Passengers stuck on trains overnight in New Forest (01/03 - 02/03)

[al78]

There was a clip played on BBC news yesterday throughout the day of a car going very slowly but that was skidding and sliding into the other side of the road on some trunk road. It came to a stop on the wrong side and there's a bus seen coming towards it looks like it can't brake and suddenly at the last minute or slides past to avoid the car narrowly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-43255368

I'm not sure from that footage whether the car driver lost control and slid onto the wrong side of the road, or whether they were doing a U turn trying to go back the way they came. If the latter it looks to me it was careless as the approaching bus is visible at the point the driver starts their manoeuvre.

 

[Llanigraham]

This sort of situation is completely unacceptable, what if someone had a medical emergency? I bet then the emergency services would've have been there sharpish!

I doubt it!
I can only respond from another closed group I am on, but even the Emergency Services were unable to cope last night, and were using volunteer 4x4 drivers to assist ambulances etc to get to incidents. Unfortunately weather conditions had also stopped any air support available.

Locally to me a person fell and broke their hip and femur. Due to road conditions it took 45 minutes for an ambulance to arrive and the usual journey to Aberystwyth Hospital via the A44 had to be extended to going via Caersws and Machynlleth, and required a 4x4 escort.

Please get your facts straight!

 

[matt_world2004]

Could be worse . Northern would issue a fixed penalty notice for having an expired train ticket when it pulled into the station the next morning.

 

[bb21]

I have diabetes, I only carry enough insulin for the day, what if I went hypo? No buffet car on that service, so I couldn't even maintain my sugar levels if I was on that train, SWR should've done more!

That's what ambulances and 999 are for, aren't they?

I guess you work in the WICC then as it seem to have touched a raw nerve.

Firstly I've not implied individual staff "didnt even try hard enough",so please acknowledge that your statement is incorrect.

However, in excess of 15 years experience at the sharp end I know it can be extremely hard to get a timely decision from the WICC during disruption, a sentiment shared by many signallers I've found. Then communication of that decision to people who need to know can be patchy.

I'm happy to acknowledge when good, timely decisions are made and communicated in a timely manner to the front line, but there is scope for huge improvement.

No, I do not work in the WICC, but I have certainly been alongside during disruption numerous times.

We are not talking about how they normally behave in this thread. We are discussing what happened last night. I have pulled my hair out at times with them, yes, because they can make mistakes sometimes and/or be indecisive until too late, but nothing I can see from last night points to it. Events took several unexpected turns after plans were put in place. All avenues were explored but to no avail.

I have had several arguments with them over various issues. Sometimes I have to take a step back and put myself in their shoes after having had a good moan in the aftermath of what appears to be very poor performance from them. On a few occasions I had good discussions with relevant personnel, and I always gained new insight into factors in play that I weren't even aware of beforehand. Each role is different. I would think other ops staff on the front line would take the same attitude rather than slag each other off, especially in public, but yes, I am aware that there is no love-in between several different grades in the job. My job forces me to work well in collaboration with other functions so over time it made it more natural to see things from my colleagues' perspective, I think.

 

[bb21]

Quite agree with this.

I’m definitely not saying I could guarantee to do better in these specific circumstances, nor could anyone else. Although the last time Southern had a train “arc-welded” (as the press put it) to the track, to give one appropriate example, the delay in rescuing passengers was deemed unacceptable and yet it was only about half the time taken in this instance. This was the 313 incident near Southease not so long ago.

It must be said that the WICC is regrettably well-known amongst other control rooms for not doing stuff very quickly compared to KICC, TBROC etc. The quality of the decisions seems to have improved, but not the speed - which is of the essence when you have people trapped on cold trains.

With respect, KICC hardly did any better the few occasions I was there during disruption.
Hearsay and chit-chats can be very misleading sometimes.

Criticism does not bother me at all, but each incident is different. Blank criticism without knowing any of the specifics of each case seem highly unfair to me, and as I said upthread, I would expect fellow front-line ops staff to show a bit more understanding.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I have diabetes, I only carry enough insulin for the day, what if I went hypo? No buffet car on that service, so I couldn't even maintain my sugar levels if I was on that train, SWR should've done more!

What can they do? The conditions meant the train got stuck, local roads were impassable to the point that the military were busy helping stranded motorists. In adverse weather someone with a medical condition should prepare for example carrying some glucose or something like that.

