Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[yorksrob]

Oy, don't you be trying to scupper the long-awaited improvement to Elsecar's services!

Elsecar isn't getting an extra train as such, it's just having its stop on the Sheffield-Huddersfield line reinstated a mere 14 years after it was bafflingly withdrawn, so we had the farcical situation where Sheffield-Huddersfield trains stopped at every station except Elsecar.

Elsecar and Normanton aren't really comparable anyway as, according to a work colleague who lives there, Normanton has a fast and frequent bus service to both Wakefield and Castleford, which runs every 10 minutes so and thus will connect with the train without too much of a wait. Yes, you could look at stopping some of the fast Barnsley expresses there, but once you start stopping fast trains at relatively minor stations, they cease to be express trains!

Well, of course, I would far rather Normanton was provided with a decent service than other stops suffer a setback.

That said, I can't possibly agree with your argument. Normanton does indeed have a good bus service to Wakefield and Castleford, however the main rail market is to Leeds, just as I suspect Elsecar's is to Sheffield. It cannot be logical that one of the most well patronised of the intermediate stations on the route is stuck with an hourly service when other stops with fewer passengers have half hourly.

It seems inexplicable that Barnsley is regarded as so deserving of 'express' trains that it is deemed acceptable to leave other important traffic generators with an inadequate service. The only explanation I can come up with is that SYPTE regards the Hallam line as some sort of fiefdom do the detriment of other users.

 

[Starmill]

Northern's Huddersfield to Wakefield Westgate service serves an important function in providing a quick link from stations such as Mirfield onto the ECML.

This is correct. Mirfield and Huddersfield will have no problems with ECML connectivity though, as they have faster and higher quality links to Leeds.

As Yorksrob said, the benefit of this is also that there will be through trains to Leeds for Pontefract Tanshelf, Featherstone and Streethouse for the first time. This began on Sundays in the December timetable.

 

[TUC]

This is correct. Mirfield and Huddersfield will have no problems with ECML connectivity though, as they have faster and higher quality links to Leeds.

.

That might be the case with Huddersfield, but Mirfield passengers having to go via Leeds will have a longer journey, point to point, to London or indeed other ECML/Cross Country destinations.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

This is correct. Mirfield and Huddersfield will have no problems with ECML connectivity though, as they have faster and higher quality links to Leeds.

As Yorksrob said, the benefit of this is also that there will be through trains to Leeds for Pontefract Tanshelf, Featherstone and Streethouse for the first time. This began on Sundays in the December timetable.

Huddersfield to Leeds to Wakefield, will still take longer than Huddersfield to Wakefield (WG) does direct today.

 

[Starmill]

Huddersfield to Leeds to Wakefield, will still take longer than Huddersfield to Wakefield (WG) does direct today.

If Wakefield is the destination then it will take the same time as today, so I don't see how there's a problem.

 

[Starmill]

Mirfield passengers having to go via Leeds will have a longer journey, point to point, to London or indeed other ECML/Cross Country destinations.

Do you think? That's far from clear? You haven't seen the timetable for Mirfield to London journeys? And whats more how many people make Mirfield to London journeys not on direct trains?

 

[Andrew Nelson]

If Wakefield is the destination then it will take the same time as today, so I don't see how there's a problem.

How can it possibly take the same time as today?

Huddersfield to Leeds ~20 mins.
Min change at Leeds 10 mins. (London fast only every 30 mins, so could take upto 30 mins)
Leeds to Wakefield (KG) ~15 mins.

Huddersfield to Wakefield Direct, ~40 mins.

Change at Wakefield usually same platform.

Why would we want all those extra passengers at Leeds?

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Do you think? That's far from clear? You haven't seen the timetable for Mirfield to London journeys? And whats more how many people make Mirfield to London journeys not on direct trains?

Looking at the number with big cases that get on at Mirfield, quite a lot actually.

 

[Starmill]

How can it possibly take the same time as today?

If someone is travelling from Huddersfield to Wakefield, and their destination is in Wakefield, then clearly there will be no meaningful difference between the current time and the future time. There would be no need to travel via Leeds, but naturally it remains an option.

For someone who is travelling from Huddersfield to London, most of the journeys will continue to be via Manchester Piccadilly or via Leeds, as now, with no obvious loss of connectivity. Remember that through trains will soon be available. For someone travelling from Mirfield to London my money would be that almost all of these people already use the through trains.

I do not see the problem.

 

[TUC]

Looking at the number with big cases that get on at Mirfield, quite a lot actually.

