Passengers stuck on trains overnight in New Forest (01/03 - 02/03)

[TheManBehind]

I don't know.

Someone in the swr senior management I guess. They deleted the tweets which doesn't help.

Now that is naughty in my honest opinion. Not casting aspersions but stands to reason they were trying to cover something up.

Twitters algorithms take posts with high engagement and show them up in feeds often long after the event. Deleting posts stops this from happening.

There would have been enough time for anyone to get sufficient evidence that it had already been put up, including all the email alerts that were sent about it and the website page that said they were no longer planning to introduce it...

 

[pompeyfan]

According to some reports the driver remained locked in his cab and refused to give any information although in fairness he probably didn't have any information to give.

There were 3 trapped trains from what I understand which has been misinterpreted as only 1 train, which is why there is conflicting times on departure from Waterloo. It is very possible one of the drivers did shut themselves into the cab. There’s also reports from other services that both crew members were fantastic, it depends which media report you take up.

1W35, 1W75 and 2B51 are the trains I believe that were stuck in section over that night (happy to be corrected). As I understand it, a rescue was made to get 2 of the above units to assist each other. I’d take a guess 2B51 was called onto the train that it had originally split from at Southampton, but the attachment was unsuccessful.

 

[Robertj21a]

According to some reports the driver remained locked in his cab and refused to give any information although in fairness he probably didn't have any information to give.

Isn't this one of the key issues, that never seems to be properly resolved ?
In 2018 why can't a regular update be broadcast through the train, even if it is to say that they have no further news. Surely, the driver must still be in contact with someone who knows a little more than the passengers ?

 

[pompeyfan]

Isn't this one of the key issues, that never seems to be properly resolved ?
In 2018 why can't a regular update be broadcast through the train, even if it is to say that they have no further news. Surely, the driver must still be in contact with someone who knows a little more than the passengers ?

After an hour, the battery would have gone, and taken the emergency lighting and PA with it.

 

[theironroad]

Isn't this one of the key issues, that never seems to be properly resolved ?
In 2018 why can't a regular update be broadcast through the train, even if it is to say that they have no further news. Surely, the driver must still be in contact with someone who knows a little more than the passengers ?

As Pompeyfan has just said, once the battery has gone the pa will go, but also so will the radio system between the train and the signaller. Mobiles may help if there is signal and have enough charge. The sockets will also be dud so no ability to recharge.

If the train is actually at a signal then there is a telephone attached direct to the signaller, but the driver can't stay standing by it for hours.

 

[theironroad]

According to some reports the driver remained locked in his cab and refused to give any information although in fairness he probably didn't have any information to give.

Where are these reports please?

I'd be very surprised if any driver or guard would 'refuse' to give information if they had any.

 

[pompeyfan]

Where are these reports please?

I'd be very surprised if any driver or guard would 'refuse' to give information if they had any.

Someone Skyped Good morning Britain yesterday live from one of the trapped trains, and stated that the driver (of their train) had locked themself into the front cab and hadn’t given out any information, the presenters then suggested that perhaps the driver had a warm thermos full of tea (like all good Railway people should I might add) and was unwilling to share, this then snowballed into some outlets reporting all train crew were terrible etc.

 

[theironroad]

Someone Skyped Good morning Britain yesterday live from one of the trapped trains, and stated that the driver (of their train) had locked themself into the front cab and hadn’t given out any information, the presenters then suggested that perhaps the driver had a warm thermos full of tea (like all good Railway people should I might add) and was unwilling to share, this then snowballed into some outlets reporting all train crew were terrible etc.

Oh dear.

I hope the person skypeing offered their phone from use to public and crew alike...

Edit: just found it. sounds like the driver and guard were in a information vacuum like everyone else.

Hard to know what the driver was going through and whether he or she was getting abuse.

To be a bit pedantic, the default position for all driving cabs should be locked.

 

[AlanFry1]

and how could anyone (short of a superhero with magic powers) have produced these necessities, when just getting access to work out what is wrong with the unit is almost impossible anyway? Get real.

The TOC IMO should have food, blankets and drink stored away for such emergencies for long haul journeys.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I wonder how many other incidents were indirectly affected (or possibly caused) by the 20mph if horn not working rule?- there must have been hundreds if not thousands of failures across the network.

I seriously hope once this all settles down that a redesign, temp fix or a rule book change comes out of this.

Rule book change? It's a warning horn on a train, aside from the brakes it's the most important safety critical device on there. I have driven a train for 25 miles with a completely defective warning horn at 20mph, that was fast enough for me. The rulebook instructions are there for a reason, just because they cause inconvenience it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them.
The only thing that needs to change is for people to look into the feasibility of heated horn cones to prevent snow settling or ice forming on/in them.
Until then I will happily comply with the *safe* rulebook instruction as if I don't and something happens it will be me stood in court explaining my actions, not you.

