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Britain's bus coverage hits 28-year low

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Teflon Lettuce

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That is wales, I dont live there.. That like comparing apples to pears. The rates are much higher up here in central belt of Scotland, than what your saying. It was sweeping statement to highlight the pointlessness of single rate across the uk, I do believe it may need to be higher doon south or higher in pockets around Manchester, It' the same reason why council tax isn't the same all over. I can tell you people stacking shelves in the local supermarket get no where near what your saying, I know people in Tesco that £7.50 if there lucky.

SO taking the point, you now have the knowledge that I had while making said statement IE The driver are already ABOVE that pay right..... I was pointing out This living wage is coming down the road which will add cost additional contractor whatever there may be,
But you yourself made sweeping statements about pay rates based on limited local knowledge, and also about living costs in somewhere that you don't live... I actually agree that a NATIONAL living wage is a ridiculous idea... as is proved by the fact that, as usual, London will be a "special" case and will have a higher living wage than everywhere else.

However, whilst there are certainly many areas where the current rate is at or above the living wage, it doesn't alter the fact that it is still far lower than what the job and it's responsibilities are worth.

Also, I took exception to your statement that someone in the Highlands would be rich on the living wage.. whilst I don't know what the living costs are in the highlands, I do live in a deeply rural part of wales... as such I have to pay approximately 10p a litre more for my petrol, my council tax is higher, and my rent is higher than in a more urban area. On top of the extra money I have to spend per litre of petrol, I have to use more petrol than in an urban area for such things as shopping... my nearest supermarket is 12 miles away. Also, because of limited local job opportunities I have a commute of 45 miles in each direction... it works out that I have to work one day a week just to pay for my travel costs!

I for one can't wait for my employer to be forced to pay a "living" wage....

As to you saying that Tesco's only pay 7.50 where you live... well round here morrisons pay 8.00 an hr... so I could take a much less responsible job with a lot less stress and only be earning 20p an hr less than I am now...

what do you think will happen when the living wage comes in? do you think that bus drivers will be paid the living wage+ extra to reflect their responsibilities? or do you think that bus drivers wages will be driven down to the lowest common denominator... before you answer that please look at what has happened to bus driver's wages historically
 
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GusB

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Also, I took exception to your statement that someone in the Highlands would be rich on the living wage.. whilst I don't know what the living costs are in the highlands, I do live in a deeply rural part of wales... as such I have to pay approximately 10p a litre more for my petrol, my council tax is higher, and my rent is higher than in a more urban area. On top of the extra money I have to spend per litre of petrol, I have to use more petrol than in an urban area for such things as shopping... my nearest supermarket is 12 miles away. Also, because of limited local job opportunities I have a commute of 45 miles in each direction... it works out that I have to work one day a week just to pay for my travel costs!
I would agree with this. I'm not technically in the Highlands, but not too far away. I live in a rural area which isn't too far away from the main centre of population, but travel costs are high. I am fortunate enough to be able to work from home, and I'm paid slightly more than the living wage. On the face of it, I'm probably better off than most people of the same skill level and who actually have to travel to work on a daily basis. When my car failed its MOT a few years ago and was uneconomical to repair, I chose just to scrap it. ASDA and Tesco deliver here from the town 7 miles away and, Sainsbury's will come out from as far away as Nairn, so grocery shopping isn't an issue. If I decide that I want to go outwith the village for a night out, it's a very different story. While we used to have a bus service that ran from 7am until 11pm, it now stops just after 6pm, and the only way to get in and out of town is by taxi, which is about £20 on the meter each way.

There's also an assumption that accommodation is dirt cheap out here in the sticks. It isn't. What little council housing there was disappeared shortly after right-to-buy was introduced and many of those properties are now in the private rental sector. The holiday cottage industry also removes a fair amount of housing stock from general use in these parts too, thus inflating prices further whether you're looking to buy or rent.
To bring things vaguely back on topic, I used to travel on my bus route daily for school. I would catch the bus shortly after 8am, and return after 4pm. As well as the 10 guaranteed school journeys per week, also used to use the bus for band practice on Mondays and my model railway club meetings on Wednesdays. Evening buses were always fairly lightly loaded, but the 9.45pm (ish) departure was usually busy with pensioners coming home from the bingo. The local ATC also used to meet on a Wednesday, and there were usually a fair few kids coming home from there, meaning that a full-size bus would be fairly well loaded. Then some bright spark decided that minibuses were the way forward, and everyone was crammed onto a 24-seat Dodgy S56. (if I had a penny for each time that moaning cow from the next village moaned because my trombone was taking up too much space...)
Shortly after that, Highland Scottish put a bid for the local school contracts, and ended up running our 7am service, as well as the evening services. This involved much light running from Nairn to Elgin - with a decker! Not only that, my weekly commuter card wasn't valid, so I had to fork out the additional cost of a single to get me home at night.

