Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes

[Bald Rick]

Absolutely right. I hear one of the preview services went round at Letchworth today, no doubt a foretaste of what is to come.

Horrible trains which have attracted national media attention, slower journeys, loss of non-stop peak trains at busy stations, terrible reliability. Welcome to Thameslink. Sorry, ThamesLink/. And now the programme can't even deliver what it said it would this May. Unravelling?

How odd then that the preview services seem to have been well loaded through the core with passengers to / from the ECML.

Terrible reliability? Thameslink has just had the best ever Autumn / Winter I can remember.

National media attention - prompted by a small number of people, including some from these very pages no doubt. Meanwhile the same seats have been on many other trains for years....

It can’t suit everybody. But it is for the greater good.

 

[Bald Rick]

The reality of the mean failure rate of the 313 is what has caused the issue. Poor planning now undermined by 42 year old stock failing most days.

I disagree, the plan was over optimistic and it's time to think again.

You might disagree. But that’s not the fact of the matter, sorry.

 

[camflyer]

Perhaps worth a different thread, but Guildford must be a candidate.

Guildford may have a cathedral but it's not a city. Cambridge on the other hand is a city without a cathedral.

Cambridge is certainly going to be in a fortunate position of having direct services to Kings Cross, St Pancras, Liverpool St, London Bridge plus other London mainline stations. Maybe it shows how much influence the city has in the higher reaches of government, the civil service and the public sector.

 

[AM9]

Guildford may have a cathedral but it's not a city. Cambridge on the other hand is a city without a cathedral.

Cambridge is certainly going to be in a fortunate position of having direct services to Kings Cross, St Pancras, Liverpool St, London Bridge plus other London mainline stations. Maybe it shows how much influence the city has in the higher reaches of government, the civil service and the public sector.

Maybe it is just a measure of the expected growth in passenger numbers. With the continuing development of cheaper housing in East Anglia that even with the coming recession will still increase train loads, it is a way increase effective line capacity where there is a limited turnround potential at Kings Cross. With the greatly increased peak capacity of the class 700s, and the Canal Tunnel link into the core, much higher loads can now be carried as the demand increases over the next couple of decades, delivering that load to destinations throughout the core rather than dumping everybody at Finsbury Park/Kings Cross requiring them to board already packed tube trains. That's how Thameslink on the MML has coped with far higher numbers than Kings Cross could for nearly 30 years.

 

[bramling]

How odd then that the preview services seem to have been well loaded through the core with passengers to / from the ECML.

Terrible reliability? Thameslink has just had the best ever Autumn / Winter I can remember.

National media attention - prompted by a small number of people, including some from these very pages no doubt. Meanwhile the same seats have been on many other trains for years....

It can’t suit everybody. But it is for the greater good.

It's pretty delusional to think that the national media attention came from here.

Meanwhile, in reality, it's not just the seats, but the way they're arranged with minimal legroom, failure to specify what people expect (e.g. tables), and squashed too much up against the sides of the train with many seats having a substantial intrusion into what should be the legroom - both the ducting and the cantilevers.

 

[crazystripe]

Yesterday’s 18:12 from KX to PBO (12-car Class 700) was unable to call at Arlesey, Biggleswade and Sandy due to a delay earlier in its journey, meaning the station staff at these places had left for the day at 7pm. This meant, apparently, that the 12-car service couldn’t call there. 200 or so passengers were kicked off at Hitchin, so faced a further delay.

With all Thameslink services on this route (2TPH) moving to 12-car Class 700 from May onwards, does this mean stations require staffing right through until the end of service?

 

[jon0844]

700s will self dispatch at all stations in due course I'm sure. Already happened at some stations. Likewise with the 387s.

Another reason why the remaining 365s will be arranged carefully with dispatch in mind, and ultimately will become unwanted on the route.

 

[Fred26]

Yesterday’s 18:12 from KX to PBO (12-car Class 700) was unable to call at Arlesey, Biggleswade and Sandy due to a delay earlier in its journey, meaning the station staff at these places had left for the day at 7pm. This meant, apparently, that the 12-car service couldn’t call there. 200 or so passengers were kicked off at Hitchin, so faced a further delay.

With all Thameslink services on this route (2TPH) moving to 12-car Class 700 from May onwards, does this mean stations require staffing right through until the end of service?

