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Passengers stuck on trains overnight in New Forest (01/03 - 02/03)

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Bletchleyite

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Just seen the lady bus driver from this bus in an interview on the lunchtime news. She said it felt slower. She didn't think a lot of it until someone later showed her the video from the news and she realised it was her driving.

She seems to be being hailed a hero for avoiding the car.

It does seem the car driver was turning deliberately which makes him out to be a fool if so, but the bus driver quite possibly was going a bit quick because it could easily have been the car driver losing control due to a skid in snow. Usually it feels slower in a bus than a car as you're higher up.
 
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pt_mad

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I think its not unreasonable for a reporter who is looking at a train with "SOUTH WEST TRAINS" displayed on every coach to refer to that company, after all 99% of the population could not care less who runs a particular train. If a franchise holder cannot change the name after 6 months it is hardly surprising.

Off topic but why does it still say south west trains when SWR have had the franchise quite a while and nearly every west midlands trains unit has been re-liveried and that's only since December.
 

Siemens Staines

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Pretty pathetic that BBC News at One just reported that "South West Trains" apologised! At least get the company name right.

Easy mistake to make when the BBC report from lineside with the stranded 444012 in the background has South West Trains in big letters on the side.
 

waynemorrell

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Off topic but why does it still say south west trains when SWR have had the franchise quite a while and nearly every west midlands trains unit has been re-liveried and that's only since December.

Not sure but I’ve seen ScotRail 158’s roaming around the Highlands in the Merry Christmas livery, as recent as last Saturday. Still as you say veering off topic now!
 

Juniper Driver

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If it wasn't able to stop before reaching the car it was going too fast. In these conditions it is necessary to be VERY defensive in your driving. A likely assumption is that any other vehicle you can see, even going the other way or approaching the main road from a side road, may go out of control in front of you. You therefore have to assume they WILL do this. The bus driver evidently did not do so.

I thought it was going to fast for the conditions....but maybe I am wrong.

Easy mistake to make when the BBC report from lineside with the stranded 444012 in the background has South West Trains in big letters on the side.

Not really.It's lazy reporting again and yet again not getting the facts right.

Yes I can see that as being harsh as with the branding of the 444 being out of date.
 

theageofthetra

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Years ago in the days before ABS I was driving down a lane near Wrotham in Kent (now closed due to the number of accidents) & despite doing less than walking pace my car slide on ice down the lane building up speed and ended up sideways onto the A20. Just by luck the lights were red so nothing was coming.
 

Juniper Driver

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Not really, no. It's a totally understandable mistake to make, and doesn't really mislead anybody. Better than a lazy TOC not bothering to rebrand, perhaps!

They aren't lazy.I've seen one 444 with the new sticker on.One painted in the livery.All 458's done/707 and most of the 455/456...Not sure about 158/159 as I haven't been paying attention.So as they haven't got to some 444's and perhaps 450's doesn't make them lazy.
 

swt_passenger

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Off topic but why does it still say south west trains when SWR have had the franchise quite a while and nearly every west midlands trains unit has been re-liveried and that's only since December.
Because in this case the outgoing TOC was not required to remove branding before handover. DfT own the SWT brand, and were apparently happy for it to remain, as was discussed in the main SWR franchise thread last August...
 

BantamMenace

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At what stage would the British Army be called in, I doubt their are too many areas of the country where 25 squaddies, 10 Land Rovers and 5 MAN SV troop carriers couldn't be within 6 hours.

This location especially with the 101st Logistics Brigade being based at Aldershot Garrison shouldn't have been too much of a stretch if they were informed early enough.
 

xotGD

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South west trains, south western trains, south west rail, south western rail, south west railways, south western railways. All the same thing to 99.99% of people.

Plus those from the rest of the country would assume from the name that they operate in Cornwall.
 

bb21

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Not only prepared to admit a mistake, but to compound it by saying I was 'bitching'.

