

If you could please show me where anyone says no one. Ne myself said not many. Especially when compared to travel towards manchester.

As a fairly regular user of the North TP, and from purely anecdotal observations of course, but the flows from Stalybridge seem much heavier to and from Manchester than eastwards, much heavier.

 

[tbtc]

I am being a bit soft in the head, or it that half hourly TP service pretty much what it is now, save a couple of extra services in the morning & afternoon peaks. And the same major destinations like Huddersfield & Leeds to the east will still be served, just with slightly different calling patterns and revised timings? Because if so you have to wonder just what the Stalybridge based poster is annoyed about?



As a fairly regular user of the North TP, and from purely anecdotal observations of course, but the flows from Stalybridge seem much heavier to and from Manchester than eastwards, much heavier.

I agree with all of your points.

The problem that we have on here is that some people seem to feel that, because a service links two points that there is significant demand between those points.

For example, I don't think that there's any particular reason for the Newcastle/Middlesbrough/Scarborough/Hull services to service Manchester Airport instead of Liverpool, or for them to serve Liverpool instead of Manchester Airport. It's just that these are the eastern/western branches of the TPE network, rather than any particularly significant number of Scousers going on holiday to Scarborough (for example).

(same applies to every other network of services, e.g. the number of Metrolink passengers from Altrincham wanting to travel all the way to Bury/ Rochdale will be tiny so I wouldn't lose much sleep if the northern termini were swapped, as long as these places retained their frequent service into central Manchester - in fact you could argue that Stalybridge is lucky to retain long distance heavy rail services when other local stations in Greater Manchester are now only served by tram)

For every hundred passengers at Stalybridge, I'd estimate maybe 80% head towards Manchester and of the remaining 20% the majority of them go no further than Huddersfield/ Leeds.

There's probably a token amount of people who'd like a direct service from Stalybridge to Newcastle, but then there are probably some people who'd like a direct service from Stalybridge to Bradford/ Wakefield etc.

Can't meet every esoteric demand, especially not in the days of simple clockface timetables (albeit with good connections at places like Huddersfield) - we shouldn't have the tail wagging the dog.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I am being a bit soft in the head, or it that half hourly TP service pretty much what it is now, save a couple of extra services in the morning & afternoon peaks. And the same major destinations like Huddersfield & Leeds to the east will still be served, just with slightly different calling patterns and revised timings? Because if so you have to wonder just what the Stalybridge based poster is annoyed about?

As a fairly regular user of the North TP, and from purely anecdotal observations of course, but the flows from Stalybridge seem much heavier to and from Manchester than eastwards, much heavier.

Indeed, Stalybridge is losing its link to York, Malton Seamer and Scarborough only. And gaining links to other places west of Manchester. So I too am failing to understand the annoyance.

And as a daily user of North TP for 3 years I agree.

 

[Senex]

Can't meet every esoteric demand, especially not in the days of simple clockface timetables (albeit with good connections at places like Huddersfield) - we shouldn't have the tail wagging the dog.

I agree very much with your principle, but the problem is that in this country we don't have good and reliable connections.

 

[northwichcat]

For example, I don't think that there's any particular reason for the Newcastle/Middlesbrough/Scarborough/Hull services to service Manchester Airport instead of Liverpool, or for them to serve Liverpool instead of Manchester Airport. It's just that these are the eastern/western branches of the TPE network, rather than any particularly significant number of Scousers going on holiday to Scarborough (for example).

Liverpool to Newcastle under 3 hours was a DfT aspiration but there were some complaints about Newcastle losing it's airport service in favour of a Liverpool one which is why the end result will be Newcastle will have 2tph to Manchester but one will be 15 minutes after the other so that Newcastle gets an airport services rather than 2tph to Liverpool. However, there's also demand for Scarborough to Manchester Airport - when I was in Scarborough a couple of years back I recall an elderly Irish man was asking about how he'd get to Manchester Airport the following day and he ended up saying he'd take the one token direct train rather than travel at a more convenient time for his flight.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Update.

TPE services on the South route (Cleethorpes to Manchester) will no longer serve Chinley from May 21st.

The will also remain 3 cars (mostly) until December timetable change when many more services should be 6 cars.

 

[northwichcat]

Update.

TPE services on the South route (Cleethorpes to Manchester) will no longer serve Chinley from May 21st.

The will also remain 3 cars (mostly) until December timetable change when many more services should be 6 cars.

