Discussion of transgender issues

[cactustwirly]

So you have never seen someone who looks fairly androgynous then?
Never seen a guy who you thought looked feminine, or a woman you thought looked "manly"?

Yes, but they've still looked like a man or a woman.
I've never seen anyone who doesn't appear to be either a man or a woman, which is what confuses me about "gender neutrality"

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Of course there are other factors to consider but the fact remains that the vast majority of straight men would not enter into a relationship with a man who had had gender reassignment surgery and identified as a woman. For that matter I’m not sure many gay men would want to be in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex either.



That is a highly unusual viewpoint for a straight male to hold (Munroe Bergdorf is also a vile racist, by the way, who despises the white race despite being half white himself/herself).



Mental illness is the wrong word. Gender dysphoria is nonetheless a recognised psychological condition. It is separate to sexuality. One doesn’t “suffer” from being gay or straight but it could be said that one suffers from the condition of gender dysphoria.



But someone who is born intersex has two sets of sex organs and is not someone who suffers from gender dysphoria. If they are born intersex, they are neither man nor woman (or it could be said they are both!) and I believe this is reflected in their chromosomal makeup.



They aren’t the same thing but the concepts are co-existent and interdependent. Simply saying that someone’s gender is completely separate to their sex is inaccurate in my view. If the concepts of arc and gender identity really were totally separate, why would someone who was trans gender go to the lengths of having surgery in the first place?

The biological reality is that gender roles, as we define them, are a product of nature not just nurture. Indeed studies have shown that gender roles occur in monkeys even when they are removed from their normal social situations.

https://animalwise.org/2012/01/26/born-this-way-gender-based-toy-preferences-in-primates/





Not all women have periods but all people who have periods are women. That is just one of a range of physiological and emotional characteristics that distinguish men from women.

I think many people in this country are getting heartily sick of being told what to think and being made to feel that their views are somehow bigoted and wrong just because they happen not to subscribe to the latest on trend PC thinking.

Again, you're taking your own opinion (and perhaps that of close friends or relatives) and assuming that the majority of the population share that view. I hope they don't. I certainly don't. I wouldn't refuse to date a trans person but I would refuse (and have refused) to date a bigot. The contents of the head are more important than the contents of the pants.

You have every right to hold the views you do, but therefore like all of us if you express those views publicly you should expect to have them challenged and scrutinised. My position isn't that people shouldn't be allowed to say certain things or think certain things- it's that they ought not to hold those opinions because they are flawed.

I will say though that personally if someone regularly bemoans "PC culture" it's a big red flag.

 

[najaB]

They aren’t the same thing but the concepts are co-existent and interdependent. Simply saying that someone’s gender is completely separate to their sex is inaccurate in my view.

As noted above, I agree with this - biological sex is a strong predictor of psychological gender - most people with XY sex chromosomes will identify as male.

 

[najaB]

What I am against is the upheaval of our society based on a minority point of view, which is not factually correct.

But it's neither upheaval (how is allowing people to be referred to as they want to and live the life they want to an upheaval?) nor is it factually incorrect (there are people with sex chromosomes that don't match the gender they feel).

 

[EM2]

What I am against is the upheaval of our society

No-one is asking for that.

 

[AlterEgo]

Again, you're taking your own opinion (and perhaps that of close friends or relatives) and assuming that the majority of the population share that view. I hope they don't. I certainly don't. I wouldn't refuse to date a trans person but I would refuse (and have refused) to date a bigot. The contents of the head are more important than the contents of the pants.

You have every right to hold the views you do, but therefore like all of us if you express those views publicly you should expect to have them challenged and scrutinised. My position isn't that people shouldn't be allowed to say certain things or think certain things- it's that they ought not to hold those opinions because they are flawed.

I will say though that personally if someone regularly bemoans "PC culture" it's a big red flag.

A lot of the debate is getting blown out of proportion.

There’s a serious problem with the trans community in that trans people (and particularly trans women) are seen as sexual oddities and therefore are the subject of fetish rather than attraction. There really are not that many men who genuinely would date a trans woman. I’m sorry but that’s the truth. A man being sexually attracted to a trans woman - and there’s nothing wrong with that - is probably much less common than a man being attracted to another man, and even then that’s a minority.

It just doesn’t stack up that *most men* would happily date a trans woman.

 

[AlterEgo]

No-one is asking for that.

There’s quite a sizeable genderqueer movement advocating a gender-free society where sex and gender is an irrelevance.

This should be resisted at all costs. It really would tip our society on its head. Gender roles are important and the bedrock of western civilisation.

 

[cactustwirly]

No-one is asking for that.

That is what it feels like to me.

 

[najaB]

which is what confuses me about "gender neutrality"

Gender neutrality isn't about a neutral gender, it's about not making assumptions about people based solely on their sex, or saying that they should or should do something e.g. 'Stop playing with dolls, you're a boy. Boy's don't play with dolls.'

 

[cactustwirly]

nor is it factually incorrect (there are people with sex chromosomes that don't match the gender they feel).

True, that is what a transgender person is, I have no problem with that.