Lessons are never learnt from these major incidents. The XC passed Ashurst at 2048 last night with no further train behind it. It took until circa 0830 to arrive at Bournemouth after going wrong road and collecting stranded passengers on trains with no heat. Some of those passengers were stranded for14-15 hours.

Had a prompt decision and plan been formulated that operation could have been accomplished wiyhin 3 hours.

There is a systemic failure in the WICC when it comes to handling these incidents. This is not about individuals but about the WICC as a whole.

You can stick your fingers in your ears and pretend everything's fine, but it's not.

There were phone line issues which initially hampered communication between the panel and WICC, but a plan was formulated to have the failed unit rescued by the one behind (as you would), which also unfortunately failed after very slow progress initially with several intermittent false starts. There were issues with platform occupation back at Southampton by the time both trains were declared a failure by the driver (which was gone 0100 by then) due to all the trains now going nowhere and Northam now full. Evacuation plans were then drawn up with request for help put out to BTP who had no unit available. Various attempts were made to source replacement road transport in various forms and accommodation but to no avail, so evacuating all 200+ stranded passengers would then deposit most of them at Bournemouth station, still stranded with insufficient shelter, and a decision was made to keep them onboard and concentrate effort on getting things moving with intermittent line light and sufficient de-icer for the shoegears. Unfortunately attempts at getting trains moving were unsuccessful. Road access was nigh on impossible. The option to deploy the diesel unit on the Lymington shuttle for evacuation was also explored, but put to bed due to a set of frozen points. The decision was then made to have 1O24 as the rescue train with the clock now at 0500. No MOM were able to attend for various reasons. Two members of PWAY attended at 0230 who helped with de-icing tasks, etc.

There was one error I could see, in that the driver of 1O24 missed one of the stranded trains due allegedly to miscommunication, which meant he had to reverse back and pick up those passengers, delaying the rescue operation by about an hour.

From what I can see, lots of decisions were made promptly the moment it became clear that a proposed course of action would not work over the course of the incident. No, it didn't work out as well as everyone would have hoped, and yes, with hindsight it may have been better to simply have 1O24 make a WDM the moment the first train failed and take all passengers, but hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? If that didn't work out then I am sure criticism would have been forthcoming in why this course of action was taken instead of trying to get the culprit train moving since it had line light from time to time, delaying everything by a few hours. Had 100+ (possibly more) passengers been stranded at Bournemouth station, now exposed to the elements at 4am, I am sure similar criticism would also have been sent the same way.

I do not have fingers in my ear. Not once did I say the WICC were perfect in their handling of this incident, or any other ones, far from it. Something definitely went very wrong last night the way things turned out, and I'm sure plenty of things can be learned from the incident. It is your allegation that they cannot make decisions promptly that is patently incorrect in this case.

As I said time and time again, I have no problem whatsoever with criticism, as it is a great source for learning. What I will not accept, and will robustly challenge, is unfair criticism.
 

goblinuser

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Not really.It's lazy reporting again and yet again not getting the facts right.

It's not lazy at all. How are jounralists and media people meant to know that a train with SOUTH WEST TRAINS branded all over is for some reason not in fact SWT? There are many times when the media gets specific facts wrong, but this is not one of them and is completely understandable.
 

Juniper Driver

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It's not lazy at all. How are jounralists and media people meant to know that a train with SOUTH WEST TRAINS branded all over is for some reason not in fact SWT? There are many times when the media gets specific facts wrong, but this is not one of them and is completely understandable.

A bit of research may do.After all it is their job.

Yup you are right,there are many times the media gets specific facts wrong.
 

ChiefPlanner

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In the depths of the New Forest, I think it would have been unavoidably obvious to them that being outside really wouldn't have been any better.

I must say this strikes me as a completely unjustified comment. What exactly do you know about the situation to judge whether “more efforts should have been made”.