 

[waynemorrell]

I guess you work in the WICC then as it seem to have touched a raw nerve.

WICC?

 

[Bletchleyite]

True. But someone who lives in an isolated (even by SE standards) farm house would likely have made contingency plans - especially if they suffered from diabetes or other conditions which require medication.

I have a blood sugar disorder. Given the weather I'm staying at home.

If I HAD to travel then I would go well prepared.

Yes, this. It would be very stupid (and I think stupid is a fair term) for anyone with a medical condition with a timely need for medication to go out for any distance in the present conditions without carrying at least two, probably three, days supply of medication and, for a diabetic, food necessary to maintain their sugar level for at least two days (so a stack of Snickers bars or similar), and probably also sensibly water. People have to take some responsibility for themselves when they have been warned unambiguously that it is best to stay home.

In normal conditions if you go hiking up a mountain you wear stout shoes and take spare clothes, plenty of water, emergency food and spare medication in case you get stuck overnight, as it can happen. Those precautions are needed for *leaving the house* in most parts of the UK at present unless you're simply walking to the local shop. The conditions outside are basically the same as winter hillwalking except you don't have to walk up an actual hill.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-43255368

I'm not sure from that footage whether the car driver lost control and slid onto the wrong side of the road, or whether they were doing a U turn trying to go back the way they came. If the latter it looks to me it was careless as the approaching bus is visible at the point the driver starts their manoeuvre.

The bus was however going too fast, as you have to assume there is a distinct possibility that another vehicle will unintentionally end up in front of you when on heavy snow/ice. My approach has been that (in my Land Rover) 20-30mph has been fine when well away from other vehicles or any pedestrians, but 10 probably nearer common-sense when there is something that could viably end up in my path even on the other side of the road.

Essentially you have to drive on snow and ice as if your brakes were completely non-functional (yes, I know you wouldn't actually drive were that actually the case). The bus was clearly not doing that - clearly a lot of skill was shown in the manoeuvre, but the manoeuvre should not have been necessary.

 

[Bromley boy]

WICC?

Wessex Integrated Control Centre.

 

[Domh245]

WICC?

Wessex Integrated Control Centre (I think) - essentially the Network Rail controllers and the SWR controllers sat in the same room

 

[bb21]

WICC?

Wessex Integrated Control Centre.

Similarly KICC - Kent Integrated Control Centre.

 

[theironroad]

That's what ambulances and 999 are for, aren't they?



No, I do not work in the WICC, but I have certainly been alongside during disruption numerous times.

We are not talking about how they normally behave in this thread. We are discussing what happened last night. I have pulled my hair out at times with them, yes, because they can make mistakes sometimes and/or be indecisive until too late, but nothing I can see from last night points to it. Events took several unexpected turns after plans were put in place. All avenues were explored but to no avail.

I have had several arguments with them over various issues. Sometimes I have to take a step back and put myself in their shoes after having had a good moan in the aftermath of what appears to be very poor performance from them. On a few occasions I had good discussions with relevant personnel, and I always gained new insight into factors in play that I weren't even aware of beforehand. Each role is different. I would think other ops staff on the front line would take the same attitude rather than slag each other off, especially in public, but yes, I am aware that there is no love-in between several different grades in the job. My job forces me to work well in collaboration with other functions so over time it made it more natural to see things from my colleagues' perspective, I think.

Guess you must be a manager as you've stilled failed to acknowledge the false and inaccurate statement you attributed to me let alone had the decency to apologise.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes, this. It would be very stupid (and I think stupid is a fair term) for anyone with a medical condition with a timely need for medication to go out for any distance in the present conditions without carrying at least two, probably three, days supply of medication and, for a diabetic, food necessary to maintain their sugar level for at least two days (so a stack of Snickers bars or similar), and probably also sensibly water. People have to take some responsibility for themselves when they have been warned unambiguously that it is best to stay home.

In normal conditions if you go hiking up a mountain you wear stout shoes and take spare clothes, plenty of water, emergency food and spare medication in case you get stuck overnight, as it can happen. Those precautions are needed for *leaving the house* in most parts of the UK at present unless you're simply walking to the local shop. The conditions outside are basically the same as winter hillwalking except you don't have to walk up an actual hill.