But the idea of "gender neutrality" is factually incorrect as far as I'm aware.

 

[EM2]

Gender roles are important and the bedrock of western civilisation.

Why? What gender roles can only be performed by one sex?

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

If you're referring to the post which led to her being dropped from the L'Oreal campaign, I mostly agree with her (but that's heading off-topic).

You mostly agree with her saying that all white people are racist and that our very existence is based in privilege and that we are all racist based on our skin colour? What she said was nothing short of racism in itself. She judged a whole race of people based on their race alone. And now that there is backlash against her being appointed LGBT advisor for what she said, she’s crying out and playing the victim.

Why? What gender roles can only be performed by one sex?

Breastfeeding.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Yes, but they've still looked like a man or a woman.
I've never seen anyone who doesn't appear to be either a man or a woman, which is what confuses me about "gender neutrality"

Now you are confusing trans issues with gender neutrality! Sure, there is some overlap, but they are separate issues. As najaB says, gender neutrality is more about treating people equally and not assuming that someone can or can't do something because of their gender.

Ok maybe I gave the wrong impression.
But here's my views on "gender neutrality".
Obviously a minority of society is of the opinion that gender is non binary, one can be neutral of a gender and that gender is independent of Biology (especially this point).
They are perfectly entitled to have that opinion, but none of this is factually correct (can anyone name an independent scientific study to prove their point of view?)

Those who argue against gender being linked to Biology, should look at any mammal and you'll see gender roles, proving that gender roles are not unique to humans and our society.
No one has been able to give me a concrete defintion on what a man or woman is without referring to Biology.

What I am against is the upheaval of our society based on a minority point of view, which is not factually correct.

No one is asking for that though. And again I think you are confusing two issues here.

Of course there are other factors to consider but the fact remains that the vast majority of straight men would not enter into a relationship with a man who had had gender reassignment surgery and identified as a woman. For that matter I’m not sure many gay men would want to be in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex either.

And the fact remains that there are more factors to consider so without evidence you simply cannot assert that as fact.

Mental illness is the wrong word. Gender dysphoria is nonetheless a recognised psychological condition. It is separate to sexuality. One doesn’t “suffer” from being gay or straight but it could be said that one suffers from the condition of gender dysphoria.

Again missing my point. I am not saying what gender dysphoria is or isn't. I
I am saying that a lot of the arguments that are currently being used against helping people who have it or who are trans were also used against gay people not long ago. Can you not see the similarities in the way these people have been treated?

But someone who is born intersex has two sets of sex organs and is not someone who suffers from gender dysphoria. If they are born intersex, they are neither man nor woman (or it could be said they are both!) and I believe this is reflected in their chromosomal makeup.

DNA wise, yes. But in society? If the parents and medical professionals decide that a intersex child will be female and the relevant medical procedures are carried out, then as far as society cares, they are female. The only times you get questions about it are when it affects high performance sports or having kids etc. For all intents and purposes, Caster Semenya is female and is a woman. There are questions if she should be eligible for high performance competition because of the advantage her situation gives her, but in terms of the rest of society? She lived as a woman for two and a half decades before all that blew up.

I think many people in this country are getting heartily sick of being told what to think and being made to feel that their views are somehow bigoted and wrong just because they happen not to subscribe to the latest on trend PC thinking.

To be fair, I am sure racists also got "heartily sick of being told what to think" too. Doesn't mean I have any sympathy though. The same goes for homophobic people too. I have a slight bit of sympathy for those who hold the view that they simply don't understand it. But I have literally no sympathy for anyone who discriminates against, abuses, looks down on or refuses to respect someone because they are trans (and sorry, but doing those things because someone is trans IS bigoted).

This should be resisted at all costs. It really would tip our society on its head. Gender roles are important and the bedrock of western civilisation.

Why?

 

[najaB]

Breastfeeding.

That's a biological role, not a gender one.. But: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_lactation#Human_male_lactation

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

That's a biological role, not a gender one.. But: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_lactation#Human_male_lactation

Fair enough mate. I’ll check that out later.

 

[cactustwirly]

Gender neutrality isn't about a neutral gender, it's about not making assumptions about people based solely on their sex, or saying that they should or should do something e.g. 'Stop playing with dolls, you're a boy. Boy's don't play with dolls.'

I don't have a problem with that. That to me is a separate issue.

What I have a problem with is people who want to identify as 'X' or whatever else, and 'identify' to be neither a man or a woman.
My problem is, what is 'X'? What are you if you're neither a man nor a woman?
They expect us to change everything, so that they can identify as something else, even though this is just an opinion.

 

[EM2]

You mostly agree with her saying that all white people are racist and that our very existence is based in privilege and that we are all racist based on our skin colour?

Mostly, yes

Breastfeeding.

Not everyone is breastfed. Some females can't breastfeed.

 

[cactustwirly]

There’s quite a sizeable genderqueer movement advocating a gender-free society where sex and gender is an irrelevance.

This should be resisted at all costs. It really would tip our society on its head. Gender roles are important and the bedrock of western civilisation.

