Northern / TransPennine Timetable Recast.

[Andrew Nelson]

Has the May Timetable major recast been put on hold?

The extra TPX services seem to have vanished from the advance information.

And as we are well within "T12", it's rather concerning.

10 weeks from the changes, (or not).

The Open Data (I presume used by all booking engines / sites) isn't there any longer, and people are finding it impossible to make advance bookings.

 

[ainsworth74]

It should still be going ahead but as covered in a previous thread Network Rail are unable to meet the usual T-12 deadline for getting the timetable confirmed. So data is no longer complete and/or subject to change until much closer to the date of travel than usual.

 

[Mathew S]

Hi @johnsmith1972, you might find this thread re: the Northern timetable useful:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-timetable-plan-for-may-2018.147558/

There's a fair bit of TPE related info in there as well.

As I understand it, and according to nationalrail.co.uk/timetablechange, we're looking at 7th April before we can expect any definitive information.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

It should still be going ahead but as covered in a previous thread Network Rail are unable to meet the usual T-12 deadline for getting the timetable confirmed. So data is no longer complete and/or subject to change until much closer to the date of travel than usual.

Thanks.

I just thought it was odd that it was there and now gone.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Hi @johnsmith1972, you might find this thread re: the Northern timetable useful:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-timetable-plan-for-may-2018.147558/

There's a fair bit of TPE related info in there as well.

As I understand it, and according to nationalrail.co.uk/timetablechange, we're looking at 7th April before we can expect any definitive information.

Thankyou.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thanks.

I just thought it was odd that it was there and now gone.

It's definitely not usual so that's perfectly understandable!!

 

[Andrew Nelson]

"This means that in a small number of instances, you may not be able to book tickets until less than the usual 12 weeks before travel."

Well no, it looks like you can't book in most instances.

According to RTT / OTT, there's only 1 train / hour through Huddersfield.

 

[Mathew S]

"This means that in a small number of instances, you may not be able to book tickets until less than the usual 12 weeks before travel."

Well no, it looks like you can't book in most instances.

According to RTT / OTT, there's only 1 train / hour through Huddersfield.

Nationally, though, which is what that quote is referring to, it is only a small number because it's only TPE and Northern who've been affected quite this badly, as I understand it.
Inconvenient for those of us who use those two companies I agree, but still means that most passengers aren't really affected by it.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Apart from Northern and TPX, hardly any other TOCs are affected.
But the point is the two that are affected, are very much so.

If Sothern go on strike, as a whole, the whole industry isn't very much affected.
But Southern passengers are.

The NR announcement is very poorly worded if they are referring to the network at large.

 

[northwichcat]

Apart from Northern and TPX, hardly any other TOCs are affected.
But the point is the two that are affected, are very much so.

If Sothern go on strike, as a whole, the whole industry isn't very much affected.
But Southern passengers are.

The NR announcement is very poorly worded if they are referring to the network at large.

Northern and TPE timetables being delayed has an effect on other operators using the same routes and operators who Northern and TPE connect with. For instance, if you can't get TPE or Northern Advance tickets for Liverpool to Manchester but you can get EMT tickets then EMT tickets will sell out sooner. While if you want to make a journey like Huddersfield to London you'll get told no tickets available, despite the fact VTEC have released Advance tickets - there's just no connecting services which the journey planners can find.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Northern and TPE timetables being delayed has an effect on other operators using the same routes and operators who Northern and TPE connect with. For instance, if you can't get TPE or Northern Advance tickets for Liverpool to Manchester but you can get EMT tickets then EMT tickets will sell out sooner. While if you want to make a journey like Huddersfield to London you'll get told no tickets available, despite the fact VTEC have released Advance tickets - there's just no connecting services which the journey planners can find.

A right mess isn't it?

 

[PaulC88]

It is in deed!
I'm waiting to get my Monday morning commute tickets which is a Chorley to Manchester Piccadilly then VTWC down to Milton Keynes. I'm worried by the time I can book a service from Chorley to Manchester Piccadilly the Virgin Trains tickets will have gone up costing me a fortune!

 

[TBirdFrank]

I have written to everyone concerned with isolating Tameside M B C from its historic rail links with the North East. At first I got the brush off -especially from rail nerds on here who don't understand that long established routines are not like bags of sweeties to be discontinued on a whim, but then I got a cryptic comment from TPE that I should wait for better news.