The bus was however going too fast, as you have to assume there is a distinct possibility that another vehicle will unintentionally end up in front of you when on heavy snow/ice. My approach has been that (in my Land Rover) 20-30mph has been fine when well away from other vehicles or any pedestrians, but 10 probably nearer common-sense when there is something that could viably end up in my path even on the other side of the road.

Essentially you have to drive on snow and ice as if your brakes were completely non-functional (yes, I know you wouldn't actually drive were that actually the case). The bus was clearly not doing that - clearly a lot of skill was shown in the manoeuvre, but the manoeuvre should not have been necessary.

The more I look at that video, the more I realise that the bus really isn't going very fast at all, it's a bit of an illusion created by the camera angle and lens.

 

[Antman]

Pretty pathetic that BBC News at One just reported that "South West Trains" apologised! At least get the company name right.

A lot of people still call it SWT, pretty minor detail really.

 

[DarloRich]

This sort of situation is completely unacceptable, what if someone had a medical emergency? I bet then the emergency services would've have been there sharpish!

I despair at this board at times - perhaps SWT should have asked a section of the Royal Marines to fly in by Chinook and deploy their snow tracs!

 

[bb21]

Guess you must be a manager as you've stilled failed to acknowledge the false and inaccurate statement you attributed to me let alone had the decency to apologise.

No, I don't feel the need to apologise, because in my opinion your allegations were wholly baseless and grossly unfair, and I don't think the implications of your bitching was that difficult to see.

No, I am not a manager, in the usual grading sense, but I do have to work with practically every single function, NR and TOC.

To top it up, you are now bitching about management in addition to your industry colleagues? Wow!!

 

[Bromley boy]

I despair at this board at times - perhaps SWT should have asked a section of the Royal Marines to fly in by Chinook and deploy their snow tracs!

Or, failing that... “5,4,3....”

 

[theironroad]

No, I don't feel the need to apologise, because in my opinion your allegations were wholly baseless and grossly unfair, and I don't think the implications of your bitching was that difficult to see.

No, I am not a manager, in the usual grading sense, but I do have to work with practically every single function, NR and TOC.

Not only prepared to admit a mistake, but to compound it by saying I was 'bitching'.

Lessons are never learnt from these major incidents. The XC passed Ashurst at 2048 last night with no further train behind it. It took until circa 0830 to arrive at Bournemouth after going wrong road and collecting stranded passengers on trains with no heat. Some of those passengers were stranded for14-15 hours.

Had a prompt decision and plan been formulated that operation could have been accomplished wiyhin 3 hours.

There is a systemic failure in the WICC when it comes to handling these incidents. This is not about individuals but about the WICC as a whole.

You can stick your fingers in your ears and pretend everything's fine, but it's not.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I have diabetes, I only carry enough insulin for the day, what if I went hypo? No buffet car on that service, so I couldn't even maintain my sugar levels if I was on that train, SWR should've done more!

Sorry to go off-topic, but what treatment regime in 2018 doesn't allow you to have more than a day's insulin with you? Unless you're on a particularly high dosage regime, most modern delivery methods have a capacity that lasts around a week.

I will echo the posters who have said to take emergency supplies. Fun-size bags of skittles are handy as they're 13g sugar and will fit in pretty much any pocket of a coat or bag- and unlike Dextro tablets they won't turn into dust in the pocket. Always stock up on them at Halloween!
You really shouldn't be going out without emergency sugar though, you're taking your life in your hands.

You'd have opened your mouth and said so, it would have become clear it was an emergency situation, and no doubt some kind of emergency arrangements could have been considered.

And maybe if you go out on a train having been advised not to travel, it might not be a terrible idea to carry more than that, even if it would result in it being binned (I believe it doesn't keep well). Similarly stout shoes and warm clothing are advisable in such circumstances in case a walk is needed. It's no different from going out by car and taking a shovel, blankets and flask of tea.

Agree about being prepared. I always have multiple emergency sugars in my bag, and the insulin pens/cartridges last 5-7 days. Failing that (and I have on occasion gone out without an important component of the whole shebang) would the first-aid boxes on trains have glucose gel in?

 

[Juniper Driver]

I would expect fellow front-line ops staff to show a bit more understanding.

Totally agree.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Or, failing that... “5,4,3....”

View attachment 43357

They are only imitation ones though, the real thing has a TOPS number on the side

 

[The Ham]

I have diabetes, I only carry enough insulin for the day, what if I went hypo? No buffet car on that service, so I couldn't even maintain my sugar levels if I was on that train, SWR should've done more!

