Could First Class only trains work in the UK?

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Now don’t dismiss this or wrongly admonish this as a fantasy thread. It isn’t. This is a serious question. would first class only trains work in the UK?

Or indeed ones with more luxury?

For example. Take this awesome little thing:


Image shows: Emirates Private suite. Massive reclining seat and huge TV and table. Private mini-bar, snack basket, numerous trinkets such as shelves, mirror and iPad. Not to mention five course dinner menu

You could fit three of these Emirates First Class suites fairly comfortably into a standard length 23m carriage. Just about wide enough too. It costs thousands of pounds to travel like this today and surely an open access train company would earn revenue with say, a 125mph electric train, with eleven carriages (front and rear containing kitchens), and comprising of 29 suites. Luxury for less.

Perhaps at £200 average price. Running, say - London to Glasgow calling at Edinburgh only (set down only). Proper meals like on the Arriva service. Not just complementary but INCLUDED in the price.

And then train companies like VTEC could focus more on Standard class, while First class passengers can be assured they will get what they pay for. The proper experience.

Just a thought. Not a fantasy as I said. I’d love to know your opinions as to whether this would work or not.

 

[ainsworth74]

Perhaps at £200 average price. Running, say - London to Glasgow calling at Edinburgh only (set down only).

Seeing as the VTEC Only 1st class single on that route is £243 (a return being £486) I think you may need to review your pricing structure!

 

[SPADTrap]

Definitely a fantasy

 

[Domh245]

I would think the biggest stumbling block would be getting ORR approval for paths. Unless you're running your train between British Steel Redcar and Teeside Airport, I think the ORR would take a very dim view of running a train with a maximum capacity of 29 (Compared to a seated capacity of 589 on an 11 car Pendolino). You'd have great difficulty running anything into/out of London terminals if nothing else as there isn't the spare capacity to waste on such a train.

 

[class387]

First Class only: Definitely not. Waste of paths.

More luxury: Definitely. Passengers will choose to travel on trains that are more comfortable, hence Chiltern's entire business model.

 

[Failed Unit]

First class only maybe not. But a comfortable seat maybe.

I standard only train, with decent pitch and padding could very easily compete against less comfortable rivals.

 

[Minilad]

And people argue Heathrow Express is a waste of valuable paths

 

[HainultLoop]

This sort of 'Pullman Plus' First Class Only service would take up paths that could otherwise be filled with a normal service, leading to lack of capacity on the railway. Might work as a revenue earner serving the super rich but it would just mean a lack of quality service for the rest of us 'normal folk', with more overcrowding due to less paths and TOCs directing funds into these overpriced luxuries.

With super luxury on one end and normal standard on the other, where would normal first go? Become 'Business'?

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Royal Scotsman train is a fairly luxurious outfit.

 

[hexagon789]

Well there is a precedent of course - The Midland Pullman was first class only, but your fare did not include any food or drins whatsoever. The Manchester Pullman until the Mk2 Pullmans were replaced by Mk3 stock.

In this day and age though, I don't thin there is the demand, capacity nor paths to accomodate such a service. Many operators have done away with/are doing away with First Class, so I'm not convinced it's wir the it in all honesty.

Don't get me wrong it's a nice idea, but I don't think it's practical on today's network. Perhaps improving the quality of existing First Class offerings would be a better idea?☺

 

[Bletchleyite]

First class only maybe not. But a comfortable seat maybe.

I standard only train, with decent pitch and padding could very easily compete against less comfortable rivals.

That's roughly what Chiltern do (give or take my dislike for IC70 seats which is probably not shared by smaller people! )

The First East Coast service is also to be Standard only.

TBH, I think this has more of a future than actual First Class, the traditional market for which (businesses) is dying off. It might I suppose survive as a self-upgraded product - say using a Weekend First type pricing scale all week but with more seats put in and freebies quite basic - but the First Anytime Return is not going to be something bought very often in future I would think.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With super luxury on one end and normal standard on the other, where would normal first go? Become 'Business'?

There is possibly more of an argument for a "middle class" that would be 2+2 but at First Class spacing with decent tables for working on a laptop. At a much reduced upgrade price over Standard than First is.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

HS2, when it launches, likely will serve a "premium" option meaning First Class on HS2 could be pretty luxurious on a Emirates level (probably not, more like Deutsche Bahn ICE I think) with normal trains (whichever TOC wins West Coast franchise and LNR) running on the ICWC line offering standard or basic option.

The ICEC in the future could also be upgraded to High Speed or a new line built nearby may see premium trains too...

 

[hexagon789]

There is possibly more of an argument for a "middle class" that would be 2+2 but at First Class spacing with decent tables for working on a laptop. At a much reduced upgrade price over Standard than First is.

Maybe a reversion to the orginally planned Virgin Voyager 3-class structure?

(2+3 in Standard, maybe not!)

 

[ainsworth74]

Well there is a precedent of course - The Midland Pullman was first class only, but your fare did not include any food or drins whatsoever. The Manchester Pullman until the Mk2 Pullmans were replaced by Mk3 stock.

Midland Blue Pullmans were also First Class only I believe (Western Region were First and Standard).

In this day and age though, I don't thin there is the demand, capacity nor paths to accomodate such a service. Many operators have done away with/are doing away with First Class, so I'm not convinced it's wir the it in all honesty.

