Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes

[jon0844]

Some trains go into the sidings to come back out ten minutes or so later. It works as long as the train can be shut down and moved quickly. One drunk on the train sleeping and it's game over.

 

[Failed Unit]

Some trains go into the sidings to come back out ten minutes or so later. It works as long as the train can be shut down and moved quickly. One drunk on the train sleeping and it's game over.

I understand that is the problem. To turn it around it is changes ends and go. If anyone is asleep they are going back to London. To shunt it someone needs to walk through the train and check. I am sure one of the drivers said that is why they want a platform at Stevenage rather than a siding.

 

[arb]

Great Northern's twitter feed has just advised somebody who was asking for May timetables to "check back at the end of the week" (https://twitter.com/GNRailUK/status/973892730081431553).

I have no idea if they're actually expecting to publish timetables by the end of the week, or if that's just a cleverly worded holding response with no actual information. It's a sad state of affairs that I'm naturally assuming the latter.

 

[Failed Unit]

Great Northern's twitter feed has just advised somebody who was asking for May timetables to "check back at the end of the week" (https://twitter.com/GNRailUK/status/973892730081431553).

I have no idea if they're actually expecting to publish timetables by the end of the week, or if that's just a cleverly worded holding response with no actual information. It's a sad state of affairs that I'm naturally assuming the latter.

They have said that every week since they missed their orginal deadline of 25th Feb.

 

[arb]

They have said that every week since they missed their orginal deadline of 25th Feb.

Oh, OK. I clearly don't read their twitter feed often enough

 

[philjo]

Today as well? I must have got lucky. Yesterday was a pig.

I suspect maintenance is down to an absolute minimum on the 313s making them worse then they should be with TLC. Yes they are 40 years old and won’t last forever, I just don’t think GTR are trying as hard as they can to keep them running.

For interest how does the 0720 get to Letchworth. My understanding is it overnights from a previous days Moorgate working so they will need run a couple of empties to help.

I think the units forming the 0720 currently park overnight in Letchworth carriage sidings. On a couple of mornings when the snow was around the units had snow on the roof when they came out of the sidings into Letchworth station and deposited it on everyone standing on the platform! so it obviously hadn't been running at any speed that morning.
There was a period when it used 8 coach 365/321 and I think then it was formed of an early starter from Peterborough to Kings cross which then ran empty from Kings Cross and arrived in Letchworth around 07:05. if there were any problems on the Peterborough line or other delays then the train often turned up late at Letchworth and was either very late leaving, cancelled or started from WGC.

 

[jon0844]

I understand that is the problem. To turn it around it is changes ends and go. If anyone is asleep they are going back to London. To shunt it someone needs to walk through the train and check. I am sure one of the drivers said that is why they want a platform at Stevenage rather than a siding.

That would certainly be preferable.

Come May, it looks like 1 in 2 Moorgate trains will arrive and have to be shunted from platform 3 or 4 to 1, which introduces a huge risk of delay.

 

[Downthelane]

Shunted under own power accross the fast up and down or via the flyover?

An 08 Thunderbird anyone?

 

[GoatSarah]

I understand the reason they can’t replace the 313s with 365s is for tunnel evacuations. Why not use the 387s instead and use the 365s to cover the routes the 387s are taken off? It feels like they’re mothballing the wrong trains.

 

[whoosh]

I understand the reason they can’t replace the 313s with 365s is for tunnel evacuations. Why not use the 387s instead and use the 365s to cover the routes the 387s are taken off? It feels like they’re mothballing the wrong trains.

Because... (a comprehensive list):

387s are 4 coaches, 313s are 3 coaches. There is no room on the Northern City Line for trains longer than 6 coaches. Four cars off peak, and during the peak won't go down well.

Right hand side signals need a distance of 19 metres from the front of the train to the signal, to be sighted clearly for a 387 (due to the massive gangway), and most of the signals on the NCL are on the right hand side at the stations. They can't be moved/co-actors fitted overnight.

