Could First Class only trains work in the UK?

[LNW-GW Joint]

BA runs a Business Class only service from London City to JFK, on an Airbus 318 with 32 seats (calls at Dublin on the way out, to refuel/clear US immigration).
But it's rather a niche flight, just one each way I think.
Concorde had a market for supersonic class and the super-rich.
Most airline First Class passengers command a lavish lifestyle and will demand services the railway isn't in the habit of providing - eg limo transfers at each end.
No chance on classic lines, but possible on HS2 maybe, as an Open Access service once a day.
But do you need fancy catering/pampering for a trip of around an hour?

It's certainly true that airlines increasingly make their money from business class, while economy gets ever more cramped with downgraded service.
In fact, BA and others are deliberately reconfiguring their planes for more business class and fewer economy seats.

 

[DanNCL]

Personally I don't think first class only trains are a good idea, partly because it wouldn't be an efficient use of paths but mainly because the gap in society between wealthier people and poorer people is already too big, and having first class only trains may make that problem worse. Something similar to Gran Class on the E5 Shinkansens would be a good idea I think though, provided it was restricted to no more than one carriage of this new premium class per train.

 

[class387]

What about late evening/before morning rush?

You would probably have wealthy business travellers as your main market, who would want to travel at the most convenient (peak) times.

 

[ainsworth74]

Perhaps having a small section of 'ultra-luxury' seats on some trains would work. The new Chinese high-speed train has 'Business Class' in the otherwise wasted space of the nose and is very nice

I must admit that was what I had in mind as something that could work. A small section like that in your image I could see working. A bit similar to the couple of compartments that DB ICE3s have in first class.

 

[centraltrains]

You would probably have wealthy business travellers as your main market, who would want to travel at the most convenient (peak) times.

Some people have late night parties though? Gotta be at least 29 rich people on a Friday night!!

 

[6Gman]

What if it ran only one or two times per day then?

Problem then is what if your business meeting over-runs (or finishes early) or your connecting train is late or whatever?

You've paid for a premium product only to see its tail lights disappearing, or waiting two hours for it to run ...

 

[HainultLoop]

Some people have late night parties though? Gotta be at least 29 rich people on a Friday night!!

Drunk rich people on a train...I shudder to think what would happen

 

[hexagon789]

Drunk rich people on a train...I shudder to think what would happen

Me too!

 

[class387]

Some people have late night parties though? Gotta be at least 29 rich people on a Friday night!!

Not sure the operator would appreciate having those customers on the train, or that the passengers would be sober enough to care .

Also, for the London to Scotland journeys mentioned, leaving at those times (after 8pm), the Caledonian Sleeper is likely to be more comfortable no matter how luxurious it is.

 

[driver_m]

I can think of a few companies that would have probably wanted a 3 class train which would be more do-able with the sort of thing shown by the OP but I'm not even sure if it's allowed on British Railways. It would be nice to go back pass in a premium first coach but I can just imagine the horrified faces pulled if either one of our scruffier brethren plonking their backside down in it or some leathered football fans telling jolly japes about their rival fans.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Not sure the operator would appreciate having those customers on the train, or that the passengers would be sober enough to care .

Also, for the London to Scotland journeys mentioned, leaving at those times (after 8pm), the Caledonian Sleeper is likely to be more comfortable no matter how luxurious it is.

I beg to differ. The new Emirates Suites have fully flat bed service.

 

[Polarbear]

On today's railway, I doubt there would be the capacity to run a bespoke 1st class service. In the days of the Blue Pullman, and the later Manchester Pullman, there were only two return runs on weekdays (albeit the former also did a fill in turn for a while).

I would though like to see a better first class offering on the long distance services - maybe something along the lines of OBB's Railjet which has a business class available for a supplement above the first class fare, a 'normal' first class (more space/legroom but no inclusive offer).

 

[Bald Rick]

Some quick back of envelope assumptions and calculations suggest one way fares would need to average around £500 to make this viable (assuming each train can do 2-3 single trips a day). I doubt there are sufficient people doing the trip who would be willing to pay that price given the alternative options.

 

[centraltrains]

Drunk rich people on a train...I shudder to think what would happen

But if you managed to get a ticket for it...

 

[deltic]

As fewer and fewer businesses now allow staff to travel first class there would not be the underlying demand that existed in the days of the Manchester Pullman - also the high frequency of services nowadays means people paying the sort of fares required to justify it wont want to hang around waiting for their once a day premium service. There are a number of first-class leisure services operating on the network eg Belmond British Pulman

 

[ainsworth74]

Drunk rich people on a train...I shudder to think what would happen

That was the Brighton Belle wasn't it?

Definitely some passengers worse for wear there on arrival at Brighton!!

 

[DarloRich]

Now don’t dismiss this or wrongly admonish this as a fantasy thread. It isn’t. This is a serious question. would first class only trains work in the UK?

A fantasy thread is exactly what this is. Of course there is no physical reason why this could not be done. Practicality is another question! I can feel the stirrings of the The Internationale just by looking at this........................

 

[class387]

I beg to differ. The new Emirates Suites have fully flat bed service.

So does the Chinese one and there are no overnight journeys on that either. Also a bed with a mattress will always be better than a seat that reclines flat.

The other point is that one of the main attractions of the first class only train and plane cabins is the service, which is less attractive on a overnight journey where you would just sleep.

 

[3141]

Well there is a precedent of course - The Midland Pullman was first class only, but your fare did not include any food or drins whatsoever. The Manchester Pullman until the Mk2 Pullmans were replaced by Mk3 stock.