The problem with these stations is that the staff are part time. The shifts are four hours in the morning and four in the evening. Since they were first introduced if one of the shifts is short, someone from the opposite end of the day will usually stay on and work 12 hours, resulting in a 0700-1900 shift. However, the late turns actually finish at 2000. GTR have never bothered to cover these shifts properly, instead they've relied on good will. The problem is that come 1901, those staff on 12 hours are breaking hidden and could find themselves in trouble if they stay beyond that time.

 

[bramling]

700s will self dispatch at all stations in due course I'm sure. Already happened at some stations. Likewise with the 387s.

Another reason why the remaining 365s will be arranged carefully with dispatch in mind, and ultimately will become unwanted on the route.

Presumably what happens is more down to the drivers than what GTR would like? I'm sure GTR never wanted the extent of dispatch we see today.

 

[jon0844]

Presumably what happens is more down to the drivers than what GTR would like? I'm sure GTR never wanted the extent of dispatch we see today.

Drivers now have new terms as part of their pay rise. That's what will prompt changes over the coming days/weeks/months.

 

[bramling]

Drivers now have new terms as part of their pay rise. That's what will prompt changes over the coming days/weeks/months.

I see. So much for the dispatch being about safety then!

 

[jon0844]

I see. So much for the dispatch being about safety then!

But these trains have bodyside cameras and should be safer with a driver able to see everything. 365s are now rather out of place, especially when the 313s are gone.

Every station and indeed every platform will still be risk assessed so dispatchers aren't going anywhere just yet.

 

[BRblue]

Drivers now have new terms as part of their pay rise. That's what will prompt changes over the coming days/weeks/months.

Really...
I was under the impression that the new T&C's and payrise were specific to Southern regarding DOO and didn't effect Thameslink, as they had an existing deal which already covered DOO.

 

[jon0844]

They've always been DOO. It's other things, including working on Sundays (not all by any means but they must now do some, which should solve the driver issues on that day) that have or are changing.

 

[APUK002]

But these trains have bodyside cameras and should be safer with a driver able to see everything. 365s are now rather out of place, especially when the 313s are gone.

Every station and indeed every platform will still be risk assessed so dispatchers aren't going anywhere just yet.

Of course safety is paramount,platforms risk assessment before convert to DOO GN700 despatch.

 

[IKB]

Drivers now have new terms as part of their pay rise. That's what will prompt changes over the coming days/weeks/months.

Eh? What "new terms" do Thameslink drivers have coming into affect in the next few months that affects DOO operation? Please detail.

 

[jon0844]

The changes aren't for the drivers. The changes are at stations. Drivers are capable of dispatching themselves on 387s and 700s and since the pay deal, ASLEF has apparently agreed to allow this to happen at more stations depending on the outcome of their own risk assessments.

This was agreed between management and ASLEF as part of the pay deal. As I'm sure people are aware, a year or so ago an awful lot of people were hired to dispatch at stations that didn't have dispatch previously.

 

[APUK002]

700s will self dispatch at all stations in due course I'm sure. Already happened at some stations. Likewise with the 387s.

Another reason why the remaining 365s will be arranged carefully with dispatch in mind, and ultimately will become unwanted on the route.

So GN 700’s will soon be DOO despatch (unless station uses CD/RA method)?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

How odd then that the preview services seem to have been well loaded through the core with passengers to / from the ECML.

Terrible reliability? Thameslink has just had the best ever Autumn / Winter I can remember.

National media attention - prompted by a small number of people, including some from these very pages no doubt. Meanwhile the same seats have been on many other trains for years....

It can’t suit everybody. But it is for the greater good.

For what it is worth , spotted an ex GN route "preview" 700 last Monday , heading southbound - remarkably well loaded ..

 

[jon0844]

So GN 700’s will soon be DOO despatch (unless station uses CD/RA method)?

Already the case at some stations. As you say CD/RA is unaffected.

 

[APUK002]

Already the case at some stations. As you say CD/RA is unaffected.

Oo,ok,super

 

[Bald Rick]

Guildford may have a cathedral but it's not a city. Cambridge on the other hand is a city without a cathedral.

