Your views: should we have first class on trains at all?

[DarloRich]

I dislike how many people want to get rid of first class. Just because they cannot afford it, doesn’t mean other people who can should suffer.

I am afraid forum rules prevent me from replying to this in the manner I would want.

Nothing is free in first class, it has already been paid for in the price of the ticket.

I think 1st class should remain. Sometimes passengers want to pay a bit more for the additional comfort, or better ambience (often to do work), or even just for the guarantee of a seat. It’s also a good earner for train companies.

Hard to support that view when many people seem to be getting tickets for child/OAP rates or on their student railcard.

 

[Adsy125]

Hard to support that view when many people seem to be getting tickets for child/OAP rates or on their student railcard.

With a 16-25 Railcard you only get a discount on 1st advances sadly. It means the TOC has full control of how many seats they give to people travelling on discounted tickets.

 

[amcluesent]

What sort of time was that? As far as I can remember, that’s not much more than a season ticket for HUN-LDN.

It may well have been more, I stopped that job in 2012, so memory is fuzzy and I may have overestimated how much I paid for daily PBO parking on top as all up it around £11k.

I must have downed 100s of G&Ts on that route!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I am afraid forum rules prevent me from replying to this in the manner I would want.

What I am saying is… just because the majority of passengers are standard class passengers doesn’t mean they should come first. Quite the opposite.

 

[cjp]

If I could not have the ambiance or comfort of 1st class travel on the England - Scotland routes I would not use the train.
Except once when I had left it too late and paid full fare - a scary amount - I travel on Advances with a rail card discount.
Hurrah for the Chieftain although planes can be cheaper and quicker.

Oh I also use 1st class Sleeper accommodation as I am long past the age of wanting to share a compartment with a total stranger.

If the business case was not there I think the TOC would make adjustments.

 

[radamfi]

First Class is generally prohibitively expensive in Britain so I don't use it there. But in other rich countries it can be very affordable and is available on nearly all trains.

For example, in the Netherlands a 200 km trip costs 25 euro walk on off peak with a 50 euro a year railcard. A 30 km trip costs 10 euro peak and 6 off peak with a railcard.

 

[47271]

I run up vast mileages for work by rail every year. Standard Class in many train types makes it very difficult to function properly with laptop and papers over long distances and, if First provides an advantage over this then I'll use it. If it doesn't, or I'm on for less than 90 mins or so, then I go Standard. It's as simple as that and I would be very disappointed if First Class provision was removed from the East Coast, West Coast, Great Western, Transpennine or GWR. I'm not fussed about Scotrail or any of the London commuter TOCs, they could get rid of it as far as I'm concerned. Although Scotrail HSTs will perk things up north of the border.

Food and drink is a bonus which helps reduce my subsistence claims.

I should say however that I'm very careful not to put in eye catching claims for First Class travel. I'm fortunate in that I can plan a week or so ahead and use advances most of the time, so I'm probably not the TOCs' most lucrative regular business traveller.

 

[DarloRich]

I run up vast mileages for work by rail every year. Standard Class in many train types makes it very difficult to function properly with laptop and papers over long distances and, if First provides an advantage over this then I'll use it

yet i and many others run up vast mileages for work every year and manage perfectly well with a laptop in second class mainly as we have no choice but to do that - how can I manage that but you cant?

 

[yorkie]

is there? Is there a purpose and requirement? if so what is it?

Well, you said it two years ago:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/first-class-obsolete.135198/

There is a purpose to and requirement for FC..... It earns good monies for intercity TOCS.

Going back to this thread...

The purpose, to my mind, seems to be to allow people to not have to look upon the oiks as they travel in splendor supping their free teas and coffees, quaffing the free alcohol, munching on the free food and surfing the free internet while us mere plebs have to cram on next to the toilet breathing in anothers pooh fumes. It is said there are seats in standard class. Many of us never see them.

Or perhaps the purpose is to provide an environment in which people can work in? Or perhaps two people travelling together may want to pay a bit more so that they can have a table for two, sat opposite each other? Perhaps some people need extra leg room?

I'm sure I've seen photos taken by you in 1st class, so you could let us know what you were doing there; perhaps your use of 1st class matches the description you provided?