Interesting you’re now on here criticising SWR when I seem to remember the other days you were criticising another TOC for running fewer trains based on the snow forecast.



Since you’re apparently such an expert on railway operations in bad weather maybe you should volunteer your services to network rail as a consultant :rolleyes:.
There were phone line issues which initially hampered communication between the panel and WICC, but a plan was formulated to have the failed unit rescued by the one behind (as you would), which also unfortunately failed after very slow progress initially with several intermittent false starts. There were issues with platform occupation back at Southampton by the time both trains were declared a failure by the driver (which was gone 0100 by then) due to all the trains now going nowhere and Northam now full. Evacuation plans were then drawn up with request for help put out to BTP who had no unit available. Various attempts were made to source replacement road transport in various forms and accommodation but to no avail, so evacuating all 200+ stranded passengers would then deposit most of them at Bournemouth station, still stranded with insufficient shelter, and a decision was made to keep them onboard and concentrate effort on getting things moving with intermittent line light and sufficient de-icer for the shoegears. Unfortunately attempts at getting trains moving were unsuccessful. Road access was nigh on impossible. The option to deploy the diesel unit on the Lymington shuttle for evacuation was also explored, but put to bed due to a set of frozen points. The decision was then made to have 1O24 as the rescue train with the clock now at 0500. No MOM were able to attend for various reasons. Two members of PWAY attended at 0230 who helped with de-icing tasks, etc.

There was one error I could see, in that the driver of 1O24 missed one of the stranded trains due allegedly to miscommunication, which meant he had to reverse back and pick up those passengers, delaying the rescue operation by about an hour.

From what I can see, lots of decisions were made promptly the moment it became clear that a proposed course of action would not work over the course of the incident. No, it didn't work out as well as everyone would have hoped, and yes, with hindsight it may have been better to simply have 1O24 make a WDM the moment the first train failed and take all passengers, but hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? If that didn't work out then I am sure criticism would have been forthcoming in why this course of action was taken instead of trying to get the culprit train moving since it had line light from time to time, delaying everything by a few hours. Had 100+ (possibly more) passengers been stranded at Bournemouth station, now exposed to the elements at 4am, I am sure similar criticism would also have been sent the same way.

I do not have fingers in my ear. Not once did I say the WICC were perfect in their handling of this incident, or any other ones, far from it. Something definitely went very wrong last night the way things turned out, and I'm sure plenty of things can be learned from the incident. It is your allegation that they cannot make decisions promptly that is patently incorrect in this case.

As I said time and time again, I have no problem whatsoever with criticism, as it is a great source for learning. What I will not accept, and will robustly challenge, is unfair criticism.


Excellent - and very honest response - and whilst it made the media (being a train , it would) , I am sure that the debrief and lessons learnt excercise will add value. Things were done , but events seemed to conspire against them.
 

Bletchleyite

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Excellent - and very honest response - and whilst it made the media (being a train , it would) , I am sure that the debrief and lessons learnt excercise will add value. Things were done , but events seemed to conspire against them.

FWIW I think the railway have been doing a good job generally. There have been bad bits, but they seem genuinely trying hard to maintain some semblance of a service while the roads (their usual backup) clog up around them. That's what the good old-fashioned railway can be good at when it tries, and it should be proud of it.
 

pompeyfan

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There were phone line issues which initially hampered communication between the panel and WICC, but a plan was formulated to have the failed unit rescued by the one behind (as you would), which also unfortunately failed after very slow progress initially with several intermittent false starts. There were issues with platform occupation back at Southampton by the time both trains were declared a failure by the driver (which was gone 0100 by then) due to all the trains now going nowhere and Northam now full. Evacuation plans were then drawn up with request for help put out to BTP who had no unit available. Various attempts were made to source replacement road transport in various forms and accommodation but to no avail, so evacuating all 200+ stranded passengers would then deposit most of them at Bournemouth station, still stranded with insufficient shelter, and a decision was made to keep them onboard and concentrate effort on getting things moving with intermittent line light and sufficient de-icer for the shoegears. Unfortunately attempts at getting trains moving were unsuccessful. Road access was nigh on impossible. The option to deploy the diesel unit on the Lymington shuttle for evacuation was also explored, but put to bed due to a set of frozen points. The decision was then made to have 1O24 as the rescue train with the clock now at 0500. No MOM were able to attend for various reasons. Two members of PWAY attended at 0230 who helped with de-icing tasks, etc.

