Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[northwichcat]

1) It's Quicker.
2) Changing trains is easier.
3) People from Huddersfield get the Train to Wakefield direct, (no idea what you're on about going to Mirfield).
4) GC services are 5 car 180's, there are no plans for running longer Trains, and non of the intermediate Station Platforms will accommodate double units.
5) the current system works well.

Is it quicker though or easier though? I've done northbound Kings Cross to Huddersfield and it only needs the service from Kings Cross to be 10 minutes late for the connection to be missed at Wakefield with another train not due for an hour.

Presuming all trains run to time if three passengers for Huddersfield board the xx:35 Kings Cross departure and passenger A changes at Wakefield, passenger B changes at Leeds and goes quickly to platform 16 and passenger C also changes at Leeds but takes their time getting to platform 16 then:

Passenger A would arrive in Huddersfield at 16 minutes past the hour
Passenger B would arrive in Huddersfield first at 9 minutes past the hour
Passenger C would arrive in Huddersfield at 28 minutes past the hour

However, the 19 minute gap between North TPE services should be reduced at the next recast.

 

[TUC]

There will be winners, there will be losers, that's always been the case with these plans.

Northern have pretty much purely presented it as improvements in their publicity.

See for example https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/news/latest-news/277-northern-franchise-timeline .

Nothing about winners and losers there.

 

[Starmill]

It's exactly the same fare via Leeds or Manchester isn't It? Unless someone goes for VTWC's rip off Via Manchester fares, in which case it costs more.

The Anytime fare is the same regardless of which way you go and for an Off-Peak fare it's cheaper to go via Manchester.

 

[Mathew S]

Northern have pretty much purely presented it as improvements in their publicity.

See for example https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/news/latest-news/277-northern-franchise-timeline .

Nothing about winners and losers there.

They're a business who want to attract customers. What on earth do you expect them to do?!

 

[Starmill]

1) It's Quicker.

Huddersfield to London at 0731, changing at Manchester Piccadilly, 2h 55.
Huddersfield to London at 0735, changing at Wakefield Westgate, 3h.

Which out of those two is quicker?

2) Changing trains is easier.

Is it really? Both stations have full step free access and there is ample time to make the interchange. Through trains will certainly be preferred to changes though, of course.

3) People from Huddersfield get the Train to Wakefield direct, (no idea what you're on about going to Mirfield).

Other posters mentioned Mirfield so I was responding. People travelling from Huddersfield to Wakefield will continue to have direct trains. I do not understand why you keep implying that they won't. They will and that's the end of it.

4) GC services are 5 car 180's, there are no plans for running longer Trains, and non of the intermediate Station Platforms will accommodate double units.

That's not true actually, they have stated their aspiration to lease all 14 180s, which would lead to 10 car workings to and from London.

5) the current system works well.

Does it? There are currently no direct Huddersfield to London services. I think most people would strongly prefer direct trains which are proposed. Don't you agree?

 

[northwichcat]

Nothing about winners and losers there.

With any changes there will be losers. For example, if you currently have an hourly service with trains at xx:00 and the way the timetable works for a half-hourly service is the services have to be at xx:45 and xx:15 then some people will be inconvenienced as the xx:00 is the ideal time for them.

 

[Starmill]

Nothing about winners and losers there.

Who is losing and what, exactly, and in specific detail, as a result of a Huddersfield to Castleford service? I cannot see a downside and you have failed to present one.

 

[lejog]

The Huddersfield-Kirkgate-Castleford services were specified back in the tender documents by the DfT at the behest of Rail North, WYCTA and presumably Wakefield council and are as such a franchise commitment, Northern have little choice in the matter.

I suspect the priority of the local councils is to improve transport links in the local area and they are not too concerned whether passengers from Huddersfield to London change at Westgate or Leeds.

 

[TUC]

Who is losing and what, exactly, and in specific detail, as a result of a Huddersfield to Castleford service? I cannot see a downside and you have failed to present one.

Mirfield to London on timings and frequency similar to the present?

