Electrifcation - it's on!

[tbtc]

I've heard DfT are looking at the possibility of life extending the HSTs to 2030

If they don't start putting up wires in Yorkshire/ Lancashire faster then we'll still have Pacers in 2030!
:cry:
(since there's only so many 165/166s displaced by the GWML electrification, of which Chiltern may take a few...)

 

[scandal]

I suspect the loading gauge is more the issue, remember Turbos can only be used in the GW zones and Chilterns.

 

[Merseyrail]

Does anyone have any idea what stock will be used on the Liverpool to Manchester route after electrification?

Will it be brand new trains or cascaded 319's, which seems to be a common rumour? Surely new trains would look better publicity wise at the grand opening?

Also what plans are there to electrify the Huyton to Wigan / Preston section?

 

[tbtc]

Surely new trains would look better publicity wise at the grand opening?

I wouldn't be surprised if ex London commuter stock is moved north - that's what happened with the Airedale/ Wharfdale lines

To be fair, EMUs don't "age" as badly as DMUs, given the mechanics - 319s with a little refurb will probably be better than younger DMUs

 

[ukrob]

Does anyone have any idea what stock will be used on the Liverpool to Manchester route after electrification?

Will it be brand new trains or cascaded 319's, which seems to be a common rumour? Surely new trains would look better publicity wise at the grand opening?

Also what plans are there to electrify the Huyton to Wigan / Preston section?

I don't think it was ever a rumour. Fully refurnished 319s which will include air conditioning.

Huyton to Wigan is under consideration but would be a logical move.

 

[Waverley125]

tbtc-A&W lines did get displaced EMUs from the essex/east anglia lines at first, but got new 333s in 2001-2, which were lengthened to 4 cars shortly afterwards (so they're basically indestenguishable, outside, from the 332s on HEx services).

 

[tbtc]

tbtc-A&W lines did get displaced EMUs from the essex/east anglia lines at first, but got new 333s in 2001-2, which were lengthened to 4 cars shortly afterwards (so they're basically indestenguishable, outside, from the 332s on HEx services).

Yeah, they got decent units in the end, but at the time the Airedale/ Wharfdale got EMUs that were older than the replaced DMUs. I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar here - give the electrification a few years to bed in before you can tell whether brand new EMUs are justified or not

A four car 319 (etc) would still be better than a shorter Pacer/ Sprinter for the local journeys

Then again, with the prospect of lots of 323s from LM, and little scope to run more EMUs at the moment, maybe Northern will just use these

 

[Waverley125]

i like the 323s, for older units they feel quite new, especially LM's refurbed ones.

 

[87015]

Yeah, they got decent units in the end, but at the time the Airedale/ Wharfdale got EMUs that were older than the replaced DMUs. I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar here - give the electrification a few years to bed in before you can tell whether brand new EMUs are justified or not

Hardly a 'northern thing' though - most 1980s/1990s electrifications received second hand EMUs which weren't occasional much of an improvement on what went before them. 305/308s/310s on Liverpool St-Cambridge's, 304/308s on Birmingham CrossCity come to mind. Makes the sums add up better, unless you want to write another cheque out on top of electrification works.

 

[tbtc]

I've not done the maths, but would be interested to know if the ones from LM would be enough to convert the Manchester Victoria - Eccles - Liverpool, the Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay and the Manchester Airport - Liverpool services?

There's not much scope to use them on other Greater Manchester routes (given the lack of paths caused by VHF etc)

(the only three services that could convert from diesel to electric under the current plans and current timetables)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hardly a 'northern thing' though - most 1980s/1990s electrifications received second hand EMUs which weren't occasional much of an improvement on what went before them. 305/308s/310s on Liverpool St-Cambridge's, 304/308s on Birmingham CrossCity come to mind. Makes the sums add up better, unless you want to write another cheque out on top of electrification works.

Sorry, I'm not suggesting it's exclusively "Northern" - I can see the logic in using cascaded units, it keeps things cheaper in the short term (after the expense of wiring etc) and it gives time to see whether three/four coach EMUs are needed in the longer term (before ordering them).

