Discussion of transgender issues

[Tetchytyke]

you will not convince me that a trans woman is the same as a cis woman.

Nobody would suggest they are the "same". What they are, however, is equal as women. Or men, if they're transitioning to a male identity.

The fact that you do not wish to respect that is regrettable, but your loss. The fact you are arguing they are "deluded"- a very specific mental health condition- is, however, extremely offensive. I am offended by it. I am disgusted you would talk about people I know and like as though they're muck you scrape off your shoe.

 

[Chris M]

I don’t know any women in real life who would consider a trans woman to be their equal.

I suggest you speak to more women then, as every cisgender woman in know in real life whose opinion on such matters I know do consider transwomen to be their equals.
Unlike @Arctic Troll LGBT+ issues have never been my line work directly, but (for reasons I don't know) I do know more people who are openly trans and non-binary than statistics suggest is typical. Statistically there is a great likelihood that there are people who I know who are trans or non-binary but are not openly so.

 

[Chris M]

Nobody would suggest they are the "same". What they are, however, is equal as women. Or men, if they're transitioning to a male identity.

The fact that you do not wish to respect that is regrettable, but your loss. The fact you are arguing they are "deluded"- a very specific mental health condition- is, however, extremely offensive. I am offended by it. I am disgusted you would talk about people I know and like as though they're muck you scrape off your shoe.

I completely endorse what Arctic Troll says here, your (@AlterEgo ) statement is very offensive to me (even as a cisgender person) and to the many transgender people I know - some of whom I am very close to. Please think how you would feel if someone treated you the way you are referring to others, based on their uninformed views about a core part of who you are.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

The fact that you do not wish to respect that is regrettable, but your loss. The fact you are arguing they are "deluded"- a very specific mental health condition- is, however, extremely offensive. I am offended by it. I am disgusted you would talk about people I know and like as though they're muck you scrape off your shoe.

I completely endorse what Arctic Troll says here, your (@AlterEgo ) statement is very offensive to me (even as a cisgender person) and to the many transgender people I know - some of whom I am very close to. Please think how you would feel if someone treated you the way you are referring to others, based on their uninformed views about a core part of who you are.

Just to remind you both, being offended is your own right and your own choice to make, and not me nor AlterEgo will stop you making it, but just remember that it doesn't make you correct in this situation, nor does it give you certain rights or moral high ground. To quote Stephen Fry, to say you're offended has no meaning or no purposes and it is nothing more than a whine, and so it doesn't really strengthen your arguments or add anything to the conversation. I don't think it will make your opponent consider changing their mind either.

 

[AlterEgo]

Nobody would suggest they are the "same". What they are, however, is equal as women. Or men, if they're transitioning to a male identity.

The fact that you do not wish to respect that is regrettable, but your loss. The fact you are arguing they are "deluded"- a very specific mental health condition- is, however, extremely offensive. I am offended by it. I am disgusted you would talk about people I know and like as though they're muck you scrape off your shoe.

“Deluded” isn’t a specific mental health condition. It just means believing something that isn’t true.

Clearly, people with gender dysphoria are, by definition, suffering from a medical condition. This isn’t a physical condition but is a mental disorder (but not an illness). The treatment for that can be very varied and isn’t always transition to another gender. If you are born a male and wish to be a female then I can see no other way of describing that than a delusion, in the same way if you think you’re Napoleon - also a mental disorder.

This isn’t to besmirch trans people or put them down. A lot of trans people are very brave, in the same way a lot of people with mental illnesses are very brave. Nonetheless, I don’t accept a woman transitioning to a man to be a man in the same way my dad is, nor a man transitioning to be a woman to be a woman in the same way my mother or girlfriend is. It’s not in any way the same and never will be. If people get offended by that, then they’re welcome to be.

It’s disappointing to think you view my position as basically reckoning trans people are muck scraped off your shoe. I don’t think anything I have said reflects that at all.

I’m very relaxed about trans people and will fight for their rights in an era of Trumpism and fundamentalism.

However, nobody is going to tell me I have to think trans people are in any way the same as cis people when it comes to sex or gender. They aren’t.

 

[AlterEgo]

I completely endorse what Arctic Troll says here, your (@AlterEgo ) statement is very offensive to me (even as a cisgender person) and to the many transgender people I know - some of whom I am very close to. Please think how you would feel if someone treated you the way you are referring to others, based on their uninformed views about a core part of who you are.

Well, I’m sorry if my opinion offends you, but it nonetheless hasn’t changed. Trans women aren’t women, in my view.