Would there have been 6 cars between Manchester and Sheffield anyway? Given TPE are required to run the extra Manchester-Leeds services and extend the York services to Newcastle I can't imagine there would have been many 185s for strengthening South TPE prior to the mk5s entering service.

Just looking Chinley will have a 07:01 and a 08:03 EMT service to Manchester and 16:42 and 17:42 EMT services from Manchester before the hourly? Northern services are taken in the consideration. That's a good service for a little village in the Peak District!

 

[KevinTurvey]

I see some of the re-routed Liverpool to Scarborough trains are now showing. Departing Liverpool @ 56min past the hour, Leeds in 1hr 23min and to Scarborough in 2hr 37min.
An overall time saving of about half an hour.
Hope the Newcastle are @26 past to balance things out!

 

[Starmill]

Just looking Chinley will have a 07:01 and a 08:03 EMT service to Manchester and 16:42 and 17:42 EMT services from Manchester before the hourly? Northern services are taken in the consideration. That's a good service for a little village in the Peak District!

That's the same service that it has at the minute. I have said before that it's crazy that a tiny Derbyshire village has 3tph in the evening peak, while some of the busiest suburban commuter stations in Greater Manchester do not have any peak extras at all.

There is only one TransPennine train to Manchester in the morning and one back in the evening that serves Chinley.

 

[BMIFlyer]

I see some of the re-routed Liverpool to Scarborough trains are now showing. Departing Liverpool @ 56min past the hour, Leeds in 1hr 23min and to Scarborough in 2hr 37min.
An overall time saving of about half an hour.
Hope the Newcastle are @26 past to balance things out!

First one from Liverpool is 0526 to Newcastle. Then 0556 to Scarborough, then the same each hour until 2126 to Newcastle, 2156 to York, 2226 to York.

 

[northwichcat]

That's the same service that it has at the minute. I have said before that it's crazy that a tiny Derbyshire village has 3tph in the evening peak, while some of the busiest suburban commuter stations in Greater Manchester do not have any peak extras at all.

There is only one TransPennine train to Manchester in the morning and one back in the evening that serves Chinley.

Chinley is supposed to be getting a full hourly Northern service so if that happens they'll get more services overall despite the loss of TPE calls. TPE calls were only temporary due to the diesel stock shortage created by the TPE 170s going to Chiltern e.g. the 17:23 departure from Piccadilly is now an EMU to Hazel Grove instead of a pair of 142s to Chinley via Hazel Grove.

 

[xtradj]

First one from Liverpool is 0526 to Newcastle. Then 0556 to Scarborough, then the same each hour until 2126 to Newcastle, 2156 to York, 2226 to York.

Will there still be a daily service from Liverpool to Middlesbrough? I’m guessing 19.26?

 

[Bantamzen]

I see some of the re-routed Liverpool to Scarborough trains are now showing. Departing Liverpool @ 56min past the hour, Leeds in 1hr 23min and to Scarborough in 2hr 37min.
An overall time saving of about half an hour.
Hope the Newcastle are @26 past to balance things out!

Looking at the few that are showing, it seems that these are currently shown as calling at Lea Green. I was hoping they would call at Newton-Le-Willows or Earlstown to connect with Warrington services as I travel there quite regularly from Leeds. I know there is the new Northern to Chester on its way, but that will take quite a bit longer and frankly I'd like to travel behind / in front of a 68, as well as liking to book first class.

 

[Chester1]

Looking at the few that are showing, it seems that these are currently shown as calling at Lea Green. I was hoping they would call at Newton-Le-Willows or Earlstown to connect with Warrington services as I travel there quite regularly from Leeds. I know there is the new Northern to Chester on its way, but that will take quite a bit longer and frankly I'd like to travel behind / in front of a 68, as well as liking to book first class.

The Liverpool to Newcastle service will be stopping at Newton-le-Willows and should be run by 802s from next year. All TPEs new stock are going to be 5 coaches / carriages; 4 standard and 1 first class. They and the refurbished 185s are supposed to have very similar level of facilities and comfort.

1 hour 23 minute journey time from Liverpool to Leeds half hourly service is a huge improvement compared with 5 years ago. Hopefully there will be more progress over the next 5 - 10 years to reduce it to under an hour.

 

[northwichcat]

The unfortunate thing is at present Victoria-Huddersfield-Leeds is not faster than Piccadilly-Huddersfield-Leeds is currently. Liverpool services have been speeded up by being moved to Chat Moss and only having one intermediate call between Liverpool and Manchester instead of three and only calling at one station in central Manchester instead of two.