 

[TUC]

Huddersfield to London at 0731, changing at Manchester Piccadilly, 2h 55.
Huddersfield to London at 0735, changing at Wakefield Westgate, 3h.

Which out of those two is quicker?

I see you haven't given a Mirfield example.

 

[Starmill]

And how are they losing out? You have not set it out.

But let's entertain your notion that they somehow are. Mirfield has direct London services. There will be more in future. It's a small town and the vast majority of similar towns in the region have no trains to London. The station is rundown and has no facilities, so it's unlikely many people rail-head to there.

 

[Starmill]

I see you haven't given a Mirfield example.

Well the post called for a Huddersfield to London example, and chastised me for bringing Mirfield into it. So why don't you come up with an example, if you're so convinced there's an issue?

 

[northwichcat]

The Huddersfield-Kirkgate-Castleford services were specified back in the tender documents by the DfT at the behest of Rail North, WYCTA and presumably Wakefield council and are as such a franchise commitment, Northern have little choice in the matter.

Indeed. We had discussion about the pros and cons of the change in 2016 in the "Northern franchise awarded to Arriva" thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-franchise-awarded-to-arriva.124133/page-47

It would be more worthy of discussion in this thread if for some reason Northern are no longer going to run a Huddersfield-Castleford service.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

And how are they losing out? You have not set it out.

But let's entertain your notion that they somehow are. Mirfield has direct London services. There will be more in future. It's a small town and the vast majority of similar towns in the region have no trains to London. The station is rundown and has no facilities, so it's unlikely many people rail-head to there.

You really have zero idea.

https://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/plan-squeeze-more-parking-busy-14159869

The parking nightmare at one of Kirklees’ busiest train stations will be tackled this year, rail bosses have promised.

The number of people using Mirfield station – which serves commuters heading to Huddersfield, Leeds, Wakefield and London – has rocketed in recent years.

But with just 35 spaces in its car park, its popularity has caused chaos on the surrounding roads prompting Kirklees Council to install extra double yellow lines.

Mirfield councillors and MPs have been pushing for improvements to the station for years.

Now rail infrastructure company Network Rail has vowed to create two new parking areas.

 

[TUC]

Well the post called for a Huddersfield to London example, and chastised me for bringing Mirfield into it. So why don't you come up with an example, if you're so convinced there's an issue?

OK

0640 Mirfield to London KX, chsnging at Wakefield Westgate. Arrive London 0858. Travel time 2 hours 18 minutes

0636 Mirfield to London KX, changing at Leeds. Arrive London 0929. Travel time 2 hours 53 minutes

0708 Mirfield to London Euston, changingvat Dewsbury and Manchester Picadilly. Ariive London 1026. Travel time 3 hours 17 minutes.

The change therefore gives a time penalty to Mirfield passengers of between 35 and 59 minutes.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Mirfield to London on timings and frequency similar to the present?

No.
Change at Wakefield Kirkgate AND Westgate, or go via Leeds, and wait longer for the connection.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

OK

0640 Mirfield to London KX, chsnging at Wakefield Westgate. Arrive London 0858. Travel time 2 hours 18 minutes

0636 Mirfield to London KX, changing at Leeds. Arrive London 0929. Travel time 2 hours 53 minutes

0708 Mirfield to London Euston, changingvat Dewsbury and Manchester Picadilly. Ariive London 1026. Total travel time 3 hours 17 minutes.

The change therefore gives a time penalty to Mirfield passengers of between 35 and 59 minutes.

I know, facts eh?

 

[Mathew S]

You really have zero idea.

John, we're trying to be helpful but we need to understand what it is you want. I've explained pricing/fare issues and others have covered journey times. I, and I gather others, am not quite sure what it is about the upcoming changes you have an issue with. Perhaps I'm just being thick, but if you could spell out some specific questions/problems then maybe we can help explain the reasoning or find some solutions.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Indeed. We had discussion about the pros and cons of the change in 2016 in the "Northern franchise awarded to Arriva" thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-franchise-awarded-to-arriva.124133/page-47

It would be more worthy of discussion in this thread if for some reason Northern are no longer going to run a Huddersfield-Castleford service.