But yes I would tend to agree with this. I'm sure there is demand for a higher quality service but I doubt it's in anything like the numbers to make such a service worthwhile from a holistic view point. I think all of the (few remaining) Pullman's that BR ran by the end were mixed class. The only difference was usually there was a higher amount of first class than normal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe a reversion to the orginally planned Virgin Voyager 3-class structure?

(2+3 in Standard, maybe not!)

No, but the "pseudo-First" in the VT Voyagers (before they changed the covers to look like regular Standard, though the layout remains) probably would be a reasonable example of what it might look like, even if it was never actually used as such.

 

[bb21]

First Class Only is a non-starter if only for political reasons.

More product differentiation may not be a bad idea, but would require at least partial fares deregulation, which on this forum is also a non-starter with some predictable replies I can almost envisage.

First priority on many routes however must remain capacity provision.

 

[route:oxford]

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

These cabins are 3.72 square metres (40sq foot). Which is around 1.9 by 1.9 square.

So you could get around 10 Premiere class cabins in a Mk3.

Of course, if you were going to develop that, you would acquire a Mk3 Sleeper and rebuild it into an HST trailer with 12 individual premier seated cabins with either one or two seats per cabin. By retaining the 12 cabin arrangement, there would be no issues with the stuctural integrity.

Then simply lease a space on an HST diagram when wealthy people want to hire some private space.

 

[hexagon789]

Midland Blue Pullmans were also First Class only I believe (Western Region were First and Standard).


But yes I would tend to agree with this. I'm sure there is demand for a higher quality service but I doubt it's in anything like the numbers to make such a service worthwhile from a holistic view point. I think all of the (few remaining) Pullman's that BR ran by the end were mixed class. The only difference was usually there was a higher amount of first class than normal.

Yes, the Western Blue Pullmans were 8-coaches instead of 6 of the Midland service and had First and Second Class accommdation.

The later BR-era Pullman services generally simply had an extra one or two First Class vehicles. The InterCity 225 'Pullman' sets had an extra Pullman Open (PO) at the expense of a TO (Tourist Open).

 

[AlterEgo]

Now don’t dismiss this or wrongly admonish this as a fantasy thread. It isn’t. This is a serious question. would first class only trains work in the UK?

Or indeed ones with more luxury?

For example. Take this awesome little thing:

View attachment 43275

You could fit three of these Emirates First Class suites fairly comfortably into a standard length 23m carriage. Just about wide enough too. It costs thousands of pounds to travel like this today and surely an open access train company would earn revenue with say, a 125mph electric train, with eleven carriages (front and rear containing kitchens), and comprising of 29 suites. Luxury for less.

Perhaps at £200 average price. Running, say - London to Glasgow calling at Edinburgh only (set down only). Proper meals like on the Arriva service. Not just complementary but INCLUDED in the price.

And then train companies like VTEC could focus more on Standard class, while First class passengers can be assured they will get what they pay for. The proper experience.

Just a thought. Not a fantasy as I said. I’d love to know your opinions as to whether this would work or not.

29 x 200 = £5,800.

How do you think the maths stack up?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Fair enough

 

[jfollows]

I would use and pay for a 100mph more comfortable First Class service with better food, yes, and it's conceivable on a post-HS2 WCML I suggest. However I'm no longer as sensitive to time as I was, and I can afford it. However I'd be talking about one or two return journeys Wilmslow-London a year I suggest. I don't think there would be enough like me to generate sufficient demand, because the majority of business travel would require speed (in the morning) and frequency (in the afternoon/evening). I went on the all-first Manchester Pullman only once, with the guard in the brake van; my dad used it for business occasionally and had previously used the Midland Pullman from Cheadle Heath.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What if it ran only one or two times per day then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd similarly use LNR First Class for self-paid long distance journeys if they'd just take out the fourth seat across! For me a single seat is the big selling point.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'd similarly use LNR First Class for self-paid long distance journeys if they'd just take out the fourth seat across! For me a single seat is the big selling point.

There is 2x1 seating in some LNR First Class carriages.

 

[hexagon789]

There is 2x1 seating in some LNR First Class carriages.

Not that it's anything to write home about mind you

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is 2x1 seating in some LNR First Class carriages.

Only the 319s, which are not used on long-distance runs. If I commuted on one of those trains from further south I might well go for it, though, it is quite nice for a 1980s commuter train.

 

[class387]

What if it ran only one or two times per day then?

Still wastes paths, unless at very quiet times where there would be no patronage anyway, and still not politically acceptable.

Perhaps having a small section of 'ultra-luxury' seats on some trains would work. The new Chinese high-speed train has 'Business Class' in the otherwise wasted space of the nose and is very nice (I've been on it ):

 

[STKKK46]

You’d be looking at a damn sight more than £200 per person. Wouldn’t want to begin to speculate on how much more. Also, I can imagine that would include a complete lack of discounts for children and railcard holders. People that want comfort like this should be able to find suitable journeys in the air. If this comfort isn’t offered on those journeys (London to Glasgow/Edinburgh - I don’t know if available or not), then at least these travellers can make it to their destination in a decent amount of time without sitting in passing loops up and down the country.

Im afraid wether you say it it is a fantasy thread or not.... it is.

 

[centraltrains]

I would think the biggest stumbling block would be getting ORR approval for paths. Unless you're running your train between British Steel Redcar and Teeside Airport, I think the ORR would take a very dim view of running a train with a maximum capacity of 29 (Compared to a seated capacity of 589 on an 11 car Pendolino). You'd have great difficulty running anything into/out of London terminals if nothing else as there isn't the spare capacity to waste on such a train.

What about late evening/before morning rush?