(Saying that, they will need to be moved/have co-actors fitted for class 717s which have equally bad/worse visibility on the Driver's right hand side.)

Also, on a 387, the emergency ladder (for the passengers side doors) is in a cupboard in one of the intermediate cars, where on a 313 it is in the cab area, along with another one that fits the emergency centre door. To exit through the gangway would need a ladder specially made with attachments etc. and would need to be kept in the cab area.

Not all Kings Cross drivers sign 387s, who together with Hitchin drivers are the only depots that now work trains on the NCL.

So:
Why train drivers unnecessarily on 387s, when you are going to have to train them on 717s? That just costs twice as much to cover a Driver to be released from driving duties twice.

Any measures for signal sighting will be underway for 717s anyway.

Why go to the bother of designing and approving a centre door escape ladder for a 387 along with finding a place in the cab to put it?

What are you getting out of it? A few months of shorter peak trains? What's the point in that?!

 

[Hadders]

As things stand yes but the timetable is incomplete and it's the extra services that are causing the issue as they have routed too many trains on the slow line and now realised that it's not going to work on GN.

In fact many scoffed day 24TPH through the core, the challenge is actually achieving that on GN.

If some of the proposed Cambridge to KGX services are routed on the slow in the morning peak from May then it won't work as the 313 will immediately screw up timings.

There are no additional services between Stevenage and London in the peak (eg 0700-0800), even when the additional services get loaded.

 

[ijmad]

Still the woeful AM peak reductions on the Catford Loop.

 

[Downthelane]

There are no additional services between Stevenage and London in the peak (eg 0700-0800), even when the additional services get loaded.

Not Stevenage but further south there, the WGC services.

 

[tsr]

Also, on a 387, the emergency ladder (for the passengers side doors) is in a cupboard in one of the intermediate cars, where on a 313 it is in the cab area, along with another one that fits the emergency centre door. To exit through the gangway would need a ladder specially made with attachments etc. and would need to be kept in the cab area.

377/387 Electrostar ladders are already approved for evacuations through the unit-end gangways, and through the internal gangway doors if the unit has divided by accident.

It is rarely, if ever, done, but it's in the traction manuals somewhere.

Speed would not be a strong point with this, granted!

The rest of your points (and general clearance of traction types to add to the list) are very valid indeed!

 

[Verulamius]

I have tried to compare the phase 2 consultation timetable with the current proposed thameslink timetable from St Albans on realtimetrains website.

In the peak towards London there is little change. The first Flitwick starter (7.41 at St Albans) is not running, but the 7.30 Rainham train runs 10 mins later at 7.40 and fast to St Pancras. So the net impact is a reduction in one semifast. Also the last train from Luton to Orpington in the shoulder peak does not run through St Albans.

There are a few more changes in the early evening shoulder peak on the return back from London.

 

[TheDavibob]

The NCL timetable seems to finally be up for May, with trains running on both branches, eg:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/basic/MOG/2018/05/31/0707

 

[Downthelane]

YET ANOTHER 313 failure with the 7.20 from Letchworth cancelled. This was not showing on GN app even after the time it was supposed to have departed so did it fail at Letchworth or earlier.

Farcical for anyone to expect these units to work through the summer and fit around the new fact of fiction.

 

[Downthelane]

The NCL timetable seems to finally be up for May, with trains running on both branches, eg:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/basic/MOG/2018/05/31/0707

Still missing the WGC-KGX semi fast services OR are GN seriously suggesting these are no longer running?

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Just checked the National Rail Enquiries app, for services from Finsbury Park to WGC post-22:00 on weekdays, and the stopping trains are now included AT LAST

 

[Failed Unit]

Looking better. Still the WGC - Kings cross peaks missing and some WGC - Moorgate peaks missing.

 

[radamfi]

Some overnight trains still missing.

 

[notverydeep]

Still missing the WGC-KGX semi fast services OR are GN seriously suggesting these are no longer running?

