Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[DarloRich]

10 minutes at Bedford, 23 at Bletchley. Loads of time.

those turn around times are not a constant throughout the day.

 

[samuelmorris]

I wonder what potential for technology sharing this project has. Could the learnings from this result in a battery pack being fitted to tube trains, for example, perhaps to get them to the nearest station if the power supply failed?

Pretty sure that's been done for decades. One set of traction motors (it may even be a traction motor singular) can run from the onboard batteries to nudge the units out of dead sections, e.g. into and out of the depots, as I recall? I'm sure the 73 stock has it as I've seen footage of it, not sure if it's common to every tube class.

 

[Dstock7080]

Pretty sure that's been done for decades. One set of traction motors (it may even be a traction motor singular) can run from the onboard batteries to nudge the units out of dead sections, e.g. into and out of the depots, as I recall? I'm sure the 73 stock has it as I've seen footage of it, not sure if it's common to every tube class.

Has never been adopted on Underground rolling Stock.
Overhead leads are the only way to move trains from within shed roads not fitted with traction current rails.

On board batteries are 2x 24v = 48v

 

[alexl92]

Forgive me if it’s been suggested before but could these units offer a solution where there is potential for a commuter service on a heritage line which wouldn’t pay if operated by heritage stock? For example, on the Worth Valley or Swanage Branches with their national network connections?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Forgive me if it’s been suggested before but could these units offer a solution where there is potential for a commuter service on a heritage line which wouldn’t pay if operated by heritage stock? For example, on the Worth Valley or Swanage Branches with their national network connections?

Potentially, yes.

 

[whhistle]

0-40 in 5 seconds? Don't think anything on LU will ever come even close to that!

5-10 seconds. Meaning, somewhere between 5 and 10.
I bet the Victoria line trains could do this on permitted parts of the line.

 

[samuelmorris]

I think I have the Jubilee line at 0-30 in 13 seconds, I'm not sure the Victoria is much, if any faster, so 0-40 in <10 seems very unlikely, let alone on mainline stock.

 

[Dstock7080]

S Stock (I’m on) in manual mode (weak field) 0>20 in 10sec, 0-30 in 20sec, 0-35 in 30sec.

 

[whhistle]

Oh, you're right.
No worries.

 

[mushroomchow]

This could then easily be replicated (Leicester - Loughborough for example in the same area).
BUT, if the acceleration isn't 0-40 within 5-10 seconds, it's not a huge improvement.

Low top speed, high acceleration will always be a big winner on local lines with many stops.

Problem is that those services A) operate far further than Loughborough nowadays (to Nottingham and Lincoln) and B) sizable stretches are rated faster than 60MPH.

You might just about get away with a 230 on the Nottingham - Lincoln portion, but they're not really suitable for the Leicester - Nottingham section. Benefits from the Leicester - Loughborough stretch would be lost on the longer, faster stretches to East Midlands Parkway and Beeston.

Now if they'd actually completed the Ivanhoe Line and the trains ran to Burton, that would be a different story.

 

[hooverboy]

so why not put fibreglass noses on them and reduce drag?..in fact this could also double up as a safety feature,if filled with some kind of crumple-zone type material.....much better from a drivers perspective.
you can squeeze a couple of extra mph and conserve a bit of energy that way.

your average motorcyclist can tell you that it's a far more comfortable ride even at 60mph with a bit of fairing to redirect the wind...let alone the front end of a 230 which is nearly 3m*2 running right into it.

 

[gordonjahn]

I assume that this news: http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-supply-new-trains-marston-vale-line/ about Vivarail supplying 3x 230s for Marston Vale means that'll definitely be diesel and not the battery version?

 

[reddragon]

Oh no! How are those negative naysayers saying that they will all go to scrap cope with this good news!!

 

[northwichcat]

Let's see how they perform on Marston Vale before we start saying whether the project has paid off or not.

 

[mushroomchow]

Hype mode activate! I presume these will be 2-car units?

so why not put fibreglass noses on them and reduce drag?..in fact this could also double up as a safety feature,if filled with some kind of crumple-zone type material.....much better from a drivers perspective.
you can squeeze a couple of extra mph and conserve a bit of energy that way.

your average motorcyclist can tell you that it's a far more comfortable ride even at 60mph with a bit of fairing to redirect the wind...let alone the front end of a 230 which is nearly 3m*2 running right into it.

The original concept art did have some fairing on the front, but that seems to have disappeared in the production models. Presumably considered an unnecessary expense, but you have a fair point as far as higher speed running is concerned. It's going to be a case of "wait and see" to determine the ride quality - the D Trains were always amongst the most comfortable ride on LU, but this will be a different beast I'm sure.

 

[furnessvale]

so why not put fibreglass noses on them and reduce drag?..in fact this could also double up as a safety feature,if filled with some kind of crumple-zone type material.....much better from a drivers perspective.
you can squeeze a couple of extra mph and conserve a bit of energy that way.

your average motorcyclist can tell you that it's a far more comfortable ride even at 60mph with a bit of fairing to redirect the wind...let alone the front end of a 230 which is nearly 3m*2 running right into it.

I would wager that the limiting factors regarding speed for these units are motor gearing and ride of the bogies, rather than any lack of horsepower and wind resistance.

 

[northwichcat]

Hype mode activate! I presume these will be 2-car units?