Personally if I was to travel on a train when the guidance was not to travel unless necessary I would make sure that I was well prepared and I don't have any health risks that would be problematic if I was without food or water for a day.

As others have said if there was someone with a medical need, such as yourself, then the level of response would have been escalated. However chances are most people on that train would have been OK to stay put.

I went for a walk yesterday (well prepared for the weather) and even walking in a suburban area when the snow was falling wasn't a pleasant experience and so given the choice I would have stayed in the train. Mostly because of the impact of the wind, which both reduces the temperature and was blowing snow into my eyes.

 

[Wombat]

What if someone’s eyes had fallen out, or their arms disappeared?

That happened to me once. Then I couldn't produce a valid ticket upon request - I had one but couldn't produce it, due to having no arms or eyes - and the guard threw me out of the window as we were going over a bridge. Bloody SWT.

(I'm touch-typing this with my nose, which is remarkably accurate all things considered)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The more I look at that video, the more I realise that the bus really isn't going very fast at all, it's a bit of an illusion created by the camera angle and lens.

If it wasn't able to stop before reaching the car it was going too fast. In these conditions it is necessary to be VERY defensive in your driving. A likely assumption is that any other vehicle you can see, even going the other way or approaching the main road from a side road, may go out of control in front of you. You therefore have to assume they WILL do this. The bus driver evidently did not do so.

 

[ComUtoR]

It must be said that the WICC is regrettably well-known amongst other control rooms for not doing stuff very quickly compared to KICC,

I work with KICC. They are !"£"!£$"$"£ Seriously for 2 days now I have watched the service collapse. No thanks to KICC for making some seriously bad decisions.

 

[The Ham]

Pretty pathetic that BBC News at One just reported that "South West Trains" apologised! At least get the company name right.

I bet SWR are happy about it and are glad it's one of the unchanged units that was involved so that by those who don't know the difference their brand hasn't been impacted as much as it could have been.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I bet SWR are happy about it and are glad it's one of the unchanged units that was involved so that by those who don't know the difference their brand hasn't been impacted as much as it could have been.

I don't see what adverse publicity their brand would get for this kind of thing, it's not like it's their fault.

 

[Starmill]

As an idea, my boiler condensate pipe froze (as has happened to many).. it's never happened before and I've lived here 7 years.

Similar story here. It has not happened before but it did last night. The wind in Greater Manchester was also blowing hard.

 

[pt_mad]

Yes, this. It would be very stupid (and I think stupid is a fair term) for anyone with a medical condition with a timely need for medication to go out for any distance in the present conditions without carrying at least two, probably three, days supply of medication and, for a diabetic, food necessary to maintain their sugar level for at least two days (so a stack of Snickers bars or similar), and probably also sensibly water. People have to take some responsibility for themselves when they have been warned unambiguously that it is best to stay home.

In normal conditions if you go hiking up a mountain you wear stout shoes and take spare clothes, plenty of water, emergency food and spare medication in case you get stuck overnight, as it can happen. Those precautions are needed for *leaving the house* in most parts of the UK at present unless you're simply walking to the local shop. The conditions outside are basically the same as winter hillwalking except you don't have to walk up an actual hill.



The bus was however going too fast, as you have to assume there is a distinct possibility that another vehicle will unintentionally end up in front of you when on heavy snow/ice. My approach has been that (in my Land Rover) 20-30mph has been fine when well away from other vehicles or any pedestrians, but 10 probably nearer common-sense when there is something that could viably end up in my path even on the other side of the road.

Essentially you have to drive on snow and ice as if your brakes were completely non-functional (yes, I know you wouldn't actually drive were that actually the case). The bus was clearly not doing that - clearly a lot of skill was shown in the manoeuvre, but the manoeuvre should not have been necessary.

Just seen the lady bus driver from this bus in an interview on the lunchtime news. She said it felt slower. She didn't think a lot of it until someone later showed her the video from the news and she realised it was her driving.

She seems to be being hailed a hero for avoiding the car.

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

I think its not unreasonable for a reporter who is looking at a train with "SOUTH WEST TRAINS" displayed on every coach to refer to that company, after all 99% of the population could not care less who runs a particular train. If a franchise holder cannot change the name after 6 months it is hardly surprising.