There was one error I could see, in that the driver of 1O24 missed one of the stranded trains due allegedly to miscommunication, which meant he had to reverse back and pick up those passengers, delaying the rescue operation by about an hour.

From what I can see, lots of decisions were made promptly the moment it became clear that a proposed course of action would not work over the course of the incident. No, it didn't work out as well as everyone would have hoped, and yes, with hindsight it may have been better to simply have 1O24 make a WDM the moment the first train failed and take all passengers, but hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? If that didn't work out then I am sure criticism would have been forthcoming in why this course of action was taken instead of trying to get the culprit train moving since it had line light from time to time, delaying everything by a few hours. Had 100+ (possibly more) passengers been stranded at Bournemouth station, now exposed to the elements at 4am, I am sure similar criticism would also have been sent the same way.

I do not have fingers in my ear. Not once did I say the WICC were perfect in their handling of this incident, or any other ones, far from it. Something definitely went very wrong last night the way things turned out, and I'm sure plenty of things can be learned from the incident. It is your allegation that they cannot make decisions promptly that is patently incorrect in this case.

As I said time and time again, I have no problem whatsoever with criticism, as it is a great source for learning. What I will not accept, and will robustly challenge, is unfair criticism.

Excellent and honest summary. Appreciate that.

Do we know why more MPVs weren’t sent down that way? Lack of Resources or poor judgement?
 

Llanigraham

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At what stage would the British Army be called in, I doubt their are too many areas of the country where 25 squaddies, 10 Land Rovers and 5 MAN SV troop carriers couldn't be within 6 hours.

This location especially with the 101st Logistics Brigade being based at Aldershot Garrison shouldn't have been too much of a stretch if they were informed early enough.

Having been involved in similar situations, one of the first questions asked by MoD nowadays is "Who is paying?"
 

ChiefPlanner

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FWIW I think the railway have been doing a good job generally. There have been bad bits, but they seem genuinely trying hard to maintain some semblance of a service while the roads (their usual backup) clog up around them. That's what the good old-fashioned railway can be good at when it tries, and it should be proud of it.


Lot of really proactive stuff going on - the dewired train south of Kings Lynn had a posse of 4x4 sent out to detrain the passengers, (done quite quickly too) , the stalled 14x on the Carlisle - Newcastle line had the passengers (no more than a dozen) , rescued by a light engine which did 2 passes , as well as a lot of really hard graft by a great bunch of people. In awful and anti social hours as well.

Not much glory in de-icing in the small hours. Though I suspect the snow clearance and route proving teams enjoyed the variety - especially when you 50049 charging drifts yesterday on the MML south of Leicester.
 

AlterEgo

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There was a clip played on BBC news yesterday throughout the day of a car going very slowly but that was skidding and sliding into the other side of the road on some trunk road. It came to a stop on the wrong side and there's a bus seen coming towards it looks like it can't brake and suddenly at the last minute or slides past to avoid the car narrowly.
Made me wonder in a situation like that if there was an accident, would there be a hunt for blame or would it simply be put down to the weather? I mean it's not dangerous driving or without due care and attention as as long as you are giving it fill attention what else can you do?

The clip in question featured a car doing a turn in the road. It hadn’t slipped into the other carriageway, it was there deliberately as part of a three point turn.