When the Midland Pullman was introduced it was a faster train than anything else operating between London and Manchester. So people were getting something for their money that they couldn't get elsewhere. Today, it would be difficult to find a long-distance route on which a first class only train could also offer a substantial saving in time. Plus, as others have said, there is today the problem of pressure on train paths and it's unlikely a first class only train could justify the space it takes up at the expense of large numbers of other would-be passengers.

But a marketing analysis might show a demand on HS2 for some peak hour services with a high proportion of first class accommodation.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

So does the Chinese one and there are no overnight journeys on that either. Also a bed with a mattress will always be better than a seat that reclines flat.

Yeah but to be fair that Chinese one looks nowhere near as nice.

 

[Emmsie]

That was the Brighton Belle wasn't it?

Definitely some passengers worse for wear there on arrival at Brighton!!

I could see a market for the Brighton Belle running on a Friday evening as a champagne/cocktail journey. Down to Brighton at 6ish back up to London and then back to Brighton at 11.30pm, I'd happily sttart my weekend that way

 

[xotGD]

Some airlines have tried (and failed) with an all 'budget' Business Class offering. Perhaps this might work on the railways - as was suggested up-thread 2+2 seating but with the spacing and table provision of First Class. Throw in some free refreshments and good free wifi and charge 20% more than a full price standard class ticket and this 'Executive Class' may have a chance.

You could call the operation 'Executive Rail' and either bid for open access paths or rent space on existing operators' trains, reconfigured to Executive Class standards.

 

[pt_mad]

First Class Only is a non-starter if only for political reasons.

More product differentiation may not be a bad idea, but would require at least partial fares deregulation, which on this forum is also a non-starter with some predictable replies I can almost envisage.

First priority on many routes however must remain capacity provision.

Agreed. Would be deemed too contravertial using public service infrastructure to allow exclusive cabin style super rich trains to run up and down for the enjoyment of the privileged few.

Completly the opposite to the mood of the nation at the present time and would be jumped all over if such a thing were to be granted.

 

[cf111]

BA runs a Business Class only service from London City to JFK, on an Airbus 319 with 32 seats (calls at Dublin on the way out, to refuel/clear US immigration).
But it's rather a niche flight, just one each way I think.
Concorde had a market for supersonic class and the super-rich.
Most airline First Class passengers command a lavish lifestyle and will demand services the railway isn't in the habit of providing - eg limo transfers at each end.
No chance on classic lines, but possible on HS2 maybe, as an Open Access service once a day.
But do you need fancy catering/pampering for a trip of around an hour?

It's certainly true that airlines increasingly make their money from business class, while economy gets ever more cramped with downgraded service.
In fact, BA and others are deliberately reconfiguring their planes for more business class and fewer economy seats.

BA1/2 use a wee A318 and the outbound leg is via Shannon rather than Dublin.

It's a nice flight but I think passenger numbers are very, very low now because the market the flight is geared towards (rich banks who need staff from office to office without wasting any time at airports) has shrunk a great deal. BA used to have two A318s with two rotations a day but now they only have the one.

 

[dcsprior]

I must say I'm surprised that something along these lines hasn't been done with the sleeper.

One reason the sleeper (and therefore the only train service to get you from central Scotland to London by 9am like planes often can) is so expensive is that the number of people carried per train is so low; I'd guess that significantly more people would fit per carriage in seats that can convert to a flat bed like a long-haul business-class seat on a plane.

Edit to add:

I used to be a regular on the 05:40 Edinburgh-London "Flying Scotsman", travelling almost every Tuesday morning. Leaving Edinburgh, the majority of passengers were seated in 1st Class (thanks partly to EC's keen pricing of 1st, but probably more due to their ingenuity in creating a ticket type that showed as Std Class on corporate booking systems, but included a free upgrade to first) - indeed once the guard remarked that I was the only passenger in all of Std Class.

So this would seem like a service that could perhaps support a 1st-only train, but the reality is that the people boarding at Newcastle reversed the balance of 1sttd, so unless the hypothetical train wasn't going to stop at all (and would therefore be a big waste of capacity), it wouldn't.

So I don't see this working other than the "sleeper-minus" solution I mention above

 

[swt_passenger]

HS2, when it launches, likely will serve a "premium" option meaning First Class on HS2 could be pretty luxurious on a Emirates level (probably not, more like Deutsche Bahn ICE I think) with normal trains (whichever TOC wins West Coast franchise and LNR) running on the ICWC line offering standard or basic option.

The ICEC in the future could also be upgraded to High Speed or a new line built nearby may see premium trains too...

There’s no evidence whatsoever for HS2 being some sort of premium service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I must say I'm surprised that something along these lines hasn't been done with the sleeper.

One reason the sleeper (and therefore the only train service to get you from central Scotland to London by 9am like planes often can) is so expensive is that the number of people carried per train is so low; I'd guess that significantly more people would fit per carriage in seats that can convert to a flat bed like a long-haul business-class seat on a plane.

They investigated it as an intermediate class between sleeper and seat, but there were issues getting the safety side of things signed off so it was dropped. Plenty of threads on it. Really sad in my view as I think it would have been very popular.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There’s no evidence whatsoever for HS2 being some sort of premium service.

And the DB ICE is hardly a luxury train. It's nice with a very tasteful interior design, but it's a normal level of nice, if you see what I mean.

 

[gsnedders]

Trenitalia now have four classes on their ETR 400s, with 10 Executive, 69 Business, 76 Premium, and 300 Standard seats.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Trenitalia now have four classes on their ETR 400s, with 10 Executive, 69 Business, 76 Premium, and 300 Standard seats.

Exactly. A carriage with three Emirates style first class suites wouldn’t go completely amiss!