They'll be 2 car DEMUs.

 

[jon0844]

so why not put fibreglass noses on them and reduce drag?..in fact this could also double up as a safety feature,if filled with some kind of crumple-zone type material.....much better from a drivers perspective.
you can squeeze a couple of extra mph and conserve a bit of energy that way.

your average motorcyclist can tell you that it's a far more comfortable ride even at 60mph with a bit of fairing to redirect the wind...let alone the front end of a 230 which is nearly 3m*2 running right into it.

I don't know about any other design changes but I know they're now getting someone who does train liveries to work on these (source: Twitter, via Geoff Marshall) - so it should be interesting to see how they turn out given the prototypes look(ed) rather odd and unfinished.

 

[BucksBones]

I’m surprised there’s no interest in these from Chiltern for the Aylesbury-Risborough branch. It would free up much needed 165s.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Anyone reckon this will be a "pilot scheme" that other TOCs may closely watch to see how LNR get on with the 230s on the Marston Vale line?

If this goes successfully then other TOCs possibly could come forward with orders for rural/branch lines to replace Pacers in Devon/Cornwall, Wales and the North?

 

[gazthomas]

I’m surprised there’s no interest in these from Chiltern for the Aylesbury-Risborough branch. It would free up much needed 165s.

All the more surprising given the historic relationship they have with Vivarail’s Adrian Shooter

 

[Bantamzen]

Anyone reckon this will be a "pilot scheme" that other TOCs may closely watch to see how LNR get on with the 230s on the Marston Vale line?

If this goes successfully then other TOCs possibly could come forward with orders for rural/branch lines to replace Pacers in Devon/Cornwall, Wales and the North?

Well the North, as in Northern already has a comprehensive plan to replace Pacers with new 195s, plus cascades of 15x/170s. So no, they are not likely to be waiting to see how the 230s go.

 

[47802]

Anyone reckon this will be a "pilot scheme" that other TOCs may closely watch to see how LNR get on with the 230s on the Marston Vale line?

If this goes successfully then other TOCs possibly could come forward with orders for rural/branch lines to replace Pacers in Devon/Cornwall, Wales and the North?

Why would that be there is already a plan to replace Pacers up North and the South West so why constantly drag it up.

I remember Shooter making the following comment about D230's " We can make them like new trains not only that but the best new train you've ever had"

Yeh I think we will see on that one, in fact lets compare to a new train much of which we can do without stepping into either.

195 verses 230.

195 Higher Top Speed
195 Air Conditioning
195 Higher Seating Capacity
195 Toilet unclear as to whether a 2 Car 230 can have a toilet or not
195 Designed for 21st century Crash Regs, 230 designed for late 70's regs and strengthened up recently.
195 New train designed to be a DMU not a recycled EMU.
195 Looks like a 21st century train not a 1980's train
195 Uses proven diesel engine in rail application.

230 Unproven engine in rail environment.
230 May be cheaper to run
230 May be easier to maintain locally
230 May be cheaper to Buy/Lease but considering your buying a 35 year old train with some new bits may not be that cheap relatively speaking.
230 Train actually older than the train aimed at replacing i.e Pacer, with lower top speed

 

[D365]

I remember Shooter making the following comment about D230's " We can make them like new trains not only that but the best new train you've ever had"

Really? I’d like to see a source on that one.

Anyway, I really don’t think Vivarail are targeting Pacer replacement anymore. All things going well I’d really like to see them pushing the adoption of battery technology on the rail network. That’s where the interest should be and I’m glad they have taken the opportunity.

Don’t forget that Bombardier have stated their Aventras are capable of being fitted with batteries. It just needs the ROSCOs and TOCs to be convinced that this is very much a viable option.

The more investment we see going into battery technology, well, the more it will continue to develop.

 

[47802]

Really? I’d like to see a source on that one.

.

OK I stand corrected "Best new trains in the Country" was what he actually said"

 

[D365]

OK I stand corrected "Best new trains in the Country" was what he actually said"

Some would say that the Class 700s aren’t much of a challenge

But in terms of pushing engineering innovation, like I’ve said they’re a leader on that particular front.

 

[47802]

Some would say that the Class 700s aren’t much of a challenge

But in terms of pushing engineering innovation, like I’ve said they’re a leader on that particular front.

Yeh well we will see what the Marston Vale punters think of the "Best New Trains in the Country" and how reliable the Transit Van engine train turns out to be.

As for not targeting Pacer replacement well that's because nobody wants their junk as Pacer replacement, and I doubt the battery stuff offers anything over the large Manufacturers couldn't offer other than the fact that the D train is fairly light train.

 

[Julia]

What I think has been missing from the discussion is the possibility of ending up with a low-cost readily available spot hire fleet. The existing DMU fleet is intensively diagrammed (and the amount of complex interworking between branches and main lines is a symptom of that) and when a unit goes long-term sick either due to a mishap or an expensive failure, there's no slack. Ergo, cancellations and short-forms. If there was an option to pick up a 230 and put it on a self-contained branch-line diagram to free up a main-line unit, perhaps we'd see service levels maintained better...

 

[t_star2001uk]

All the more surprising given the historic relationship they have with Vivarail’s Adrian Shooter

And why would that influence a decision to hire these units.

 

[gazthomas]

And why would that influence a decision to hire these units.

Personal relationships in business go a long way that’s why