Cambridge is certainly going to be in a fortunate position of having direct services to Kings Cross, St Pancras, Liverpool St, London Bridge plus other London mainline stations. Maybe it shows how much influence the city has in the higher reaches of government, the civil service and the public sector.

Must be the same for Chatham (with services to St Pancras, London Bridge, Cannon St, Charing X and Victoria).

 

[OFFDN]

Don’t disagree but my problem is.
1. GTR published the date. They shouldn’t have if it wasn’t certain.
2. The situation we are in now is worse of both worlds. Some loaded some not. How is the normal user supposed to know if they have seen point 1. Not uploading any would surely be better.
3. It is costing customers real money. They can’t book APs to their local station. They either need to book to KX / Stevenage and hope the can continue the journey or watch the cheapest tiers sell out.
Are they and / or network rail not in breach of t-12 now?

1. GTR published the date only because NR absolutely promised that the timetable would be entirely uploaded on that Friday night.
2. Some are loaded and some are not because NR decided they were going to make further changes to what they had offered back to the TOC and promised to upload on that Friday night.

Network Rail are well aware they are in breach of T-12. In fact, I can't see accurate timetables that reflect weekend engineering works and any STP requirements being uploaded until T-5 (mid April) at the earliest.

 

[Downthelane]

Yet more 313 failures this morning. How can the GN timetable be made to work if more sem-fast paths use the slow and the 313's are failing or more usually late due to their loading and slow acceleration. And to see that the surplus 365's have gone to Ely and into storage rather that replace the 313 on some existing semi-fast to KGX is shocking. Have you ever tried to board the 7.20 from Letchworth after WGC?

 

[Hadders]

There aren’t any more trains in the peak, in fact from Stevenage there are fewer as things currently stand!

 

[sefton]

There aren’t any more trains in the peak, in fact from Stevenage there are fewer as things currently stand!

And amusingly where there may be more capacity on additional slow trains, those trains are not only hidden in a timetable search on National Rail as they are overtaken by slower trains (normal people don't use the advance search) but they are hidden in GNR's own app with no way to make them show.

 

[sefton]

GN the rubbish WiFi leading to a duplicate post.

 

[Downthelane]

There aren’t any more trains in the peak, in fact from Stevenage there are fewer as things currently stand!

As things stand yes but the timetable is incomplete and it's the extra services that are causing the issue as they have routed too many trains on the slow line and now realised that it's not going to work on GN.

In fact many scoffed day 24TPH through the core, the challenge is actually achieving that on GN.

If some of the proposed Cambridge to KGX services are routed on the slow in the morning peak from May then it won't work as the 313 will immediately screw up timings.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yet more 313 failures this morning. How can the GN timetable be made to work if more sem-fast paths use the slow and the 313's are failing or more usually late due to their loading and slow acceleration. And to see that the surplus 365's have gone to Ely and into storage rather that replace the 313 on some existing semi-fast to KGX is shocking. Have you ever tried to board the 7.20 from Letchworth after WGC?

Today as well? I must have got lucky. Yesterday was a pig.

I suspect maintenance is down to an absolute minimum on the 313s making them worse then they should be with TLC. Yes they are 40 years old and won’t last forever, I just don’t think GTR are trying as hard as they can to keep them running.

For interest how does the 0720 get to Letchworth. My understanding is it overnights from a previous days Moorgate working so they will need run a couple of empties to help.

 

[Failed Unit]

As things stand yes but the timetable is incomplete and it's the extra services that are causing the issue as they have routed too many trains on the slow line and now realised that it's not going to work on GN.

In fact many scoffed day 24TPH through the core, the challenge is actually achieving that on GN.

If some of the proposed Cambridge to KGX services are routed on the slow in the morning peak from May then it won't work as the 313 will immediately screw up timings.

To be honest when I saw both the drafts I thought this is extremely fragile and the will be skip stopping even with the slightest hint of disruption. (Even without the 313s)

I still can’t see how the path blocking on the 2 track Welwyn North section was ever agreed by Network rail and the IC operations. Considering the demand at that station does it really warrant blocking the entire ECML twice per hour?

WGC will also be a problem, in disruption platforms 3&4 already become blocked delaying entry of trains heading to Welwyn North. Again when they lose the path the delays quickly snowball.

I understand from railway men that moving the train to the carriage sidings or shunting to platform 1 doesn’t really help the occupation of platform 3&4.