Discussion of transgender issues

[WelshBluebird]

Thought experiment: as a straight male, would you be prepared to enter into a sexual relationship with a “woman” who was born a man? Based on your stated view above, presumably you would? After all they are 100% woman in your view.

But if push came to shove I bet you wouldn’t. Why? Because of the reality that a person’s identity has an objective element, which goes beyond what that person subjectively wishes to be defined as.

I would quite happily argue there are a hell of a lot more factors at play than what you are assuming.
For me personally, I'd say he following issues would be things that I would have a fair bit more of worry about apart from "oh she wasn't born a woman".

• The abuse and discrimination that trans people face. That will, I have no doubt, have an impact on the relationship.
• The fact that trans people are likely to suffer from depression, anxiety and other mental illnesses that are very difficult to live with. Been there before with an ex who had bipolar disorder and it really does take a special kind of person to be able to deal with that in a relationship.
• The question of biological children.

Granted, I am not totally straight, so I cannot be used to judge the general male population. But those issues should not be ignored and because of them you cannot just jump straight to the assumption you have.

I'd also ask, since you are implying that if someone wasn't born a woman you would be unwilling to have a relationship with them, and I've asked this before, what about intersex people, who essentially have their gender chosen for them at birth by parents and medical professionals? Since someone who is intersex but female wasn't technically "born" a woman either.

 

[EM2]

I’d suggest it’s also the view you think you think you should hold rather than the view you actually hold.

It is not the view that I used to hold, it is the view that I now hold.

Thought experiment: as a straight male, would you be prepared to enter into a sexual relationship with a “woman” who was born a man? Based on your stated view above, presumably you would? After all they are 100% woman in your view.

But if push came to shove I bet you wouldn’t. Why? Because of the reality that a person’s identity has an objective element, which goes beyond what that person subjectively wishes to be defined as.

Why wouldn't I? I find Paris Lees and Munroe Bergdorf very attractive. The question has never arisen, because I've been with my wife for nearly thirty years, but I firmly believe that it would not be an issue.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It isn’t a form of bullying to not use invented pronouns.

I don find your constant mentioning of "invented pronouns" quite funny, just because every single pronoun in every single language is invented! Why, in your mind, is "She" not invented, but say "zie" is invented?

The way I see it, if you do not know the person then you respect what they want. It is fine to slip up and make mistakes or to simply not know and ask. And if you do know the person, then it is likely you know what they prefer to be referred to as. So just like you wouldn't call someone a name that isn't their name (unless it is a friendly nickname, or you are bullying them), why not just use the term which you know they prefer?

Again, I think there is a common misconception that making a mistake, or slipping up, or even asking, is a bad thing. It isn't. What is a bad thing is deliberately being disrespectful or downright nasty (e.g. continuously calling someone he when they are post-op trans-woman who looks and acts female).

And honestly, being trans is so rare, that you are not going to meet that many unless you are specifically involved with trans rights etc etc. It isn't like it is going to be difficult to remember what one or two people prefer to be called (and it isn't really much different to say my old English teacher who didn't like being called Mrs so when by Ms).

What do people think of the Girl Guides Movement allowing trans gender boys to join and allowing them to shower in the same showers as girls. Could this be a safeguarding issue ?

Here lies the problem.
It's the reason why trans "women" shouldn't be allowed in female prisons etc.

To both of you - why is that any worse than say a lesbian being in a female shower or prison, or a gay man being in a male shower or prison? The whole concept of facilities segregated by sex / gender is a bit of a weird one, because it only works when you assume everyone is straight!

Gay?? I have gay friends and many who don't support the 'T' in LGBT. Stop lumping a mental illness together with a sexuality. You can love another person of the same sex but you cant change into something of the opposite.

My reply was talking about nature and how you claimed that "nature" never messes up. Yet we see a great deal of diversity when it comes to sexuality, human behaviour, genetic illnesses, birth defects, etc etc etc. Nature does not intend anything (because really, there is no such thing as nature).

As for being trans being a mental illness - you only have to go back a couple of decades for people saying what you are now about gay people.

 

[najaB]

And despite what some trans activists may say, 99.9% of the human population can tell you that women don’t have penises.

Most don't. Some do. Deal with it.

 

[Bromley boy]

Most don't. Some do. Deal with it.

Someone born a man can never be a woman in the eyes of most people. No amount of surgery, hormone treatment or PC double think can change that.

Deal with it.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Someone born a man can never be a woman in the eyes of most people. No amount of surgery, hormone treatment or PC double think can change that.

Deal with it.

If they have the right parts (thanks to surgery), look like a woman, dress like a woman, act like a woman and present themselves as a woman, why not?