The turn itself didn’t even begin on the far left of the carriageway and should absolutely not have been attempted in those conditions (especially with the poor visibility). It would have taken about 20-25 seconds to execute properly which is not an acceptable risk on a main road, in the snow and ice, and where visibility is less than 200 feet.

In my opinion the bus was also travelling too fast for the conditions. Your vehicle should be able to stop in the distance you can see ahead, minus a little for reaction time. You also have to take into account the fact you’re driving on snow. I would not have gone above 20 mph in those conditions. I’ve been driving every day this week.
 

AlterEgo

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Having been involved in similar situations, one of the first questions asked by MoD nowadays is "Who is paying?"

Surely the Army would - it is after all Military Aid to the Civil Power/Community. This is part of the reason we have the armed forces.
 

MG11

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Both trains in question were 444s. In the end, CrossCountry's 1O24 reversed to Totton to cross over, and go "down" the "up" line to rescue the 150 odd passengers on both stranded units. I'm surprised it took them that long to decide to do that. I found some photos on Twitter, people seemed to be making their own arrangements on board the train;

DXPll7YW0AAoZLm.jpg

DXPll7XWkAEF6RT.jpg

https://twitter.com/dsamanthaj/status/969370802851368961
Was there a Rail Gourmet trolley onboard this service so that passengers could atleast buy a hot drink to keep warm?
 

Domh245

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Was there a Rail Gourmet trolley onboard this service so that passengers could atleast buy a hot drink to keep warm?

I think that there was, but the chap being interviewed on the today program just before they disembarked reported that it'd run out of stock early into the night
 

GarethC

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Surely the Army would - it is after all Military Aid to the Civil Power/Community. This is part of the reason we have the armed forces.

Charging the cost for using MoD facilities reminds me of this episode of Yes Prime Minister where the PM gets the bill for rescuing a dog from Salisbury Plain.

Unfortunately as generally speaking budgets and costings are so tight in the public sector today everything is recharged to the body that commissions it to offset the department budget.
 

Bletchleyite

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The clip in question featured a car doing a turn in the road. It hadn’t slipped into the other carriageway, it was there deliberately as part of a three point turn.

The turn itself didn’t even begin on the far left of the carriageway and should absolutely not have been attempted in those conditions (especially with the poor visibility). It would have taken about 20-25 seconds to execute properly which is not an acceptable risk on a main road, in the snow and ice, and where visibility is less than 200 feet.

In my opinion the bus was also travelling too fast for the conditions. Your vehicle should be able to stop in the distance you can see ahead, minus a little for reaction time. You also have to take into account the fact you’re driving on snow. I would not have gone above 20 mph in those conditions. I’ve been driving every day this week.

I agree with this. The car driver made a dangerous manoeuvre, but the bus driver was not driving defensively enough for the conditions and should have been going at a speed where the (rather impressive) manoeuvre would be easily avoidable.

Had there been an accident it'd have probably gone 50-50 on insurance.
 

matt_world2004

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A bit of research may do.After all it is their job.

Yup you are right,there are many times the media gets specific facts wrong.

And a railways job is to get people between two fixed points on a timetabled service not leave them in a forest overnight one of these mistakes is more serious than another
 

a_c_skinner

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There are also relatively few air ambulances - one typically covers more than one county and, if they can fly at all, are likely to be very thinly spread during a major crisis.

They generally don't fly at night. You cannot see powerlines for landing sites.
 

Mag_seven

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Both trains in question were 444s. In the end, CrossCountry's 1O24 reversed to Totton to cross over, and go "down" the "up" line to rescue the 150 odd passengers on both stranded units. I'm surprised it took them that long to decide to do that. I found some photos on Twitter, people seemed to be making their own arrangements on board the train;

DXPll7YW0AAoZLm.jpg

DXPll7XWkAEF6RT.jpg

https://twitter.com/dsamanthaj/status/969370802851368961

Surprised the "spirit of the blitz" cliche has not been wheeled out yet. :D
 
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