TBH I'd suggest the same thing if the Cardiff Valley lines are ever wired up, or the Merseyrail extensions etc. I'd take any old EMU over a Pacer round these parts!

 

[87015]

I've not done the maths, but would be interested to know if the ones from LM would be enough to convert the Manchester Victoria - Eccles - Liverpool, the Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay and the Manchester Airport - Liverpool services?

There's not much scope to use them on other Greater Manchester routes (given the lack of paths caused by VHF etc)

Sorry, I'm not suggesting it's exclusively "Northern" - I can see the logic in using cascaded units, it keeps things cheaper in the short term (after the expense of wiring etc) and it gives time to see whether three/four coach EMUs are needed in the longer term (before ordering them).

TBH I'd suggest the same thing if the Cardiff Valley lines are ever wired up, or the Merseyrail extensions etc. I'd take any old EMU over a Pacer round these parts!

I'd have thought the 20odd LM 323s could cover those services, at least at face value, although I don't know how many are earmarked for strengthened/extra services on existing 323 routes.

 

[Daimler]

The IEP is the best of both world - it has all the advantages of an EMU on electrified tracks, but you can plug a loco on the end when needed. (I'm not suggesting doing that in service, but if we found we had a surplus of diesel stock they could easily be converted to electric).

I think you need to look at Roger Ford's 'Informed Sources' articles on the bi-mode SET in Modern Railways magazine. It's rubbish, and simply not up to the job.

 

[EWS 58038]

The best way to enhance capacity is to lengthen trains, rather than seriously compromise passenger comfort, as we've seen with the diabolical HSTs on the western region.

WRONG....

The best way to increase capacity is not to make just longer trains, but to implement a good hourly based timetable which repeats itself every hour, combined with high capacity units while still having good comfort to passengers...

Something like the 4 and 6 coach VIRM which have 45% more capacity then a single deck EMU.

 

[Daimler]

I don't think it was ever a rumour. Fully refurnished 319s which will include air conditioning.
Huyton to Wigan is under consideration but would be a logical move.

Unlikely I'm afraid - from what I've heard, fitting A/C to trains without plug-doors is very hard - hence why it's not been done anywhere yet. And redesigning them to accomodate plug-doors would mean an entire rebuild of the coach bodies, I should think.

 

[EWS 58038]

I think you need to look at Roger Ford's 'Informed Sources' articles on the bi-mode SET in Modern Railways magazine. It's rubbish, and simply not up to the job.

I second that Daimler. It is even so heavy that on the Stoke summit, and at departures of almost every station the Diesel moter must run at full to even match the acceleration speed of a class 91.

Although the IEP will be a reliable train as it is been build by Hitachi... the "green" aspect of this train is just a political excuse to introduce it, as I am sure it will NOT consume less power.

 

[Mojo]

378s don't have plug doors and are to have air-conditioning though. The DfT report mentions: "it will then be possible to transfer the current Thameslink four-carriage electric trains onto the Great Western Main Line, replacing the current three-carriage diesel trains. These 100 mph vehicles will be completely modernised, including the installation of air-conditioning, and will offer quieter journeys and additional capacity. It is planned that suburban services between Oxford, Reading and London will be operated with such vehicles from the end of 2016." Turbos to be sent to Bristol and elsewhere in SW to replace other DMUs to be sent to the North.

 

[Daimler]

378s don't have plug doors and are to have air-conditioning though. The DfT report mentions: "it will then be possible to transfer the current Thameslink four-carriage electric trains onto the Great Western Main Line, replacing the current three-carriage diesel trains. These 100 mph vehicles will be completely modernised, including the installation of air-conditioning, and will offer quieter journeys and additional capacity. It is planned that suburban services between Oxford, Reading and London will be operated with such vehicles from the end of 2016." Turbos to be sent to Bristol and elsewhere in SW to replace other DMUs to be sent to the North.