Stagecoach got the the route back, but latterly they decided to run our local service via another town which already had a decent service, and the numbers fairly quickly dropped off. The funding of the evening services was eventually scrapped by the council due to falling numbers, re-instated by the next lot who managed to find some extra in the budget, and then scrapped again by the next administration. In the meantime, those who relied on the service to get to and from work had to make other arrangements, including finding alternative employment, and in some case actually having to move house. It's crazy - what was a fairly healthy loading for a vehicle like an Optare Solo, suddenly became a basket-case simply because it was tinkered with too much.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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It's crazy - what was a fairly healthy loading for a vehicle like an Optare Solo, suddenly became a basket-case simply because it was tinkered with too much.

This is a lesson that has seemingly still not been learned in the 31 years since Deregulation. It is often said that the reasons so many people like trams is that the very presence of rails in the road lends a strong semblance of both permanence and reliability. The only way for bus services to have the same reputation is through stability of networks and timetables as well as reliability of operation. Deregulation completely undermined such practice with its (initial) 42 day notice period, barely enough time to prepare any publicity never mind giving time for the public to absorb it and adjust as necessary. And the commercialisation so beloved of the free-marketeers simply led to what were mostly pointless bus wars that provided only short-term benefits to passengers while in the long-term simply undermined people's confidence in the bus.

One of the few achievements of GMPTE was to reduce the frequency of service changes by persuading the major operators to limit the number of dates in the year when services might be changed. But ideally if there are to be changes at all they need to be kept to a maximum of just 2 or 3 times a year IMO. It has been mentioned upthread how First are withdrawing a number of established services around Bolton and Bury in April: included in the mix is the end of service 575 between Bolton and Horwich, once the scene of a particularly bitter bus war between GMBuses North and Blue Bus with multiple buses at times literally chasing each other down the road. Times do change of course but it is a sign of bus companies' determination to maintain their margins that what ought, even today, to be modestly profitable routes are being axed.

There is much talk of renationalising the railways but perhaps transport campaigners should actually be demanding nationalisation of bus services with fully centralised funding. At least then there might be more even handed ways of making changes rather than the lottery which exists today.
 

Bletchleyite

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As I have said above, ENCTS does not pay the operator an amount per passenger carried. It pays an amount based on how many people would (hypothetically) have travelled and paid a fare had the scheme not existed.

The whole payment is based in the knowledge that lots of OAPs wouldn't travel if they had to pay. This is why the scheme is so damaging to marginal routes in rural areas.

It's a very common misconception that ENCTS pays per passenger. It's a misconception the government doesn't try very hard to correct, either.

It's not a misconception in some areas. In some areas it is paid per passenger, but at a reduced rate (I think somewhere around 50% of adult single[1]) based on the calculation you outline.

Re network stability I think this is a management cultural issue. Some managers seem to like constant tinkering, whereas others seem to like to make big changes infrequently. The MK network is like the latter, even many of the timetables haven't changed for several years, let alone the routes, though there have been a couple of notable cuts this year.

[1] You can now see why bus companies are inflating adult single fares and offering excellent value day and period tickets in those areas.
 

Robertj21a

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oh how dare those nasty bus drivers expect to be paid a wage that they are able to live on without state aid? what for? just for taking the lives of up to 90 people in their hands and taking full responsibility for negotiating their way through all the idiots that they have to share the road space with?
Seriously, I don't see it as being THAT much of a burden... it just means that the bosses will have to take a smaller slice of the cake... after all I'm sure that Mr Souter can afford a pay cut from his millions... and as for shareholders.... why do they get first dibs on profits when all they do all day is sit on their arses gambling and {hopefully} watching their money grow... when the people who actually make the profits are living on poverty wages?

Shareholders - why do they get first dibs on profits........

If you truly don't understand that then it's not surprising that you're frustrated, by your lack of knowledge.
 

Martin1988

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I do recognise that the ENTCS scheme has a lot of benefits in terms of getting people to shops, leisure activities and doctors appointments. However I disapprove of the way passes can be used on long distance routes and people can use them to travel across the country.
 

yorksrob

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I do recognise that the ENTCS scheme has a lot of benefits in terms of getting people to shops, leisure activities and doctors appointments. However I disapprove of the way passes can be used on long distance routes and people can use them to travel across the country.

Do people really use them to go across the country though ? Yes there were a few newsworthy occasions when the scheme went nationwide, but I suspect such cases are few and far between.