Are the lunatics at the DfT coming to the realisation that the Network exists to serve its passengers rather than sailing past them non stop?

 

[Chester1]

I have written to everyone concerned with isolating Tameside M B C from its historic rail links with the North East. At first I got the brush off -especially from rail nerds on here who don't understand that long established routines are not like bags of sweeties to be discontinued on a whim, but then I got a cryptic comment from TPE that I should wait for better news.

Are the lunatics at the DfT coming to the realisation that the Network exists to serve its passengers rather than sailing past them non stop?

I am guessing that your refering to Stalybridge losing services further than Leeds? Presumably it will have the 2tph of Semi fast services to Piccadilly and Leeds/Hull. Is the current plan to remove Stalybridge stops on all TPE services through Victoria? If so thats pretty stupid and must be due to the political wish to reduce journey times between Manchester and Leeds. I think there is no chance of 802 services stopping there due to their limited diesel power, its quite possible that they will run non stop between Victoria and Leeds until wiring eventually gets done. The Liverpool to Scarborough and Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough services should stop at both Stalybridge and Huddersfield though.

 

[Ianno87]

I have written to everyone concerned with isolating Tameside M B C from its historic rail links with the North East. At first I got the brush off -especially from rail nerds on here who don't understand that long established routines are not like bags of sweeties to be discontinued on a whim, but then I got a cryptic comment from TPE that I should wait for better news.

Are the lunatics at the DfT coming to the realisation that the Network exists to serve its passengers rather than sailing past them non stop?

What's wrong with changing at Huddersfield or Leeds? Still plenty of attractive journey options available...

 

[Andrew Nelson]

What's wrong with changing at Huddersfield or Leeds? Still plenty of attractive journey options available...

Because people want direct services.
People don't want to change.

 

[Chester1]

Because people want direct services.
People don't want to change.

Its reasonable to expect Stalybridge to have more than 2tph to Piccadilly and 2tph Northern services from Wigan/Southport/Bolton terminating at there. That would mean a loss of all eastbound services apart from semi fasts to Hull and Leeds and the end of direct services to Liverpool and Manchester Airport. 4tph to Manchester would be less than Wigan, Bolton and in the long term Rochdale. Although I doubt TBirdFrank cares about the lose of direct services to Manchester Airport because the airport link was only built in the 90s!

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I am guessing that your refering to Stalybridge losing services further than Leeds? Presumably it will have the 2tph of Semi fast services to Piccadilly and Leeds/Hull. Is the current plan to remove Stalybridge stops on all TPE services through Victoria? If so thats pretty stupid and must be due to the political wish to reduce journey times between Manchester and Leeds. I think there is no chance of 802 services stopping there due to their limited diesel power, its quite possible that they will run non stop between Victoria and Leeds until wiring eventually gets done. The Liverpool to Scarborough and Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough services should stop at both Stalybridge and Huddersfield though.

Indeed.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I catch trains that stop at stalybridge every day. It ia very rare to see many getting off there heading to manchester or getting on towards huddersfield.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I catch trains that stop at stalybridge every day. It ia very rare to see many getting off there heading to manchester or getting on towards huddersfield.

What sort of times?

 

[YorkshireBear]

What sort of times?

Pretty much everytime you could possibly imagine over the last 3 years. Very few times I have not been through.

It is just an observation.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Because people want direct services.
People don't want to change.

I know this is given as law, and I do kind of agree with it, but I also wonder how much of that is down to inconvenient changes or unreliable journey times?

A well-choreographed cross-platform change or a 'same platform 5 minutes later' job aren't that bad if they can be relied upon, cf. SBB. Now whilst obviously the Swiss Railway is very different to our own, It's fine to change trains because you know you'll make the connection.

I make a (non-cross-platform!) connection at LDS most days between Northern (to/from Skipton) and Transpennine (to/from Manchester) which has less than 9 minutes to get from platform 3 to platform 16 - it works because [touch wood] both my inbound and outbound services are nearly always on time. I know it can be done and now I don't think about it.

TL;DR - in my personal experience, if interchange is needed, if it is reliable it needn't be a problem or disincentive. If you're going east of Leeds from Stalybridge and have to change there, it's OK as long as you can trust that that connection will nearly always be made.