Are these the only services expected in the timetable that remain to be uploaded now? Assuming these do continue to run, does anyone know if these (as future Thameslink route TL8 services) will go over to Class 700s from May? I assume they could be 387s or 365s southbound, but not 365s northbound as according to the consultation draft timetable, all will have New Barnet stops. At present the 2V90, the 1758 London Kings Cross to Welwyn Garden City misses New Barnet and has a Hadley Wood stop instead, apparently to allow it to be formed of 8 car 365s without Selective Door Operation (and 317s/321s in the past).

One would imagine that assuming 313s no longer work these services, this timetable would be an opportunity for the last of the 313 peak single unit (3 car) workings, such as 2J38, the 0834 Stevenage to Moorgate to be lengthened to 6 cars. Does anybody know if that is planned?

 

[greatkingrat]

Looking better. Still the WGC - Kings cross peaks missing and some WGC - Moorgate peaks missing.

The Moorgate service looks complete. There aren't any obvious gaps where additional trains could be squeezed in.

 

[Fred26]

Are these the only services expected in the timetable that remain to be uploaded now? Assuming these do continue to run, does anyone know if these (as future Thameslink route TL8 services) will go over to Class 700s from May? I assume they could be 387s or 365s southbound, but not 365s northbound as according to the consultation draft timetable, all will have New Barnet stops. At present the 2V90, the 1758 London Kings Cross to Welwyn Garden City misses New Barnet and has a Hadley Wood stop instead, apparently to allow it to be formed of 8 car 365s without Selective Door Operation (and 317s/321s in the past).

One would imagine that assuming 313s no longer work these services, this timetable would be an opportunity for the last of the 313 peak single unit (3 car) workings, such as 2J38, the 0834 Stevenage to Moorgate to be lengthened to 6 cars. Does anybody know if that is planned?

New Barnet has 8-car platforms. Hadley Wood has 6-car platforms.

 

[OwenB]

New Barnet has 8-car platforms. Hadley Wood has 6-car platforms.

Just to confirm - This service is currently 8 car and does stop at Hadley Wood

 

[Fred26]

Just to confirm - This service is currently 8 car and does stop at Hadley Wood

I can't recall, but perhaps they've been lengthened recently?

 

[OwenB]

I can't recall, but perhaps they've been lengthened recently?

I've been catching the train for over a year and don't recall any change in length. You could be right though.

 

[arb]

Still missing the WGC-KGX semi fast services OR are GN seriously suggesting these are no longer running?

Are these the only services expected in the timetable that remain to be uploaded now?

I hope not - there are still odd services to/from stations north of Cambridge that are missing, as compared to the current timetable. For example, the first train of the day from King's Lynn to KGX (currently departing 04:54), and the equivalent of the current 16:14 from KGX to Ely, are both missing. I haven't checked exhaustively.

 

[whoosh]

New Barnet has 8-car platforms. Hadley Wood has 6-car platforms.

Not quite. New Barnet has 8 car platforms except the Down Slow, which is 7. Hadley Wood, slow lines are 8, fast lines are 6.

 

[notverydeep]

I've been catching the train for over a year and don't recall any change in length. You could be right though.

2V90, the 1758 London Kings Cross to Welwyn Garden City was increased to 8 cars when the class 321s arrived with FCC - around 2009. Until that time, the equivalent train stopped at New Barnet but not Hadley Wood (all the other XX:28, XX:58 King's Cross to Welwyn Garden City formed of either a single 4 car unit or 2 x 3 car class 313s continued to serve New Barnet). The reason given at the time was that 8 car trains could not serve platform 4 at New Barnet, although I can remember an extended stop at platform 3 at New Barnet while aboard an 8 car class 365 while a Person Under a Train incident further north was sorted out. 2V90 does not use SDO at Hadley Wood platform 4.

I do not know why New Barnet requires SDO, the physical platforms do appear long enough for 8 cars, however 8 car trains southbound formed of 2 x class 387, such as 2Y87, the 08:44 Welwyn Garden City to King's Cross cut out the doors in the 7th and 8th car, though this train was previously formed of pairs of 317s, 321s or 365s and these did not cut any doors out.