 

[radamfi]

Many if not most companies don't allow their employees to go full fare First Class travel except when the client is paying.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Well, you said it two years ago:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/first-class-obsolete.135198/

Going back to this thread...

Or perhaps the purpose is to provide an environment in which people can work in? Or perhaps two people travelling together may want to pay a bit more so that they can have a table for two, sat opposite each other? Perhaps some people need extra leg room?

I'm sure I've seen photos taken by you in 1st class, so you could let us know what you were doing there; perhaps your use of 1st class matches the description you provided?

And that, is exactly what I was getting at. (Perhaps I should have put it a bit more like that though)

 

[yorkie]

Many if not most companies don't allow their employees to go full fare First Class travel except when the client is paying.

Or when it's cheaper!

 

[BestWestern]

I dislike how many people want to get rid of first class. Just because they cannot afford it, doesn’t mean other people who can should suffer.

Ouch, what an attitude! Some of us are simply aware of the bigger picture, that the railway has massive capacity problems and FC isn't the best use of space.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Ouch, what an attitude! Some of us are simply aware of the bigger picture, that the railway has massive capacity problems and FC isn't the best use of space.

It is. At the end of the day if you complain about capacity, upgrade and you’ll get a seat. If you can’t afford it, stand.

 

[47271]

yet i and many others run up vast mileages for work every year and manage perfectly well with a laptop in second class mainly as we have no choice but to do that - how can I manage that but you cant?

It's nothing to do with me not managing. I can make a choice and prefer to be more comfortable and productive, reduce my subsistence claims, and my company agrees with me. What's wrong with that?

 

[DarloRich]

It's nothing to do with me not managing. I can make a choice and prefer to be more comfortable and productive, reduce my subsistence claims, and my company agrees with me. What's wrong with that?

How are you more productive in FC? Can you explain? I can work non stop from, say, York to Kings Cross in second. Are you not able to?

Or when it's cheaper!

we aren't allowed first class - even if it is cheaper

Well, you said it two years ago:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/first-class-obsolete.135198/

Going back to this thread...

Or perhaps the purpose is to provide an environment in which people can work in? Or perhaps two people travelling together may want to pay a bit more so that they can have a table for two, sat opposite each other? Perhaps some people need extra leg room?

I'm sure I've seen photos taken by you in 1st class, so you could let us know what you were doing there; perhaps your use of 1st class matches the description you provided?

The answer to my question to you is no, you don't seem to be able to offer any reasons. Why not try again?

I have used first class as a treat from time to time. It was nice, however for me ( unlike you and many others here) it was not the norm. I cant afford it, don't get a discount, don't have much flexibility and nor do i have an encyclopedic knowledge of the ticketing system and/or a friend in the ticket office. For most of us in the real world first class is a treat. I wish you and many other posters could grasp that very simple concept.

 

[radamfi]

Or when it's cheaper!

Is full fare First Class ever cheaper?

 

[SHD]

As far as I know, there are no sizeable railway operations in the world that do not offer at least two classes of accommodation on intercity or high-speed services. Of course there may be overlaps between commuter, regional, and intercity operations - meaning that in some cases intercity trains will be second class only (*) - but the principle is that trains offer two or more levels of comfort.

Heck, there were several classes of travel on SZD (although they were abolished after the Revolution, they were reinstated some time later).

On the anecdotical side, the Paris metro had first class coaches until 1991.

(*) I know that it is a Gallicism and that correct English parlance is “first” and “standard”. However imagining a second class only train has always struck me as funny: if there is only one class on the train, surely it is the “first” and not the “second”.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is full fare First Class ever cheaper?

No, but you do *occasionally* get a case where a First Advance is available but a Standard one is not, meaning if you don't need flexibility the Advance is cheaper. The VTWC 9 car Pendolinos were a good bet for these before one coach was converted to Standard. This is even more common if you're wanting a single at an off-peak time.

 

[yorkie]

How are you more productive in FC? Can you explain? I can work non stop from, say, York to Kings Cross in second. Are you not able to?

In a non-priority, non-table seat sat next to someone?

we aren't allowed first class - even if it is cheaper

People who work for the same organisation as you have informed me how it's wasteful in many ways so it doesn't surprise me that they have a policy of paying a higher price than necessary in some cases.