 

[AlanFry1]

Why? What have they done that is illegal or even wrong?

Passangers also should have been allowed to make their own way down the tracks from when the train became helpless, and communication should have been provided.

 

[Julia]

Good point. Do they even have delay repay on buses? My experience is that if your bus is cancelled and you're waiting at a stop without screens, you just have to wait for the next one with no recourse or reason. And yet the buses don't seem to get bad press.

Even if you do have screens, then (at least in Cambs) there seems no way to cancel a bus - so it will simply display at its scheduled time until that passes. Spent several hours out in the cold this week not knowing if my bus home was actually running.

 

[theageofthetra]

Rule book change? It's a warning horn on a train, aside from the brakes it's the most important safety critical device on there. I have driven a train for 25 miles with a completely defective warning horn at 20mph, that was fast enough for me. The rulebook instructions are there for a reason, just because they cause inconvenience it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them.
The only thing that needs to change is for people to look into the feasibility of heated horn cones to prevent snow settling or ice forming on/in them.
Until then I will happily comply with the *safe* rulebook instruction as if I don't and something happens it will be me stood in court explaining my actions, not you.

No one is suggesting not obeying the rulebook- I agree that rule is there for very good reasons however in extreme conditions like this where slow running could and has caused even bigger issues- could there not be some kind of easement to get the train to a place of safety as quickly as possible in extreme and very specific circumstances with say hazzards switched on?

What if there were for example a fire or active shooter/terrorism - would you want that pootling along at 20 mph when there is a station down the line?

The poor design of the horns is by far the biggest issue though. Did this happen when the horns were mounted high up on the roof?

 

[Antman]

Where are these reports please?

I'd be very surprised if any driver or guard would 'refuse' to give information if they had any.

TV interviews and online.

I did say that the driver probably didn't have any information to give.

 

[theageofthetra]

After an hour, the battery would have gone, and taken the emergency lighting and PA with it.

Unless it was Doo. If the PA had failed why can't the driver when they do get any info not get the guard to relay that message by walking down the train every hour or so? It's what I would have done.

 

[theageofthetra]

TV interviews and online.

I did say that the driver probably didn't have any information to give.

Still no excuse unless DOO. Giving any news even if no news is vital in a crisis situation. If PA has failed (and why that or the radio doesn't have a dedicated longlife battery back up is a seperate debate)

Get the guard to relay messages or even designate a competent passenger (ideally emergency services) to walk down the train and relay any updates if the driver cannot leave the cab.

 

[theironroad]

The lady in the good morning Britain interview from the train said that the guard did come to speak with them periodically but had no further information from controllers. Drivers and guards speak regularly but information to passengers generally comes from the guard.

 

[Dieseldriver]

No one is suggesting not obeying the rulebook- I agree that rule is there for very good reasons however in extreme conditions like this where slow running could and has caused even bigger issues- could there not be some kind of easement to get the train to a place of safety as quickly as possible in extreme and very specific circumstances with say hazzards switched on?

What if there were for example a fire or active shooter/terrorism - would you want that pootling along at 20 mph when there is a station down the line?

The poor design of the horns is by far the biggest issue though. Did this happen when the horns were mounted high up on the roof?

Sorry probably need to clarify a little bit. Speaking as a Train Driver, I do not think that trains should run amy faster than they are already permitted with no functioning warning horn.
Your weird comment about terrorism is bizarre. If I ever find myself in that exact scenario I will re evaluate my viewpoint, however, until my train is attacked by fire arm weilding terrorists whilst I have no warning horn and am only a mile away from a station, I will run at 20mph.
You have a çolourful and over active imagination, fair enough, but before commenting on these subjects maybe visit real life a while and take the time to consider just why it wouldn't be a good idea to run hundreds/thousands of tonne of train at high speeds in a blizzard with exceptionally poor visibility (to both the Driver and anyone working on the line) without any means of audibly warning anyone of the trains presence.

 

[matt_world2004]

If I was a driver and there was stranding. I would remain locked in the cab too and communicate to the passengers via the PA. I would make it clear that if any passenger needs emergency medical attention though to pull the pass comm.

 

[AndrewE]

If I was a driver and there was stranding. I would remain locked in the cab too and communicate to the passengers via the PA. I would make it clear that if any passenger needs emergency medical attention though to pull the pass comm.

I guess you need to stay there anyway in case you get a call from the signalman about a rescue train, or whatever.

 

[matt_world2004]

I guess you need to stay there anyway in case you get a call from the signalman about a rescue train, or whatever.

Also by leaving the cab you would be putting yourself in a situation of conflict unessescaryily.

 

[theageofthetra]

The lady in the good morning Britain interview from the train said that the guard did come to speak with them periodically but had no further information from controllers. Drivers and guards speak regularly but information to passengers generally comes from the guard.