You mean if sanity prevailed?

 

[Andrew Nelson]

John, we're trying to be helpful but we need to understand what it is you want. I've explained pricing/fare issues and others have covered journey times. I, and I gather others, am not quite sure what it is about the upcoming changes you have an issue with. Perhaps I'm just being thick, but if you could spell out some specific questions/problems then maybe we can help explain the reasoning or find some solutions.

Both myself and TUC have made it quite clear.

Many journey opportunities are being made either more difficult, or take longer.
People in Huddersfield will not get a train any faster to Leeds as the ones now, and many will be slower. (TPX at present either non-stop, or just one at Dewsbury).
People in Huddersfield and Mirfield will have to change twice, or go a longer route and change at one of the busiest stations in the north of England.
The Huddersfield to Westgate shuttles were there so as to avoid going into and out of Leeds.
Many local stations will lose their connections to the next station. Meaning longer journeys and higher fares.
Many TPX trains will be slower, as they will be stopping at more smaller Stations.
Some local services will be starting further out, giving more chance of delays.(Vic to Leeds via Dewsbury will now start at Wigan or even Southport.) (Huddersfield to Leeds stopper will start all the way back at Manchester Piccadilly).

 

[Andrew Nelson]

OK

0640 Mirfield to London KX, chsnging at Wakefield Westgate. Arrive London 0858. Travel time 2 hours 18 minutes

0636 Mirfield to London KX, changing at Leeds. Arrive London 0929. Travel time 2 hours 53 minutes

0708 Mirfield to London Euston, changingvat Dewsbury and Manchester Picadilly. Ariive London 1026. Travel time 3 hours 17 minutes.

The change therefore gives a time penalty to Mirfield passengers of between 35 and 59 minutes.

Can't argue with that.

 

[Mathew S]

Both myself and TUC have made it quite clear.

Many journey opportunities are being made either more difficult, or take longer.
People in Huddersfield will not get a train any faster to Leeds as the ones now, and many will be slower. (TPX at present either non-stop, or just one at Dewsbury).
People in Huddersfield and Mirfield will have to change twice, or go a longer route and change at one of the busiest stations in the north of England.
The Huddersfield to Westgate shuttles were there so as to avoid going into and out of Leeds.
Many local stations will lose their connections to the next station. Meaning longer journeys and higher fares.
Many TPX trains will be slower, as they will be stopping at more smaller Stations.
Some local services will be starting further out, giving more chance of delays.(Vic to Leeds via Dewsbury will now start at Wigan or even Southport.) (Huddersfield to Leeds stopper will start all the way back at Manchester Piccadilly).

Thank you

Mirfield is keeping its direct service to London, and will (I think - though we don't know yet since TPE have yet to publish) keep some TPE services to Huddersfield and Leeds.

Which local stations are you saying will lose direct services to the next station? I'm struggling to see how that would result in a fare increase. A point-to-point fare will always be valid via the shortest route, even if that is more convoluted than it would have been previously.

Your point about the services starting further afield and potential reliability/punctuality issues is a valid one, but that was specified by the DfT I'm afraid - nothing to do with Northern.

At the end of the day, though, we come back to the fact that the railway isn't there to serve your needs, or mine, but to provide the best compromise it can that works for as many people as possible. That's always going to mean some people lose out.

 

[northwichcat]

Does anyone have any news about when Northern will release details of which changes are going ahead in May?

 

[TUC]

At the end of the day, though, we come back to the fact that the railway isn't there to serve your needs, or mine, but to provide the best compromise it can that works for as many people as possible. That's always going to mean some people lose out.

And when has Northern had any engagement with its customers to talk about the fact that some will lose out and discuss different options, as opposed to pretending it's about massive improvements?

 

[1D53]

Northern doesn't have to engage with its customers. The timetable changes being implemented as those required in the franchise agreement which was agreed and consulted by Rail North which represents PTE's, politicians and local authorities - everything has already been 'consulted'.