I'll also repeat my question about intersex people in anticipation of a "they weren't born a woman" answer: someone who is intersex is not born female, but that may be chosen for them by parents or medical professionals after birth and then for all other purposes - they are female. Hell there are some (granted very rare) cases of people not knowing their history until very later on in life.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don find your constant mentioning of "invented pronouns" quite funny, just because every single pronoun in every single language is invented! Why, in your mind, is "She" not invented, but say "zie" is invented?

“Zie” is an invention of internet fora, rather than a very gradual evolution of language. That’s what I mean - obviously all language is fluid and all words come into being at some point. But gender neutral pronouns (other than “they”) are generally quite fringe and most originate either from specific interest groups or online communities. Most aren’t recognised as words by the dictionary - or not yet anyway.

The way I see it, if you do not know the person then you respect what they want.

That’s basically fine in most cases, I agree. But I don’t agree with adding gender neutral pronouns. Redefining building blocks of language isn’t the same as someone changing their name.

Again, I think there is a common misconception that making a mistake, or slipping up, or even asking, is a bad thing. It isn't.

I didn’t say it was a bad thing, but it engenders embarrassment and awkwardness that need not exist. That’s why the pronoun issue is a non-sequitur and that’s why it’s not helpful in advancing trans equality.

As for being trans being a mental illness - you only have to go back a couple of decades for people saying what you are now about gay people.

I know this wasn’t directed at me, but:

To be clear, gender dysphoria is not strictly speaking a mental illness but it is a mental disorder.

It is a medical problem which is not physical in nature but mental. It also requires careful treatment and occasionally surgery. It is not in the least bit comparable to homosexuality in that regard.

 

[WelshBluebird]

“Zie” is an invention of internet fora, rather than a very gradual evolution of language. That’s what I mean - obviously all language is fluid and all words come into being at some point. But gender neutral pronouns (other than “they”) are generally quite fringe and most originate either from specific interest groups or online communities. Most aren’t recognised as words by the dictionary - or not yet anyway.

That’s basically fine in most cases, I agree. But I don’t agree with adding gender neutral pronouns. Redefining building blocks of language isn’t the same as someone changing their name.

But as you said, language is fluid. It changes all of the time. Not being a language history buff I don't know, but I would assume at some point in history there may not have been a word for say "her". But we now have one. Why is adding new words to our language a bad thing?

And if they are fringe - why is it just a big deal to you? As I said, you'll likely meet just a handful of trans people unless you are involved in certain circles. It isn't like this is a big deal to the general person. But to those affected? It makes such a difference. Such little effort from myself of yourself can literally make someones day. Personally I think that very concept is an amazing one (totally off topic - but this is why I love it when musicians, footballers etc spend 5 minutes meeting fans - its literally hardly any effort for them but makes the fans day!).

Also, at least the two trans people I know, go by their transitioned gender. So one is a trans-male and he goes by he, and the other is a trans-woman and goes by she. Granted I don't have any proof - but I think the vast majority of trans people probably fall under this flag, so it is even less likely this will ever be an issue for you. So if someone wants to be called "zie" or whatever, what on earth is the problem, because we are unlikely to know more than one or two people who are in that situation. Again - little effort from us, massive difference to their lives.

I didn’t say it was a bad thing, but it engenders embarrassment and awkwardness that need not exist. That’s why the pronoun issue is a non-sequitur and that’s why it’s not helpful in advancing trans equality.

Ok I kind of agree with you when it comes to awkwardness - but my reply to that is to bloody get over yourself! (not aimed specifically at you, more people who feel awkward about it). Trans people have lifetimes of dealing with feeling awkward. Ten seconds of me feeling awkward is literally nothing if it makes their life a little bit better (by someone respecting their wishes of what they want to be called). I said the same thing above, and I said something very similar in the thread about LU dropping gendered introductions in their announcements - is such a small bit of effort from someone - barely anything, but it makes the lives of some people so much better.

I know this wasn’t directed at me, but:

To be clear, gender dysphoria is not strictly speaking a mental illness but it is a mental disorder.

It is a medical problem which is not physical in nature but mental. It also requires careful treatment and occasionally surgery. It is not in the least bit comparable to homosexuality in that regard.

Sorry I wasn't trying to claim that. More making the point that a lot of the arguments being used against trans rights at the moment (its not natural, its a mental illness so shouldn't be accepted, they are just rapists trying to get a way in etc) were used against gay people less than a few decades ago (and still are in some parts of the world). I tend to find that with like racism, homophobia, sexism and transphobia, these same "arguments" are used time and time again to defend certain points of view (e.g it is a bit of pretty damn horrible racism that seems to exist that asserts interacial relationships are due to mental illness).