Good to hear and well done to them. With the packed Lewisham trains and DOO that would have been very difficult.

 

[theageofthetra]

Sorry probably need to clarify a little bit. Speaking as a Train Driver, I do not think that trains should run amy faster than they are already permitted with no functioning warning horn.
Your weird comment about terrorism is bizarre. If I ever find myself in that exact scenario I will re evaluate my viewpoint, however, until my train is attacked by fire arm weilding terrorists whilst I have no warning horn and am only a mile away from a station, I will run at 20mph.
You have a çolourful and over active imagination, fair enough, but before commenting on these subjects maybe visit real life a while and take the time to consider just why it wouldn't be a good idea to run hundreds/thousands of tonne of train at high speeds in a blizzard with exceptionally poor visibility (to both the Driver and anyone working on the line) without any means of audibly warning anyone of the trains presence.

Instead of making insulting comments how about suggesting a way of improving the current horn failure issue or providing your knowledge on whether this issue existed when they were mostly roof mounted?

 

[Robertj21a]

As Pompeyfan has just said, once the battery has gone the pa will go, but also so will the radio system between the train and the signaller. Mobiles may help if there is signal and have enough charge. The sockets will also be dud so no ability to recharge.

If the train is actually at a signal then there is a telephone attached direct to the signaller, but the driver can't stay standing by it for hours.

Thanks, fully understood.

Hopefully, one action point to take away from this sorry episode is that a back-up emergency battery may need to be considered.

Also, given the length of time we are talking about, I don't think it unreasonable to assume that the driver should occasionally (hourly ?) use the telephone if he's stopped at a signal. I'm sure that most drivers would do so anyway but I don't know if that's the instruction.

 

[Helvellyn]

Well I'm loathe t get into another argument in this thread so let's just say this.

Yesterday morning (Thurs) it was announced via the swr Twitter feed with links to website that the snow plan (the severe weather plan) had been activated for today.

All the pdf timetables were available and I even downloaded 2 routes.

It seems within about 2 hours that decision was rescinded and it was announced that a normal service would run.

Fast forward today and chaos.

And that is why I hope some searching questions are asked. As I said, not necessarily for public consumption but certainly internally. A wrong call was made and it needs to be determined was that decision really the right one? If facts said yes, what other information was missing that could have altered it?

I always remember being told he rule book is written in blood - because over many decades so may have died to get where we are. Nobody died here, but it is also worth reviewing and determining if things could have been done differently or better. For example, I remember a few years ago where the snow plan bore no relation to crew sign-on/sign-off times so it was a nightmare for the ORMs to crew it. The next year it had been tweaked and all duties were matched against base roster ones, allowing a number of spare crews to be in place for no-shows (due to weather) and taking into account breaks. Led to some gripes about who was spare and who had to go out from some, but equally it seemed to me a fairer way to allocate work.

I also recall being told that Snow Plan plus was created as a way of running more trains if it wasn't as bad as expected, or only part of the network might be affected, but that it came about from experience of where things improved and the Snow Plan service was considered too light.

Contingency plans exist for a reason, but I sometimes wonder if people are afraid to implement them for fear of being accused of crying wolf.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Instead of making insulting comments how about suggesting a way of improving the current horn failure issue or providing your knowledge on whether this issue existed when they were mostly roof mounted?

I suggested heated horn cones. That is the only thing I can think of.
The reduced speed relating to a total horn failure is not excessive, it is necessary, there is no way that it could be justified to increase that speed.

 

[Darandio]

Passangers also should have been allowed to make their own way down the tracks from when the train became helpless, and communication should have been provided.

You really are a buffoon, aren't you.

 

[theageofthetra]

Also by leaving the cab you would be putting yourself in a situation of conflict unessescaryily.

I suggested heated horn cones. That is the only thing I can think of.
The reduced speed relating to a total horn failure is not excessive, it is necessary, there is no way that it could be justified to increase that speed.

Fair comment and thanks for your polite response.

 

[Bromley boy]

What if there were for example a fire or active shooter/terrorism - would you want that pootling along at 20 mph when there is a station down the line?

Putting the horn to one side for a minute, I don’t think you’ve thought this through. A train that is on fire or under attack is going to need to be evacuated. The priority is to stop in a safe place (ie not an embankment or tunnel), get other trains stopped and the power switched off.

Running it at a higher speed into a station is hardly likely to be beneficial and may well make things far worse.

These examples are far fetched to the point of being ludicrous and do not justify removal of the rulebook requirement about low speed running with a u/s horn.

The reduced speed relating to a total horn failure is not excessive, it is necessary, there is no way that it could be justified to increase that speed.

Couldn’t agree more.

 

[AlanFry1]

You really are a buffoon, aren't you.

The nearest station was 2 minutes train journey away, 10 mins walk away, so not really unreasonable is it?