That was part of the focus of the discussion on my train from Mirfield-that there were a lot of passengers changing at Wakefield for Kings Cross.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

That was part of the focus of the discussion on my train from Mirfield-that there were a lot of passengers changing at Wakefield for Kings Cross.

Looks like there will be a lot of very unhappy people if it ever comes to pass.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

If someone is travelling from Huddersfield to Wakefield, and their destination is in Wakefield, then clearly there will be no meaningful difference between the current time and the future time. There would be no need to travel via Leeds, but naturally it remains an option.

For someone who is travelling from Huddersfield to London, most of the journeys will continue to be via Manchester Piccadilly or via Leeds, as now, with no obvious loss of connectivity. Remember that through trains will soon be available. For someone travelling from Mirfield to London my money would be that almost all of these people already use the through trains.

I do not see the problem.

The question was about access to the ECML.
The cost via Leeds is more.
The market for London, is a great deal more than just the direct GC services, as none of them get to KX before 9am. (or 10am actually).

 

[Starmill]

Looks like there will be a lot of very unhappy people if it ever comes to pass.

It's unclear who would be unhappy or why. Mirfield to London passengers have 4 through trains, a 5th has been applied for. Huddersfield to London passengers will gain through trains for the first time in decades. New direct services to Castleford will be available from both stations. New direct services to Leeds will be available from Pontefract Tanshelf, Featherstone and Streethouse. It's hard to see anyone who is hard done by.

 

[TUC]

For someone travelling from Mirfield to London my money would be that almost all of these people already use the through trains.

I do not see the problem.

See my post above. I think just lost your money.

The other issue is thst the through GC trains are too infrequent and the first arrives in London too late to be an alternative. The first GC arrives in London around 1010. However the 0640 from Mirfield changing in Wakefield arrives 0859.

 

[Starmill]

The question was about access to the ECML.
The cost via Leeds is more.

This isn't true. Huddersfield to London costs the same if you wish to travel via Wakefield regardless of whether you go via Leeds or not. It's cheaper to travel via Manchester.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

It's unclear who would be unhappy or why. Mirfield to London passengers have 4 through trains, a 5th has been applied for. Huddersfield to London passengers will gain through trains for the first time in decades. New direct services to Castleford will be available from both stations.

With the greatest of respect, who wants to go to Castleford?

New direct services to Leeds will be available from Pontefract Tanshelf, Featherstone and Streethouse. It's hard to see anyone who is hard done by.

Well the thousands of people who want to go to London this year, not if and when Huddersfield gets a far slower service to the Capital in a few years.

https://www.examiner.co.uk/news/fears-proposed-direct-train-service-14330725

 

[Andrew Nelson]

See my post above. I think just lost your money.

The other issue is thst the through GC trains are too infrequent and the first arrives in London too late to be an alternative. The first GC arrives in London around 1010. However the 0640 from Mirfield changing in Wakefield arrives 0859.

The 05:40 from Mirfield got you to the Wakefield conection and into the Capital for 08:33

An impossibility via Leeds, and not possible from May.

 

[Starmill]

See my post above. I think just lost your money.

So you are saying that Mirfield to London is such a significant flow that 4 (likely soon to be 5) trains per day are inadequate, and we should plan intercity trains around meeting that demand? And you have considered the size of the area served by Mirfield, and the facilities the station offers in that? Somehow I do not believe you? And you are more concerned about demand from Mirfield to London being inadequatley served by their 4 through trains per day than places like Bingley, Knaresborough, Bridlington, Barnsley, Castleford or Scarborough being inadequately served by their 0 through trains?

 

[Starmill]

With the greatest of respect, who wants to go to Castleford?

What do you mean? Why should Mirfield have London services when Castelford has none? Are you telling me that nobody from Normanton or Castleford ever visits Huddersfield? I fear there may be someone in this very thread who makes a journey like that often.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

So you are saying that Mirfield to London is such a significant flow that 4 (likely soon to be 5) trains per day are inadequate, and we should plan intercity trains around meeting that demand? And you have considered the size of the area served by Mirfield, and the facilities the station offers in that? Somehow I do not believe you? And you are more concerned about demand from Mirfield to London being inadequatley served by their 4 through trains per day than places like Bingley, Knaresborough, Bridlington, Barnsley, Castleford or Scarborough being inadequately served by their 0 through trains?

I've no problems with other places having more and additional services.

Mirfield serves a very large area, including Huddersfield.
The GC services now are very often full.
The Mirfield to London flow is a well used one.
The Huddersfield to Wakefield service was introduced for the purpose of serving the London Trains. (and has worked well for many decades).