 

[EM2]

“Zie” is an invention of internet fora, rather than a very gradual evolution of language. That’s what I mean - obviously all language is fluid and all words come into being at some point. But gender neutral pronouns (other than “they”) are generally quite fringe and most originate either from specific interest groups or online communities. Most aren’t recognised as words by the dictionary - or not yet anyway.

See also 'bashing', 'bowled', thrash', 'My Lordz'...

 

[najaB]

Someone born a man can never be a woman in the eyes of most people. No amount of surgery, hormone treatment or PC double think can change that.

Biology and gender identity aren't the same thing. If you don't accept that then there's no point having a discussion.

 

[PeterC]

Biology and gender identity aren't the same thing. If you don't accept that then there's no point having a discussion.

This sounds like the objections to menusrtation being considered a "women's" issue because trans women don't have periods.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

My word, this thread is fascinating! I thought I'd seen everything on here but the 47/73/57 analogy was quite something! (Though to be fair it sort-of worked but for the fact that it's about machines rather than human beings)

I'll say this again. The pronoun discussion is a molehill that someone's stuck a flag in the top of. How often do you use a gendered pronoun when addressing a person directly? I'm guessing not often unless you're either a cavemanperson or Jadis from The Walking Dead.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This sounds like the objections to menusrtation being considered a "women's" issue because trans women don't have periods.

Though not all cisgendered women have periods either, yet some trans men do, so I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[AlterEgo]

See also 'bashing', 'bowled', thrash', 'My Lordz'...

None of which I use and none of which I expect other people to use.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Someone born a man can never be a woman in the eyes of most people. No amount of surgery, hormone treatment or PC double think can change that.

Deal with it.

When you say "most people" I suspect that you really mean "myself".

 

[cactustwirly]

Biology and gender identity aren't the same thing. If you don't accept that then there's no point having a discussion.

But the defintion of a man or woman is based on biology!
How else would you describe what a man or woman is?

 

[najaB]

But the defintion of a man or woman is based on biology!
How else would you describe what a man or woman is?

I agree that male and female are based on biology. In humans the female has XX chromosomes, the male has XY and intersex has XXY.
'Man' and 'woman' are gender - if someone looks like what a woman is 'expected' to look like, acts how a woman is 'expected' to act and perform the roles that a woman is 'expected' to perform, does it matter what genes they have?

 

[cactustwirly]

I agree that male and female are based on biology. In humans the female has XX chromosomes, the male has XY and intersex has XXY.
'Man' and 'woman' are gender - if I look like what a woman is 'expected' to look like, act how a woman is 'expected' to act and perform the roles that a woman is 'expected' to perform, does it matter what genes I have?

That's not what I'm asking, I'm asking how you would describe what a man or a woman is without referring to their Biology?

This really confuses me, since the defintion of a man and woman that I've always known, has been based on their Biological identity.

 

[EM2]

But the defintion of a man or woman is based on biology!
How else would you describe what a man or woman is?

The definitions of male and female are based on biology.
The definitions of man or woman are based on the gender roles that society expects males and females to perform.

 

[cactustwirly]

The definitions of male and female are based on biology.
The definitions of man or woman are based on the gender roles that society expects males and females to perform.

Ok describe to me, what a man or woman is using your defintion of Gender.
Because I'm really confused at what it all means if it doesn't refer to Biology.

 

[najaB]

That's not what I'm asking, I'm asking how you would describe what a man or a woman is without referring to their Biology?

At its most basic, a man is a person who looks manly and does manly things.

Extending it a bit, I presume you are a man? Is it because you have a penis? Would you stop being a man if it dropped off? Would you be any less manly if you hadn't been born with one? Or would you still just *know* that you're a man?

 

[cactustwirly]

At its most basic, a man is a person who looks manly and does manly things.

That to me is refering to their Biology.

What is "manly" and what activities does a "man" do?

 

[najaB]

That to me is refering to their Biology.

But it isn't. It's entirely possible have a physical appearance that is at odds with your biology.

 

[cactustwirly]

But it isn't. It's entirely possible have a physical appearance that is at odds with your biology.

How?
What does a man then look like?

 

[Bromley boy]

Granted, I am not totally straight, so I cannot be used to judge the general male population. But those issues should not be ignored and because of them you cannot just jump straight to the assumption you have.

Of course there are other factors to consider but the fact remains that the vast majority of straight men would not enter into a relationship with a man who had had gender reassignment surgery and identified as a woman. For that matter I’m not sure many gay men would want to be in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex either.

Why wouldn't I? I find Paris Lees and Munroe Bergdorf very attractive. The question has never arisen, because I've been with my wife for nearly thirty years, but I firmly believe that it would not be an issue.

That is a highly unusual viewpoint for a straight male to hold (Munroe Bergdorf is also a vile racist, by the way, who despises the white race despite being half white himself/herself).