 

[Starmill]

OK

0640 Mirfield to London KX, chsnging at Wakefield Westgate. Arrive London 0858. Travel time 2 hours 18 minutes

0636 Mirfield to London KX, changing at Leeds. Arrive London 0929. Travel time 2 hours 53 minutes

0708 Mirfield to London Euston, changingvat Dewsbury and Manchester Picadilly. Ariive London 1026. Travel time 3 hours 17 minutes.

The change therefore gives a time penalty to Mirfield passengers of between 35 and 59 minutes.

But you've used an overtaken journey for comparison purposes? Clearly not a fair comparison.

Taking into account new Mirfield to Leeds times and an increase in Leeds to London frequency there is very unlikely to be a problem.

Anyway as neither of those things are to do with Northern I think you've already derailed this thread enough and should move on.

 

[Starmill]

I know, facts eh?

I know. Facts like the fact that Mirfield to London has direct trains which similar sized towns elsewhere in the county don't have. Facts like the fact that people using Featherstone want a direct train to Leeds. Or facts like the fact that people from Castleford and Normanton travel to Huddersfield. Facts like the fact that these things are all franchise commitments.

If you want to continue to ignore everything I've said and complain about a very peripheral issue that is not supported by facts (because the timetable isn't available yet) then I would suggest you created a dedicated thread to discuss issues for Mirfield to London passengers excluding those who use Grand Central services.

 

[Spartacus]

So, the claim here is that people who live in Huddersfield will walk, cycle, drive or get the bus to Mirfield? Even when Huddersfield has faster trains to Leeds, the same train to Wakefield and direct trains to London, and the station has decent facilities, unlike Mirfield? Why, excatly?

Because most people who live in the Huddersfield area don't live in the centre of Huddersfield, which is a pain to get into, and an even bigger pain to park in for long periods, they will likely find Mirfield an easy station to get trains from, and for many it will be their closest with parking. I can't exactly see many walking or getting the bus to it from the Huddersfield area (they might prefer Deighton), but there's plenty that do drive there. As well as Huddersfield it's convenient for many of the Spen valley towns like Cleckheaton, and Heckmondwike because fares and parking are cheaper than from Dewsbury.

I've no doubt there's a good many that prefer to travel via Westgate rather than Leeds because, unlike the vast majority on this forum, they don't travel by train very often and find the prospect of negotiating an unfamiliar, very large station like Leeds quite intimidating, especially with luggage, and if they have to change prefer a much smaller station like Westgate with just two platforms, compared to the 17 of Leeds. Yes, East Coast might normally only use half a dozen platforms, but that's still six times the number they use from Westgate. Try to make them use a station they feel uncomfortable using to change trains, or introduce another change of trains when they're only just happy with the one they have and one way or another they will swap rails for roads.

True, Mirfield has Grand Central, but I bet there's plenty who have suffered one being cancelled throwing them into a panic about what to do next when the next GC might be in 2.5 hours, or the day after. Given they're likely to be infrequent travellers they're not likely to find being told they can go to Wakefield or Leeds and travel via East Coast very reassuring. They likely to either just say they can't be bothered again or that they might as well have planned that, and go with the familiar and high frequency.

 

[lejog]

Can't argue with that.

You most certainly can - the 6.40 at 2hr 18mins is not typical as the train runs fast from Westgate to London. Journey times for later trains from Mirfield to London via Kirkgate are:

7.44am - 2hr 51m
8.40am - 2hr 48m
9.40am - 2h 48m
10.40, 11.40, 12.40 to 18.40 - 2hr 47m to 2hr 58m

Journey times via Leeds apart from a couple of early morning trains are 2hr 50m to 2hr 52m.

So sod all difference.

There really is a load of non-factual nonsense being posted on this thread and (others concerning TPE/Northern changes) in the last couple of days, I've added a couple of posters added to the Ignored Users list.

 

[Mathew S]

Does anyone have any news about when Northern will release details of which changes are going ahead in May?

7th April, as far as I know.