 

[Andrew Nelson]

What do you mean? Why should Mirfield have London services when Castelford has none? Are you telling me that nobody from Normanton or Castleford ever visits Huddersfield? I fear there may be someone in this very thread who makes a journey like that often.

Castleford will have none from May anyway, so what's your point?
Castleford will however gain direct services to Wakefield (WG), Mirfield and Huddersfield will lose theirs.

 

[Starmill]

Mirfield serves a very large area, including Huddersfield.

So, the claim here is that people who live in Huddersfield will walk, cycle, drive or get the bus to Mirfield? Even when Huddersfield has faster trains to Leeds, the same train to Wakefield and direct trains to London, and the station has decent facilities, unlike Mirfield? Why, excatly?

The GC services now are very often full.

Indeed but they will be increasing in length and as I have pointed out many times there will probably be more services. A small town like Mirfield having any through trains to London is unusual. Once Huddersfield to London services begin, I expect that fewer people will use GC from Mirfield.

The Huddersfield to Wakefield service was introduced for the purpose of serving the London Trains.

So what? I would bet that far more people travel via Manchester or Leeds as there are a lot more journey opportunities and they wouldn't risk travelling on a pacer.

 

[TUC]

This isn't true. Huddersfield to London costs the same if you wish to travel via Wakefield regardless of whether you go via Leeds or not. It's cheaper to travel via Manchester.

It's exactly the same fare via Leeds or Manchester isn't It? Unless someone goes for VTWC's rip off Via Manchester fares, in which case it costs more.

 

[TUC]

Castleford will have none from May anyway, so what's your point?
Castleford will however gain direct services to Wakefield (WG), Mirfield and Huddersfield will lose theirs.

Surely that's the point. For one town to gain a service but for others to lose their isn't the great improvement Northern claims. It's just rearranging the deck chairs.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

So, the claim here is that people who live in Huddersfield will walk, cycle, drive or get the bus to Mirfield? Even when Huddersfield has faster trains to Leeds, the same train to Wakefield and direct trains to London, and the station has decent facilities, unlike Mirfield? Why, excatly?

Indeed but they will be increasing in length and as I have pointed out many times there will probably be more services. A small town like Mirfield having any through trains to London is unusual. Once Huddersfield to London services begin, I expect that fewer people will use GC from Mirfield.

So what? I would bet that far more people travel via Manchester or Leeds as there are a lot more journey opportunities and they wouldn't risk travelling on a pacer.

1) It's Quicker.
2) Changing trains is easier.
3) People from Huddersfield get the Train to Wakefield direct, (no idea what you're on about going to Mirfield).
4) GC services are 5 car 180's, there are no plans for running longer Trains, and non of the intermediate Station Platforms will accommodate double units.
5) the current system works well.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

It's exactly the same fare via Leeds or Manchester isn't It? Unless someone goes for VTWC's rip off Via Manchester fares, in which case it costs more.

GC costs a good deal less.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

These new northern services (or the TPX replacements) are by the looks of it going to cause quite a few direct, or easy connections to disappear.

 

[Mathew S]

Surely that's the point. For one town to gain a service but for others to lose their isn't the great improvement Northern claims. It's just rearranging the deck chairs.

There will be winners, there will be losers, that's always been the case with these plans. I think Northern would say that it's a necessary realignment of said deckchairs to achieve as many improvements to services as they can deliver.

GC costs a good deal less.

Really? The cheapest Off-Peak Return is a via Manchester ticket, and the cheapest Advances are with EMT+Connections. That's from either Huddersfield or Mirfield to London. And for Anytime tickets, the "ANY PERMITTED" tickets are also cheapest for both Huddersfield and Mirfield.

 

[TUC]

Really? The cheapest Off-Peak Return is a via Manchester .

That's a very selective choice of fares, given ihe off-peak reurn not valid for services into London before 1129, and is also a significantly longer journey from Mirfield than via the ECML.

 

[Mathew S]

That's a very selective choice of fares, given it's not valid for services into London before 1129, and is also a significantly longer journey from Mirfield than via the ECML.

Which is why I also mentioned that the cheapest Anytime fare is routed "ANY PERMITTED" and so - I assume - valid either way.
The VTEC-priced ticket on the ECML is more expensive, but also faster and less restrictive then the VTWC ticket via Manchester. You pay less for accepting more restrictions on when you can travel and making a longer journey, fairly common, that, is it not? Either way, this has nothing to do with Northern so let's leave it there.