I accept anyone’s right to live a free, blameless and fruitful existence howsoever they wish, whether this be a function of medical predisposition or just a whim.

I don’t accept being told my opinion is somehow unacceptable. I exercise my beliefs about trans people are the same as my personal opposition to abortion or gay marriage. I think them, yet I will happily vote in any referendum or any fight to give fellow equal citizens the choice and empowerment to choose for themselves how to live. Personal beliefs are just that, and don’t go beyond the front door into exercising civic rights.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I’m very relaxed about trans people and will fight for their rights in an era of Trumpism and fundamentalism.

I'm really pleased to hear that, the rights are the important thing. The talk of "not equal" was what concerned me, in this Trumpian time of some people being deemed less human than others. Transgender people are equal to cisgender people.

They're certainly not the same though. Of course not.

 

[Bromley boy]

I suggest you speak to more women then, as every cisgender woman in know in real life whose opinion on such matters I know do consider transwomen to be their equals.

I’ve spoken to plenty of women. Including the one I spoke to tonight about this subject over a nice steak. I can assure you, the general consensus amongst vaguely normal “cisgender” women is that a bloke is a bloke. A bloke who has had breast implants and his balls cut off... is still a bloke. It’s not rocket science to most people.

I completely endorse what Arctic Troll says here, your (@AlterEgo ) statement is very offensive to me (even as a cisgender person)

Be offended then!

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm really pleased to hear that, the rights are the important thing. The talk of "not equal" was what concerned me, in this Trumpian time of some people being deemed less human than others. Transgender people are equal to cisgender people.

They're certainly not the same though. Of course not.

For the record, yes - absolutely 100% *equal as citizens* in the same way you or I or any other person is. Free to marry, associate, be employed, protected from discrimination etc.

The “not equal to a woman” thing is a personal view and not one which I would ever extend into civil society. I will happily vote for the right for people to do things and have rights which I think are reasonable and empowering even if I don’t agree to it.

I wish Christian fundamentalists would do likewise.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

I wish Christian fundamentalists would do likewise.

I'd like to point those people to the Family Guy clip of god making Rosie O'Donnell. Not to make a point about that particular person, but just to give them idea on biological transsexualism and god's creations...

Angel: You can't put a vagina on that man.
God: (drunk and holding a bottle) Why not? I'm god!

 

[WelshBluebird]

In the context of it being unnatural, yes it is against nature. I certainly wouldn't get plastic surgery, and if it wasn't for human intelligence, nobody would be able to. Surgery isn't really your natural look. But whatever, I guess if you feel like you're done then I won't even try and stop you.

Sorry, but what exactly does something being natural have to do with anything?

Us discussing this topic on an internet forum is not natural. Neither is travelling on a train. Or someone taking life saving drugs. Or having life saving surgery. Or a mother being given medical help in giving birth.

Something being unnatural means literally nothing - as nearly all of our modern society is based on things that are not natural.

 

[greyman42]

That's pretty damn offensive, to be honest.

How can that be offensive? It's only someone's opinion.

 

[Confused147]

I don't understand why they are called "sex change" operations because nothing gets changed. You cannot change your DNA or change who you are. If the brain is convinced its dealing with the wrong body then its the brain which needs treatment and not the body. Seriously if your self esteem is so bad you can't even accept your biological humanity then it is a psychological/mental issue. Personally I think they do it purely for attention and because its popular. This should not be applauded and should be discouraged in every way.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't understand why they are called "sex change" operations because nothing gets changed. You cannot change your DNA or change who you are. If the brain is convinced its dealing with the wrong body then its the brain which needs treatment and not the body. Seriously if your self esteem is so bad you can't even accept your biological humanity then it is a psychological/mental issue. Personally I think they do it purely for attention and because its popular. This should not be applauded and should be discouraged in every way.

The majority of people with gender dysphoria don’t undergo a transition with surgery, because it isn’t necessarily right for them. Having gender reassignment surgery is not popular.

Gender dysphoria is not a self esteem issue but rather a specific mental condition (but not a disease or illness).

 

[WelshBluebird]

I don't understand why they are called "sex change" operations because nothing gets changed.

They aren't. Well they aren't by anyone actually involved in it, or LGBT+ allies or anyone but the tabloids and transphobes.
The actual name is gender (or sex) reassignment surgery, often referred to as transitioning.

Seriously if your self esteem is so bad you can't even accept your biological humanity then it is a psychological/mental issue.

