Hull Trains 180s

[Gemz91]

Could GC not hire in a couple of HSTs given that their staff are probably still cleared to operate them, and then hire out 180s to HT? That would surely be the quickest solution for all parties, if any of the HST operators can spare them.

Can't see any benefit for Grand Central in doing that, unless of course there is some sort of large financial benefit for them.

 

[rustbucket]

Only 1 set scheduled to be out and about again tomorrow!

 

[westv]

Only 1 set scheduled to be out and about again tomorrow!

Thought it was more than that. Anyway, thankfully I'm on it now.

 

[robbeech]

VTEC have cancelled the 1308 from KGX (the one that calls at Retford) leaving Retford with no service for 4 hours and no HT service there either. Rough end of the deal yet again.

Sorry, slightly OT,

 

[Swimbar]

VTEC have cancelled the 1308 from KGX (the one that calls at Retford) leaving Retford with no service for 4 hours and no HT service there either. Rough end of the deal yet again.

Sorry, slightly OT,

1335 ex KX is calling at Retford

 

[robbeech]

1335 ex KX is calling at Retford

I have started a polite discussion this morning via a couple of methods and suggested this to them as a better alternative to the “get the 1330 to Doncaster and toad transport back” drivel they were suggesting

I’m not in any way claiming that my suggestion is what has prompted them to change their minds but it does make more sense.

 

[MG11]

I'm not sure how they keep going if i'm honest but they keep smiling and making some trains move between some stations. It is important to note that whilst i have major issues with the TOC as they have cost me thousands of pounds in lost earnings my issue is with the top level rather than with the rest of the staff who generally do an excellent job in coping with such a poor service and putting up with us lot moaning at them.
I am not sure who maintains the hired in 180s but if we suddenly see a drop in reliability of them whilst they're with HT then we ought to know where to point the finger.

The Hull Trains Class 180s are maintained by sister company GWR at Old Oak Common Depot in West London.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Not any more. They are maintained at Crofton.

 

[rustbucket]

Not any more. They are maintained at Crofton.

Given their reliability over the last few months I'm not sure that maintained is the right word!

 

[robbeech]

What is the specific fault?
I’m not buying the snow and ice thing, not one bit. Service is the same as it was before. What components are failing? I see no reason for such new trains to be so unreliable.

 

[_toommm_]

What is the specific fault?
I’m not buying the snow and ice thing, not one bit. Service is the same as it was before. What components are failing? I see no reason for such new trains to be so unreliable.

One is definitely fairly long term out of use as it had a catastrophic failure on the south end of the ECML. Think it was a massive fuel leak or something of the like

 

[D365]

I see no reason for such new trains to be so unreliable.

"Alstom" is all you need to know

 

[Polarbear]

I understand 180110 (the Helpston casualty) is being tested with a view to getting it back in service very soon. With any luck, HT will have all 4 180's available within the next week or two.

 

[dgl]

One is definitely fairly long term out of use as it had a catastrophic failure on the south end of the ECML. Think it was a massive fuel leak or something of the like

Caused by parts of one of the engines making a break for freedom.

 

[Polarbear]

What is the specific fault?
I’m not buying the snow and ice thing, not one bit. Service is the same as it was before. What components are failing? I see no reason for such new trains to be so unreliable.

Unfortunately, the 180's aren't the most reliable trains on the planet by any stretch of the imagination! As built, they've had inherent design flaws which hasn't helped their cause over the 18 or so years they've been around. Whilst some of the "as built" issues have been addressed, the fact that it's a small fleet, that's been used by several different operators probably hasn't helped matters much. It's a pity, as for me, they are a nice train to travel on, but from an operators perspective, they're the devil in disguise!

The recent cold snap saw two of the HT 180's frozen to the point where they couldn't be operated in service, so given that 180110 was also unavailable, that didn't really leave HT with too many options, now that the default "borrow a unit of FGW" option is no longer available to them.

 

[Parallel]

I was going to suggest them borrowing a couple of 175s from ATW but then thought with the current situation with both the stock and the situation in Wales, this isn’t a good idea.

 

[humbersidejim]

What is the specific fault?
I’m not buying the snow and ice thing, not one bit. Service is the same as it was before. What components are failing? I see no reason for such new trains to be so unreliable.

Agreed - there were persistent problems and cancellations before the cold snap. The resignation of the MD seemed to have been brewing for a few weeks... It strikes me that there is more to it than just the cold weather.

I wasn't on board (a colleague was) the shortened service from DON-KGX last night which lost a lot of time, indicating their only working unit possibly isn't in the finest of conditions either, though of course there cold be lots of other reasons why it lost time:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G11016/2018/03/12/advanced

I think what is really putting passengers backs up is the lack of ticket acceptance on VTEC and the "go via sheffield" option, which takes over 4 hours. People will always complain, but if the sentiment on twitter is anything to go by, it is regarded as apparent penny pinching, and an unnaceptable solution.

Still one unit today? Perhaps it's time to rename them Hull Train. Who needs the S anyway

Usual caveat: The hard working frontline staff are fantastic as ever and have my sympathy.

 

[Crossforth]

Agreed - there were persistent problems and cancellations before the cold snap. The resignation of the MD seemed to have been brewing for a few weeks... It strikes me that there is more to it than just the cold weather.