The answer to my question to you is no, you don't seem to be able to offer any reasons. Why not try again?

You are the one who said "There is a purpose to and requirement for FC ... It earns good monies for intercity TOC" ; I was just quoting you.

I have used first class as a treat from time to time. It was nice, however for me ( unlike you and many others here) it was not the norm.

So you don't have a bee in your bonnet about 1st class per se, you just don't like it if people use it too often?

I cant afford it, don't get a discount, don't have much flexibility and nor do i have an encyclopedic knowledge of the ticketing system and/or a friend in the ticket office.

It appears you are unhappy with the high price of tickets generally. You have benefited from the advice of people you appear to be belittling as having "encyclopedic knowledge". I understand you are unhappy that you don't qualify for PRIV. Yes it's unfair that anyone who started before 1996 gets PRIV and you don't but life isn't always fare and you your are not forced to remain in your current job. If you were that desperate for PRIV you could transfer to a TOC if you really wanted to.

I know you have often complained about not qualifying for a Railcard. I agree with your views on that. But you did qualify at one time, and you will do again in time.

For most of us in the real world first class is a treat. I wish you and many other posters could grasp that very simple concept.

I see it as a treat too. But admittedly due to my requirements to do a lot of journeys, it is a treat I experience on a monthly basis. I'm certainly not one of those people who travels exclusively in 1st class. I tend not to buy 1st class tickets unless it works out cheaper than the 'public' standard fare (and I would say that paying a £20 upgrade for the WAG Express is cheaper than the standard fare if you would otherwise be purchasing a meal priced at £20). But I can see the benefit of it. The railway would lose out to airlines if it was abolished on routes like Edinburgh to London.

Is full fare First Class ever cheaper?

Do you mean the full fare (ie. the Anytime fare)? Or do you simply mean non-discounted (ie. including Advances)?

If the latter, then it happens more often than you'd think!

 

[cuccir]

I agree with most of the others: it has its place on mainline intercity services, maybe some airport services too. We've had several anecdotes from people who wouldn't use rail if they couldn't use first class; so even if they're using discounted fares, they're still bringing in extra revenue. And discounted first class fares are more often than not still higher than equivalent in standard.

My experience of first class travel is very occasional: special offers, weekend first, once every couple of years at most.

 

[47271]

I'm more productive because my arms and legs can move freely. Okay, if you're sat at a table in VTEC Standard then I'd agree, but speaking as someone who tried to function in TPE 185 Standard airline seat for two hours I'd challenge you to explain why I wouldn't spend an extra £12 for an First Advance between Liverpool and York.

 

[DarloRich]

In a non-priority, non-table seat sat next to someone?

yes - every time i travel for work - it is the only way I can discharge my responsibilities. it might be emails via my phone or device or it might be working on my lap top. It might be reading papers. I have to use the journey to catch up.

People who work for the same organisation as you have informed me how it's wasteful in many ways so it doesn't surprise me that they have a policy of paying a higher price than necessary in some cases.

I wont comment on that in a public forum but some of the rules are unhelpful although they are required as many posters here would be quick to complain about public servants using first class travel regardless of the facts

You are the one who said "There is a purpose to and requirement for FC ... It earns good monies for intercity TOC" ; I was just quoting you.

Well considering the evidence of this forum I might change that view!

So you don't have a bee in your bonnet about 1st class per se, you just don't like it if people use it too often?

I would prefer people to be less smug about it and understand it is a privilege and treat and to acknowledge many of us are not as lucky as they are.

It appears you are unhappy with the high price of tickets generally. You have benefited from the advice of people you appear to be belittling as having "encyclopedic knowledge". I understand you are unhappy that you don't qualify for PRIV. Yes it's unfair that anyone who started before 1996 gets PRIV and you don't but life isn't always fare and you your are not forced to remain in your current job. If you were that desperate for PRIV you could transfer to a TOC if you really wanted to.

I know you have often complained about not qualifying for a Railcard. I agree with your views on that. But you did qualify at one time, and you will do again in time.