If the ability to travel around is a good thing generally, then why wouldn't this be the case for someone on holiday for example ?
 

Martin1988

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To be honest I'm not sure. Can recall a few instances of being on buses when passengers have been doing that.

Come to think of it I know a number of transport enthusiasts who probably have done that sort of thing but maybe thats not truly representative of the whole population.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Shareholders - why do they get first dibs on profits........

If you truly don't understand that then it's not surprising that you're frustrated, by your lack of knowledge.
lol I fully understand why shareholders get first dibs on profits... that doesn't make it right though does it? especially when those profits are partly paid for through those actually earning the money {the workers} are being paid poverty wages which mean that they have to claim in work benefits... paid for by the taxpayer!
 

Bletchleyite

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I do recognise that the ENTCS scheme has a lot of benefits in terms of getting people to shops, leisure activities and doctors appointments. However I disapprove of the way passes can be used on long distance routes and people can use them to travel across the country.

They can be used on relatively few long-distance routes - the ones where they can is only where the operator is registering things as a string of local bus routes (like the X5 does) or as sections (like some NatEx routes).

It's so "de minimis" it's really not worth worrying about. And it has the benefit that people don't end up with passes that aren't much use based on where they actually need to go - it basically removes the unfair anomalies based on County boundaries. For example if it was a County based scheme, my parents in Ormskirk would get a pass allowing travel to Preston and Lancaster etc, but not allowing it to a much more likely destination of Liverpool.

What's perhaps more silly is the way the Scottish passes are valid on *all* buses and coaches in Scotland, meaning the Scottish Government effectively pays Megabus and Citylink to compete with the rail service they are also subsidising.
 

Wirewiper

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What's perhaps more silly is the way the Scottish passes are valid on *all* buses and coaches in Scotland, meaning the Scottish Government effectively pays Megabus and Citylink to compete with the rail service they are also subsidising.

That's a good point. However in some more remote locations Megabus or Citylink are the only public transport, and double up as the local bus service too. This may be why the Scottish Government has gone for a blanket approach and made the concession available on all bus and coach services, without having complicated and confusing rules about exactly where passes can and cannot be used.
 

Mutant Lemming

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Community and dial a ride services are all well and good for residents but what about visitors/tourists?
They can't be expected to phone days ahead to book a bus service, and I myself have had to arrange taxis etc to relatives because the only bus services to their village was a dial a ride bus

You can't please everyone - the community run service from Dent station can take visitors from the station to Dent but when those visitors want to go beyond Dent to Sedbergh or Kendal then it is the residents of those villages that can't use the service in to Kendal.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Clearly, there are a lot of differing factors all at play, rather than one magical golden bullet to solve things. Many of these factors are outside of the control of bus companies anyway.

Costs - Bus companies naturally try to control their costs. After all, it is much more achievable to save £100k (by removing a vehicle) than to generate a £1m worth of additional revenue (assuming a 10% margin). They are facing inflationary increases in many areas and whilst they can hedge fuel prices etc and attempt to nail down manufacturers and suppliers on new and ongoing vehicle costs, there is only so much that they can do. The shortage of drivers clearly pushes costs up and bus travel is sensitive to increases. With 50% of costs being staff, you can understand why operators try to walk the line between paying lower increases whilst also trying to ensure that they pay enough to recruit and retain.

ENCTS - not the whole problem but clearly a massive challenge. In the early days, operators quite liked it as they were expecting to get a benefit. Why wouldn't you expect that? McDonalds wouldn't expect to sell twice as many burgers yet still make the same profit? However, that is what "no better, no worse" means and it's crazy. Not only that, remuneration is so low in some areas that it is fine for a "top up" but not where it is the primary source of income. In addition, even with local administration, you get massive anomalies between routes, and hence the operators have been forced to pass the burden on to fare payers.

Areas of economic decline - there's often mention of the "areas of low car ownership". These were often historically great bus territory as they had low car ownership etc. Now you have the position that these are still low car ownership but that a substantial number of areas have suffered economic decline. That impacts in two ways - there are fewer cash payers as jobs are scarcer. Then you have those who are on benefits for whom their benefits have been reduced by stuff like Universal Credit and other pernicious moves. Fewer people have jobs, and many have less money = lower bus use.

Council cuts - a personal bugbear of mine was the creation of the big society. What is actually was is a hollowing out of the state's role in providing services. Not just for bus travel but whether it is public toilets, libraries or whatever. Local government is starved of money from the centre but is charged with making the best use of the reduced funds under a "we're giving you a local say" mantra. Given that there are a number of STATUTORY services that councils MUST provide, and that bus services aren't one of them and they have barely enough money for the statutory ones, it is not a surprise that they are cutting the nice to haves. Not to say that they aren't important - they're just not statutory.