I wasn't on board (a colleague was) the shortened service from DON-KGX last night which lost a lot of time, indicating their only working unit possibly isn't in the finest of conditions either, though of course there cold be lots of other reasons why it lost time:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G11016/2018/03/12/advanced

I think what is really putting passengers backs up is the lack of ticket acceptance on VTEC and the "go via sheffield" option, which takes over 4 hours. People will always complain, but if the sentiment on twitter is anything to go by, it is regarded as apparent penny pinching, and an unnaceptable solution.

Still one unit today? Perhaps it's time to rename them Hull Train. Who needs the S anyway

Usual caveat: The hard working frontline staff are fantastic as ever and have my sympathy.

I think the delay last night may have partially been down to a 365 causing overhead wire problems at Knebworth I think it was

 

[robbeech]

I was aware of the long term issue with the one that had a bit of a do with its fuel etc but wasn’t sure if the others were different things or the same things happening again and again leading to the question, what is stopping them being fixed properly.
What always puzzles me (and this is open to lots of stock on lots of TOC) is how it can frequently take several times longer to fix a problem on a train than it takes to build a brand new train. EMT have had some 158s our of service for in excess of a year, I’m led to believe its the same ones.
I appreciate the long term out of use one at HT was very badly damaged but I simply cannot see how these things take this long to fix. I say this not as a run of the mill passenger but someone with an engineering background and mind.

 

[rustbucket]

I was aware of the long term issue with the one that had a bit of a do with its fuel etc but wasn’t sure if the others were different things or the same things happening again and again leading to the question, what is stopping them being fixed properly.

Not sure what the underlying issue is - but I travel with HT a lot and although i've somehow dodged the cancellations recently the units that have been running have sounded like a sack of s**t and a failure waiting to happen - more so than usual

 

[cj_1985]

could it simply be down to a new maintenance provided...?
Till recently they were all (well, the GWR and HT ones) based at the depot that has maintained them from new (forgetting about the few that ventured north to work for Northern). They would know the trouble spots...

Now that Bombardier are maintaining them, it could be partly down to that

and yes I realise that the 180s use the same engine type as the Voyager/Super Voyager/Pioneer/Meridian DEMUs... so that should be one area that there should be the least issues with.

 

[rustbucket]

could it simply be down to a new maintenance provided...?
Till recently they were all (well, the GWR and HT ones) based at the depot that has maintained them from new (forgetting about the few that ventured north to work for Northern). They would know the trouble spots..

In fairness to Crofton they spent most of last summer running round with engines isolated / out of use and that was before they got their hands on them

 

[cj_1985]

In fairness to Crofton they spent most of last summer running round with engines isolated / out of use and that was before they got their hands on them

don't misunderstand me... i'm not saying Bombardier are just not maintaining the 180 to the correct standards. simply suggesting there may be a learning curve whilst getting to grips with the 180s

 

[apinnard]

The problem with the transfer of maintenance from one depot to the next is the knowledge that is accumulated over the years is lost. The fitters at the "new" depot handling the fleet have to learn the quirks of each component and each unit, and the patterns of failure.

Given that the 180 is essentially a micro fleet that has probably had many modifications by various operators over the years, they probably each have their own mechanical and electrical oddities that aren't necessarily evident on the whole fleet.

Sorry to bring the 442's up, but if you remember when they were last with SWT, Bournemouth literally had a separate manual for each member of the class, as there were so many differences between them. Perhaps this is similar to the issue that the new incumbent depot is dealing with regarding the 180s.

It's very much a similar thing in my line of work - Information Technology. I can take on the support of a customer's infrastructure, which may comprise a set of 50 machines all of the same age and build batch, but it would take me a while to work out where the gremlins are in each machine and build up a profile accordingly.

 

[swt_passenger]

What is the specific fault?
I’m not buying the snow and ice thing, not one bit. Service is the same as it was before. What components are failing? I see no reason for such new trains to be so unreliable.

180s are not 'new' by any normal definition, but nearing 20 years old...

 

[robbeech]

I’m aware of their age, but when compared to most of the other stock running over the same bits of track (certainly north of Peterborough) they’re Some of newer ones.

 

[swt_passenger]

I’m aware of their age, but when compared to most of the other stock running over the same bits of track (certainly north of Peterborough) they’re Some of newer ones.

Perhaps the way they have been passed around the various user TOCs no-one has yet gripped the long term reliability issues, as they were always assumed to be becoming someone else's future problem?

 

[cj_1985]

I think it's fair to remind everyone that the 180s went through works a few years ago to rectify some of the main faults (at least that was my understanding of the situation)... this was done by the ROSCO (iirc Angel Trains) in conjunction with the main leasers... Namely HT, FGW and GC.

That's not to say that they have no design faults or gremlins remaining.... just that attempts have been made to improve the situation.

Quite why the fleet are having so many problems of late, is something I can't answer... but for HT, I would suggest that part of the issue is -as I have already posted- the transfer or maintenance from the team at OOC, who have (more or less) maintained the fleet from new, and knew the units inside and out.

 

[Andrewh32]

Another HT 180 failed at Grantham this afternoon on what I am told was it's first service back since repair.

 

[westv]

Let's hope that the weekend cold spell doesn't produce any more of the same snow!