Well for one, its literally not to do with self esteem. Or where it is, its the other way around (the gender dysphoria and the bullying and abuse many people who have it suffer causes the low self esteem).

Personally I think they do it purely for attention and because its popular

Because clearly, people would happily choose a life of discrimination, abuse, increased risk of domestic abuse and other violent crime and increased risk of suicide, just for "attention". Come on seriously!?

 

[Confused147]

The actual name is gender (or sex) reassignment surgery, often referred to as transitioning.

And where is science in this trans bandwagon? I want to see real scientific proof that a person could swap genders because your plastic nuts mean nothing. When you can change your DNA get back to me.
Amazes me how we are in bed with science at determining every turn this world makes such as global warming but yet totally ignore science when it comes to determining a persons gender and yet I get classed as the ignorant one. I'm not ignorant I'm just living in the real world accepting facts and common sense not living in bubbles full of lies and pretence.

No matter what you change about your appearance, hormones, etc. You will always have the XY chromosome if you are a man and the XX chromosome if you are a woman. That's just how nature works. No matter what you change about your physical appearance, you will always be the man or woman that you were born. What is tragic is they claim nature messed up. No nature never messes up, and actually nature is perfect its the people who aren't perfect that do the messing up.

 

[WelshBluebird]

And where is science in this trans bandwagon? I want to see real scientific proof that a person could swap genders because your plastic nuts mean nothing. When you can change your DNA get back to me.
Amazes me how we are in bed with science at determining every turn this world makes such as global warming but yet totally ignore science when it comes to determining a persons gender and yet I get classed as the ignorant one. I'm not ignorant I'm just living in the real world accepting facts and common sense not living in bubbles full of lies and pretence.

No matter what you change about your appearance, hormones, etc. You will always have the XY chromosome if you are a man and the XX chromosome if you are a woman. That's just how nature works. No matter what you change about your physical appearance, you will always be the man or woman that you were born. What is tragic is they claim nature messed up. No nature never messes up, and actually nature is perfect its the people who aren't perfect that do the messing up.

And yet literally nobody is trying to claim you can change chromosomes.

Of course, that doesn't stop people looking like and living as a different gender to what their chromosomes say.
Take intersex people. Quite often their DNA will be somewhere in the middle, yet the parents and medical professionals usually make a decision either way.

As for "nature never messing up" - nature does nothing. We just exist. But of course, many conditions, illnesses, behaviours, sexualities etc etc do exist. So to try to claim that it is "people messing up" is just insane. If someone is gay does that mean they "messed up"? (actually I think I may regret that question, but there you go).

 

[AlterEgo]

And where is science in this trans bandwagon?

Have you looked at any medical studies, or even a Wikipedia page?

I want to see real scientific proof that a person could swap genders because your plastic nuts mean nothing. When you can change your DNA get back to me.

Your DNA defines your sex but not necessarily your gender. Wikipedia would tell you this.

Amazes me how we are in bed with science at determining every turn this world makes such as global warming but yet totally ignore science when it comes to determining a persons gender

Sadly, you’re ignoring the science.

and yet I get classed as the ignorant one. I'm not ignorant

With all due respect if you don’t realise that sex and gender aren’t necessarily the same thing then you are ignorant.

I'm just living in the real world accepting facts.

But you are fundamentally mistaken in your misconceptions about sex and gender. That isn’t accepting the facts - how can you, when you don’t know them?

No matter what you change about your appearance, hormones, etc. You will always have the XY chromosome if you are a man and the XX chromosome if you are a woman. That's just how nature works. No matter what you change about your physical appearance, you will always be the man or woman that you were born.

Nobody is disputing this.

What is tragic is they claim nature messed up. No nature never messes up, and actually nature is perfect its the people who aren't perfect that do the messing up.

Nature is not at all perfect, as people are born with severe disabilities all the time.

I have some concerns about transgender issues and their potential effect on society. I don’t think a trans woman is the same as a cis woman despite them both fulfilling a similar gender role, for example.

However transgenderism is very old indeed and I’m not sure I grasp what your concerns with it are.

 

[Confused147]

As for "nature never messing up" - nature does nothing. We just exist. But of course, many conditions, illnesses, behaviours, sexualities etc etc do exist. So to try to claim that it is "people messing up" is just insane. If someone is gay does that mean they "messed up"? (actually I think I may regret that question, but there you go).

Gay?? I have gay friends and many who don't support the 'T' in LGBT. Stop lumping a mental illness together with a sexuality. You can love another person of the same sex but you cant change into something of the opposite.

transgenderism is very old indeed and I’m not sure I grasp what your concerns with it are.