This is what I'm talking about, I'm completely against this.
There is a reason why mammals have evolved gender roles.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I don't have a problem with that. That to me is a separate issue.

What I have a problem with is people who want to identify as 'X' or whatever else, and 'identify' to be neither a man or a woman.
My problem is, what is 'X'? What are you if you're neither a man nor a woman?
They expect us to change everything, so that they can identify as something else, even though this is just an opinion.

So we aren't really talking about trans issue at that point then are we, we are talking about a pretty small subset.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why? What gender roles can only be performed by one sex?

No, if you bother to read the rest of my replies in this thread, please, again I explicitly state that I support the choice of anyone to perform whatever gender role they like.

What I don’t advocate is the pursuit of an ideal where gender roles are an irrelevance in society.

 

[Bromley boy]

I hope they don't. I certainly don't. I wouldn't refuse to date a trans person but I would refuse (and have refused) to date a bigot. The contents of the head are more important than the contents of the pants.

I can assure you the majority of people I have met (and I’d hazard a guess the majority of the wider population) will not regard a man who has had a sex change as being a woman.

If you think a rail forum is a good barometer of what most people think I can assure you that you are very wrong.

I would not date a trans person, no. Not so much a “refusal to date” as it is simply not my preference.

All of this is no doubt very binary in your head. Anyone who isn’t strongly pro trans is automatically a bigot. For the record I have no issue with trans people living under whichever gender they wish to assume.

My position isn't that people shouldn't be allowed to say certain things or think certain things- it's that they ought not to hold those opinions because they are flawed.

Ought not to hold opinions? Interesting choice of words. By flawed I presume you mean different to yours?

I will say though that personally if someone regularly bemoans "PC culture" it's a big red flag.

God forbid some of us like to think for ourselves without being told what to think by others.

 

[WelshBluebird]

This is what I'm talking about, I'm completely against this.
There is a reason why mammals have evolved gender roles.

I'll ask again why.
In the modern world, why do societal based gender roles matter?

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Mostly, yes

Well I personally think that was a load of anti-white rubbish. Funny how she was wanting to work for a white man like Jeremy Corbyn though isn’t it? I thought old rich while men were the oppressors, but then I guess socialists don’t count.

Not everyone is breastfed. Some females can't breastfeed.

Point is that males can’t breastfeed and cannot meet the role of natural nurturer.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There’s quite a sizeable genderqueer movement advocating a gender-free society where sex and gender is an irrelevance.

This should be resisted at all costs. It really would tip our society on its head. Gender roles are important and the bedrock of western civilisation.

It really wouldn't. Most aspects of life would be unaffected, because most aspects of life already have diddly-squat to do with sex or gender. It wouldn't change the biology of people, it would just give everyone the freedom to present as they wish- with the obvious caveat that you don't cause harm to others by doing so. Sure, dating might be a bit tricky to get used to (people's preferences wouldn't change) but most of us have managed to get used to the fact that homosexuality is generally accepted- something that wasn't the case 20 or even 10 years ago. The sky hasn't fallen in and those floods on the Somerset Levels weren't actually linked to gay marriage.

We were "warned" that the contraceptive pill would turn society on its head... It didn't. We were warned that rock & roll would be the downfall of society... It wasn't. I'm sure there were groups warning that giving women the vote would unleash hellfire and damnation... ***looks at watch***

Progress isn't always easy, but society always copes.

Of course it's academic because I don't believe for a moment that such a change could happen, or at least if it does it will take generations if not centuries to happen.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Point is that males can’t breastfeed and cannot meet the role of natural nurturer.

Breast milk can be pumped and stored, and then fed by the father.
So why can't the father meet the role of nurturer (I'll ignore the word natural, because as I've said before it means nothing).

 

[Bromley boy]

I'll ask again why.
In the modern world, why do societal based gender roles matter?

Quite simply they underpin the vast majority of relationships between individuals whose sex is aligned with their gender role - from romantic relationships to parenting.

We are talking about a tiny minority of people on this thread.

 

[cactustwirly]

I'll ask again why.
In the modern world, why do societal based gender roles matter?

Because they are based on and dependent on Biology.
Males are more muscular than females, so they are more suitable for manual & demanding tasks.
Females have biological adaptations that make them more suitable for childcare.

 

[EM2]

What I don’t advocate is the pursuit of an ideal where gender roles are an irrelevance in society.

But why not? If anyone can carry out any gender role, then why are they relevant?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Quite simply they underpin the vast majority of relationships between individuals whose sex is aligned with their gender role - from romantic relationships to parenting.

We are talking about a tiny minority of people on this thread.

No they don't. The traditional gender roles, of the male as the breadwinner / hunter and the woman as the family / baby making machine, literally have nothing of relevance in society today. Unless you have an example.

 

[cactustwirly]

There’s quite a sizeable genderqueer movement advocating a gender-free society where sex and gender is an irrelevance.

This should be resisted at all costs. It really would tip our society on its head. Gender roles are important and the bedrock of western civilisation.

It's essentially hypocrictism, they want to force their opinion on the rest of society, but they won't accept the opinion of others or scientific fact.