While they aren't plug doors, I would bet (but can't confirm!) that they do offer a 'sealed' compartment, unlike the doors on a 319/321.

Maybe I'm off the mark, but I've always heard that fitting A/C to units with doors such as those on 319s/321s is not easy.

 

[87015]

Unlikely I'm afraid - from what I've heard, fitting A/C to trains without plug-doors is very hard - hence why it's not been done anywhere yet. And redesigning them to accomodate plug-doors would mean an entire rebuild of the coach bodies, I should think.

Can be done, 321425 was A/C fitted as a trial a (fair) few years back. Worked reasonably well under testing AFAIK but didn't make the Silverlink 321 "refurb" but the spec for that was very very light. As part of a full refurb it should bring such units up to modern standards.

 

[ukrob]

I don't think it was ever a rumour. Fully refurnished 319s which will include air conditioning.

Huyton to Wigan is under consideration but would be a logical move.

Unlikely I'm afraid - from what I've heard, fitting A/C to trains without plug-doors is very hard - hence why it's not been done anywhere yet. And redesigning them to accomodate plug-doors would mean an entire rebuild of the coach bodies, I should think.

I of course meant refurbished lol.

And as others have pointed out, it is possible, and it is the plan as outlined with the announcement last week.

 

[Merseyrail]

Would the refurbishment of the 319's be likely to include on board toilets? Would seem a slighly backwards step if not as even the Pacers have toilets.

 

[Mojo]

Would the refurbishment of the 319s be likely to include on board toilets? Would seem a slighly backwards step if not as even the Pacers have toilets.

I'm pretty sure they already have toilets?

 

[ukrob]

Would the refurbishment of the 319's be likely to include on board toilets? Would seem a slighly backwards step if not as even the Pacers have toilets.

They have toilets anyway (two per set I think) - are you mixing up the 319s with something else?

 

[Merseyrail]

They have toilets anyway (two per set I think) - are you mixing up the 319s with something else?

I've never actually been on one before, altough that will change next month as I'm taking my son down to London for a few days and will be staying in Borehamwood.

I was just reading from here. It says that only the 319/2's have toilets - which are currently out of service:

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/Main.php?iCmsPageId=90

Or does "Accessible toilet" just refer to disabled toilets?

 

[ukrob]

I've never actually been on one before, altough that will change next month as I'm taking my son down to London for a few days and will be staying in Borehamwood.

I was just reading from here. It says that only the 319/2's have toilets - which are currently out of service:

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/Main.php?iCmsPageId=90

It just says no accessible toilets - meaning no disabled toilets

 

[Mojo]

I'd be interested to hear about the plans for the Thames Branches. DMUs are going to be required for Reading - Gatwick, Reading - Basingstoke, north of Oxford and west of Newbury (although the latter two could be provided by stops/additional long-distance services), so keeping hold of extra DMUs wouldn't be too much of a problem, except for the direct trains to/from Paddington (1 train per weekday Bourne End - Paddington; 2/3 trains per weekday Henley - Bourne End) but of which there are so few would probably not be too hard to curtail at Twyford/Maidenhead. AIUI there is also a separate plan as part of Crossrail to terminate Greenford trains at West Ealing. On the other hand I expect that electrification of Marlow/Bourne End and Henley branches could be done quite cheaply as part of the total project.

 

[The Planner]

Greenfords will terminate in a new bay at West Ealing, so the Chiltern route knowledge trains will stop.

 

[tbtc]

Reading - Basingstoke

It's a shame that can't be third railed, that'd allow Brighton/ Portsmouth etc a through link to Reading, giving a connection with Birmingham/ Manchester etc (since they are no longer on Cross Country)

 

[The Planner]

Would do nothing for juicing up freight trains though.

 

[robertclark125]

With this, there is the possibility at some stage of a new order for AC locos, mainly for freight, but whats to say for passenger use as well, or with ETH for emergencies and railtours?

 

[freetoview33]

Maybe we could get Bristol - Swansea services with the Class 319's?