I am not greedy. I don't want free travel. I just want a discount on off peak travel ( the same as a student) in reward for working long hours trying to provide an infrastructure base the trains can run on. That would give me an large increase in my disposable income. Hopefully in about 35 years i might qualify for a railcard. Until then my first class journeys will be very limited.

I'm more productive because my arms and legs can move freely. Okay, if you're sat at a table in VTEC Standard then I'd agree, but speaking as someone who tried to function in TPE 185 Standard airline seat for two hours I'd challenge you to explain why I wouldn't spend an extra £12 for an First Advance between Liverpool and York.

It is lucky you are able to afford/ allowed to pay for the upgrade. If you are able to then crack on but lets not pretned the only place you can work is first class. Many of us are not able to use FC and have to manage, somehow, with our arms and legs bound in a second class seat. BTW - I regularly use TPE between York & Manchester and seem to be able to work despite the constraints.

 

[theblackwatch]

The OP comes across as very bitter. Just because he is unable or unwilling to book well in advance to secure a deal, others shouldn't be allowed to either. I personally find that to book standard class at a reasonable price often requires a commitment in order to obtain a sensibly priced ticket - I've got a ticket booked for May (not FC!) that has cost me £30.50. If I were to book that same ticket for this coming weekend tonight, it would cost me £70.20 (advance, train specific), or £108.70 'walk on'. I'll go FC if I think it's a reasonable deal and want the extra comfort - personal choice, in the same way some will choose to have a flash car (tho some may not have the luxury of being able to afford one though).

 

[radamfi]

I personally find that to book standard class at a reasonable price often requires a commitment in order to obtain a sensibly priced ticket

But that shouldn't be necessary. Where's the logic in having Anytime, Off-Peak and Advance Standard Class fares, but only Anytime and Advance First Class fares. No Off-Peak First Class. As explained earlier, in other countries walk on First Class fares are available at reasonable rates.

 

[pacenotes]

I use it for any intercity service I use. I have a friend who will buy a walk up FC to Manchester and another who has a FC season ticket Woking to Waterloo.

How many seats are we talking about on a Virgin train per carriage? about 11 people! They can easily get the cost of 11 people back. I have never seen a carriage empty. The demand is there.

 

[theblackwatch]

But that shouldn't be necessary. Where's the logic in having Anytime, Off-Peak and Advance Standard Class fares, but only Anytime and Advance First Class fares. No Off-Peak First Class. As explained earlier, in other countries walk on First Class fares are available at reasonable rates.

You're right, it shouldn't be necessary, because, according to the OP, we shouldn't have First Class. While there may be a few countries that have reasonable walk on FC fares, it's hardly the norm. For example, looking at booking a Paris-Marseille FC ticket for tomorrow, I can buy a train specific AP for £79.50, or a 'most flexible' one for £145.50. Bargain!

 

[IanXC]

But that shouldn't be necessary. Where's the logic in having Anytime, Off-Peak and Advance Standard Class fares, but only Anytime and Advance First Class fares. No Off-Peak First Class. As explained earlier, in other countries walk on First Class fares are available at reasonable rates.

There are plenty of flows that do have Off Peak First Class fares.

 

[Starmill]

it might be emails via my phone or device or it might be working on my lap top. It might be reading papers. I have to use the journey to catch up.

The last time I travelled by train on work time I didn't get a table seat, the train did not have standard class sockets and there was no wifi. The train was full too with many people standing for more than two hours. I did get some work done on my phone and the battery pack I brought using my 3G data as and when available (sometimes, inevitably, there was no signal), but I wonder if you would have managed to do what you needed to under those circumstances.

 

[radamfi]

You're right, it shouldn't be necessary, because, according to the OP, we shouldn't have First Class. While there may be a few countries that have reasonable walk on FC fares, it's hardly the norm. For example, looking at booking a Paris-Marseille FC ticket for tomorrow, I can buy a train specific AP for £79.50, or a 'most flexible' one for £145.50. Bargain!

That's a TGV service on high-speed lines for about 800 km! Even in Switzerland, which people usually quote as having extortionate train fares, Zurich to Geneva, similar distance to London to Manchester, costs 78 CHF 1st class with a Half Fare card, even in peak hours.