 

[BMIFlyer]

I have written to everyone concerned with isolating Tameside M B C from its historic rail links with the North East. At first I got the brush off -especially from rail nerds on here who don't understand that long established routines are not like bags of sweeties to be discontinued on a whim, but then I got a cryptic comment from TPE that I should wait for better news.

Are the lunatics at the DfT coming to the realisation that the Network exists to serve its passengers rather than sailing past them non stop?

There will still be one or two trains from Stalybridge serving York in the peak times, nothing more than that. Believe me there aren't as many people as you think who travel Stalybridge to York, and beyond - most go to Huddersfield or Leeds only heading east.

I think there is no chance of 802 services stopping there due to their limited diesel power, its quite possible that they will run non stop between Victoria and Leeds until wiring eventually gets done. The Liverpool to Scarborough and Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough services should stop at both Stalybridge and Huddersfield though.

LOL, where do you dream up this kind of stuff from?

The 802's will stop at Huddersfield for certain! They have powerful engines also, better than the VTEC ones.

The Liverpool trains no matter the destination will only serve Lea Green/Newton LW, Man Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, then on to either the beach or Tyneside.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I know this is given as law, and I do kind of agree with it, but I also wonder how much of that is down to inconvenient changes or unreliable journey times?

Currently journey to Westgate, get off Train.
Wait same platform.
Get next Train to Kings Cross etc.

Or.

Go to Leeds,

Get off Train, at the busiest Station in the North.

Find platform by going up escalator that is constantly breaking down ,going over footbridge, down escalator that is constantly breaking down. (or steps.)

Fight through the crowds onto a much later service.

 

[Chester1]

There will still be one or two trains from Stalybridge serving York in the peak times, nothing more than that. Believe me there aren't as many people as you think who travel Stalybridge to York, and beyond - most go to Huddersfield or Leeds only heading east.



LOL, where do you dream up this kind of stuff from?

The 802's will stop at Huddersfield for certain! They have powerful engines also, better than the VTEC ones.

The Liverpool trains no matter the destination will only serve Lea Green/Newton LW, Man Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, then on to either the beach or Tyneside.

Well I was half right! Only calling at Huddersfield is half way to being none stop compared with stopping twice. There has been discussions in other threads on the power to weight ratio of 802s and Mark V sets. I will trust you if you can say that 802s on diesel can match 185s?

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Pretty much everytime you could possibly imagine over the last 3 years. Very few times I have not been through.

It is just an observation.

So the rebuilding and extra platforms were a waste of time and money then?

 

[BMIFlyer]

A well-choreographed cross-platform change or a 'same platform 5 minutes later' job aren't that bad if they can be relied upon.

I have pointed out to a few people in other online forums that the change from Stalybridge heading east would be a 4-5 mins wait at Huddersfield, same platform, likewise heading west would be the same. Not hard at all. But, some people just can't fathom that we can't run trains 'everywhere' for the sake of a minority.

 

[faltskog36abba]

I catch trains that stop at stalybridge every day. It ia very rare to see many getting off there heading to manchester or getting on towards huddersfield.

In my experience a handful of passengers disembark from points east in every train I have been on in the rush hours[Ale train at weekends not included]. The local stopping service to and from Huddersfield however has many people joining and alighting at all the stops everyday.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I have travelled on the TPE North route more times than I care to remember going back over 30 years and can honestly say that the only appreciable numbers boarding/alighting at Stalybridge are either commuters to/from Manchester or ale-trailers. Sure there are small numbers making other journeys on most trains but they are just that, small in number. The route is currently between a rock and a hard place as regards serving everyone in the way they would like. Essentially demand is outstripping supply, somewhat to the surprise, no doubt, of the DfT. The longer term solution would require as a minimum rather longer trains than can be accommodated at quite a few stations as well as a general speed-up which electrification would help with enormously. Right now we are taking the first, painful to some, steps towards a better long-term solution. And in the short-term that means the needs of the many are outweighing the needs of the few. The many will be reasonably happy, the few will not.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its interesting if it really is outstripping supply, the shuttle service was considered something of a loss leader to provide a turn up and go frequency and was expected to lose money requiring heavy subsidy.