When they start expecting Drs to mutilate their bodys at taxpayers expense and suing people who don't agree with them that's when it starts to puts strain on NHS and the system. And that is when it starts to affect others. We need to stop misusing the English language in a vain attempt to make this seem normal. Its not.

 

[AlterEgo]

Gay?? I have gay friends and many who don't support the 'T' in LGBT. Stop lumping a mental illness together with a sexuality. You can love another person of the same sex but you cant change into something of the opposite.

It is not a mental illness. It is a mental disorder or mental condition. Please read at the very least, a Wikipedia page.

When they start expecting Drs to mutilate their bodys at taxpayers expense and suing people who don't agree with them that's when it starts to puts strain on NHS and the system. And that is when it starts to affect others. We need to stop misusing the English language in a vain attempt to make this seem normal. Its not.

Nobody is suggesting transgenderism is “normal”, it is actually quite exceptional. I only know two in real life myself.

How much is it costing you to perform gender reassignment surgery?

 

[PHILIPE]

What do people think of the Girl Guides Movement allowing trans gender boys to join and allowing them to shower in the same showers as girls. Could this be a safeguarding issue ?

 

[cactustwirly]

No matter what you change about your appearance, hormones, etc. You will always have the XY chromosome if you are a man and the XX chromosome if you are a woman. That's just how nature works. No matter what you change about your physical appearance, you will always be the man or woman that you were born. What is tragic is they claim nature messed up. No nature never messes up, and actually nature is perfect its the people who aren't perfect that do the messing up.

100% agree with you on that, except for 1 thing. Nature isn't perfect, if it was then there wouldn't be any genetic diseases etc.

 

[Domh245]

Could this be a safeguarding issue ?

Quite possibly, but if they felt it were an issue they would have been sure to have specific instructions on this, I note that their page on the matter does mention that alternative accommodation (and presumably facilities) should be provided if they think that sharing accommodation could leave others feeling uncomfortable - Scouting and Guiding tend to be very good on safeguarding nowadays.

 

[EM2]

I want to see real scientific proof that a person could swap genders because your plastic nuts mean nothing.

Sex is not gender.
Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears.
That's why the term 'transexual' isn't generally used any more.

 

[Bromley boy]

What do people think of the Girl Guides Movement allowing trans gender boys to join and allowing them to shower in the same showers as girls. Could this be a safeguarding issue ?

This is where I begin to worry about the whole issue. It does appear that trans activists have become increasingly strident over the last few years and often find themselves at loggerheads with feminists.

In my opinion people of an age where they attend girl guides/scouts are not old enough to be making decisions about being trans gender. People of this age certainly shouldn't be undergoing any kind of hormone treatment or surgery as they are simply too young to come to a settled view on the matter of whether they are trans gender or not (i.e whether they suffer from gender dysphoria or not), in my view.

 

[cactustwirly]

What do people think of the Girl Guides Movement allowing trans gender boys to join and allowing them to shower in the same showers as girls. Could this be a safeguarding issue ?

Here lies the problem.
It's the reason why trans "women" shouldn't be allowed in female prisons etc.
I actually find it stupid that we allow trans people at such a young age, they are not mature enough to make such a big decision.
Transgenderism does create a lot of problems, as well as this "gender neutrality" nonsense.
I'm ok with them pretending to be the opposite gender, if that makes them more comfortable, and of course they should have the same rights as any other person.

 

[cactustwirly]

Sex is not gender.
Sex is what is between your legs. Gender is what is between your ears.
That's why the term 'transexual' isn't generally used any more.

But Gender is not independent of Sex.
Sex hugely influences Gender.
If that isn't the case, then what is the actual definition of a male/female in terms of gender?

 

[Domh245]

as well as this "gender neutrality" nonsense.

It depends what you mean. Gender Neutral Prefixes (Zher, Zhey, etc) are a bit over the top for my liking, Gender Neutral bathrooms and the like I've got no issue with at all.

 

[EM2]

But Gender is not independent of Sex.

Gender is completely independent of sex.

If that isn't the case, then what is the actual definition of a male/female in terms of gender?

Seek and ye shall find:
http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Sex

Although each person's sex characteristics are slightly different, sex is often grouped broadly into two categories: male and female, referred to as binary or dyadic sexes. Sex is typically assigned at birth based on the appearance of the genitals, and may not reflect gender identity later in life.

 

[Bromley boy]

Gender is completely independent of sex.

Completely independent? Is that a scientifically settled fact?

I'm not at all sure that it is.