As for being trans being a mental illness - you only have to go back a couple of decades for people saying what you are now about gay people.

Mental illness is the wrong word. Gender dysphoria is nonetheless a recognised psychological condition. It is separate to sexuality. One doesn’t “suffer” from being gay or straight but it could be said that one suffers from the condition of gender dysphoria.

I'll also repeat my question about intersex people in anticipation of a "they weren't born a woman" answer: someone who is intersex is not born female, but that may be chosen for them by parents or medical professionals after birth and then for all other purposes - they are female. Hell there are some (granted very rare) cases of people not knowing their history until very later on in life.

But someone who is born intersex has two sets of sex organs and is not someone who suffers from gender dysphoria. If they are born intersex, they are neither man nor woman (or it could be said they are both!) and I believe this is reflected in their chromosomal makeup.

Biology and gender identity aren't the same thing. If you don't accept that then there's no point having a discussion.

They aren’t the same thing but the concepts are co-existent and interdependent. Simply saying that someone’s gender is completely separate to their sex is inaccurate in my view. If the concepts of sex and gender identity really were totally separate, why would someone who was trans gender go to the lengths of having surgery in the first place?

The biological reality is that gender roles, as we define them, are a product of nature not just nurture. Indeed studies have shown that gender roles occur in monkeys even when they are removed from their normal social situations.

https://animalwise.org/2012/01/26/born-this-way-gender-based-toy-preferences-in-primates/

To what degree are gender differences innate and biological, and to what extent do they arise out of societal modeling and environment?

Some (including Sasha’s parents) may see gender preferences as being primarily influenced by human social pressures, but there are indications of biological influences as well. For example, girls with a particular genetic condition that exposes them to high prenatal levels of androgen often show “masculine” toy preferences, even when their parents strongly encourage them to play with female-typical toys. Given the intertwining impacts of nature and nurture in human societies, can we learn anything from our animal relatives who grow up free from human societal norms?

Though not all cisgendered women have periods either, yet some trans men do, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Not all women have periods but all people who have periods are women. That is just one of a range of physiological and emotional characteristics that distinguish men from women.

I think many people in this country are getting heartily sick of being told what to think and being made to feel that their views are somehow bigoted and wrong just because they happen not to subscribe to the latest on trend PC thinking.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

But it isn't. It's entirely possible have a physical appearance that is at odds with your biology.

Is that linked to the amount of testosterone or eostrogen in one’s body? If so then it’s interesting when you consider the fact every human has both in which the balance varies from person to person.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Sex and Gender are different, but by no means completely seperate things from the each other.

In biology some animals will have particular sexual dimorphism that fits the roles they fill as that particular sex. That’s what we call gender roles. As humans who have gone beyond being wild animals it isn’t really necessary for our survival, but gender roles are essential for many others.

For example, female Gorillas are weaker than males because their role is to care for the offsprings, while the male deals with outside threats to the troop. Try to get a female to fight a desperate hungry leopard or another intruding male and you’ll see it would be much less of a match all of a sudden.

Humans evolved similarly in that the females are weaker than males when removing environmental factors such as Gyms and bodybuilding. However, unlike other animals we aren’t wild anymore, so we don’t need to hunt big Ungulates for food with nothing but a stick and a rock, therefore we’ve gone beyond natural gender roles.

Nevertheless, we have only gone beyond wild animals very recently in a biological sense, so out biology won’t change to fit our modern standards, and so while sex and gender are seperate they are not completely different. They are linked in the way I described above.

 

[EM2]

That is a highly unusual viewpoint for a straight male to hold

If you say so.

(Munroe Bergdorf is also a vile racist, by the way, who despises the white race despite being half white himself/herself).

If you're referring to the post which led to her being dropped from the L'Oreal campaign, I mostly agree with her (but that's heading off-topic).

 

[WelshBluebird]

How?
What does a man then look like?

So you have never seen someone who looks fairly androgynous then?
Never seen a guy who you thought looked feminine, or a woman you thought looked "manly"?

 

[cactustwirly]

Ok maybe I gave the wrong impression.
But here's my views on "gender neutrality".
Obviously a minority of society is of the opinion that gender is non binary, one can be neutral of a gender and that gender is independent of Biology (especially this point).
They are perfectly entitled to have that opinion, but none of this is factually correct (can anyone name an independent scientific study to prove their point of view?)

Those who argue against gender being linked to Biology, should look at any mammal and you'll see gender roles, proving that gender roles are not unique to humans and our society.
No one has been able to give me a concrete defintion on what a man or woman is without referring to Biology.

What I am against is the upheaval of our society based on a minority point of view, which is not factually correct.