Congestion - bus operators are suffering from increasing congestion. It destroys reliability (and that is THE main point for passengers) and so they have a choice - more buses to the same headway = more cost for same revenue OR same buses to a wider headway = same cost for lower revenue. It is an unenviable task and not helped by the lack of bus priority in many towns and cities, and that that is there is seldom well designed or policed. We have probably reached a tipping point in many towns where inexorable car and commercial vehicle growth is now gridlocking road networks.

Town centre decline - the growth of internet shopping is having a massive impact on high street footfall, by as much as 5% a year. It's a massive hit for operators. That's just an average - for every Altrincham with it's food shops with organic hummus and boutiques, there's a Rochdale, dying on its proverbial.

Removal of subsidised services - the usual axing of Sundays and evening services. Now, it's often said that operators fail to account for the evening trade and its impact on daytime services. Well, that's b***ocks of the highest order. They do the maths but if you're running a service for one or two passes and a handful of cash fares, it just will not pay. Who here will spend £30 in the hope of getting £15 back? Not many. Of course, there are plenty of examples where operators will actually carry on running til 8 or 9 because the evening trade of workers finishing and the punters heading into town is sufficient to pay. Then running until 11 is a cost (few passengers) but even after that, the extended opening hours mean that people may not wish to return at 23:10 but much later. There have been instances where operators have taken on Sunday services, often because conversely, Sunday shopping is still a growth area!

Focussing on key corridors - well, you would, wouldn't you. Why would you bust your nuts on a marginal service that has little potential when there are better growth options. In fact, it explains why some of the ridership figures are skewed where you have larger mileage cuts yet lower loss of overall passenger journeys.


Of course, the answer is always to have more money invested in public transport. However, ask 100 people on the street how they would want their money spent and the NHS will invariably win, followed by Social Care and Education. Public Transport will win votes on the select clientele who read and contribute to this message board but not elsewhere. And that is a fact! You may wish our leaders would have the courage to do "the right thing" - well, we have had a mess for long enough and Brexit ain't going to make it any better!
 

Robertj21a

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lol I fully understand why shareholders get first dibs on profits... that doesn't make it right though does it? especially when those profits are partly paid for through those actually earning the money {the workers} are being paid poverty wages which mean that they have to claim in work benefits... paid for by the taxpayer!

You're getting off-topic, but there is, nowadays, a National Minimum Wage which, presumably, is the minimum being paid to any of the workers you refer to as receiving 'poverty wages'. You should lobby your MP if you want the government to make changes.
As for in-work benefits (again off-topic), I think you'll find that any payments are related to personal, individual, circumstances.
Finally, yes, it is quite right that shareholders get first dibs on profits.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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You're getting off-topic, but there is, nowadays, a National Minimum Wage which, presumably, is the minimum being paid to any of the workers you refer to as receiving 'poverty wages'. You should lobby your MP if you want the government to make changes.
As for in-work benefits (again off-topic), I think you'll find that any payments are related to personal, individual, circumstances.
Finally, yes, it is quite right that shareholders get first dibs on profits.
well seeing as though even George Osbourne decided that the minimum wage is/ was too low and came up with the national living wage {voluntary for now but to be brought in over stages through the next few years} then I fail to see how you can justify a highly skilled professional driver being paid the minimum wage...

It is IMMORAL that ANY worker should be paid poverty wages that force them to claim in work benefits.. in short that is us the taxpayer subsidising shareholder dividends.

As to it being right that shareholders get first dibs on profits... how can you claim that? why should shareholders gain ANY profit if the ones actually earning the money for the company {the employees} can't afford to live on the wages paid?
That is the main problem with our society... the greed of the rich.. and no I'm not a commie... I just believe in a fair days pay for a fair days work
 

Robertj21a

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well seeing as though even George Osbourne decided that the minimum wage is/ was too low and came up with the national living wage {voluntary for now but to be brought in over stages through the next few years} then I fail to see how you can justify a highly skilled professional driver being paid the minimum wage...

It is IMMORAL that ANY worker should be paid poverty wages that force them to claim in work benefits.. in short that is us the taxpayer subsidising shareholder dividends.

As to it being right that shareholders get first dibs on profits... how can you claim that? why should shareholders gain ANY profit if the ones actually earning the money for the company {the employees} can't afford to live on the wages paid?
That is the main problem with our society... the greed of the rich.. and no I'm not a commie... I just believe in a fair days pay for a fair days work

Sorry, you're now far too off-topic (and I disagree with much of what you say anyway !). I suggest you raise it under a more suitable thread if you wish to pursue it.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Sorry, you're now far too off-topic (and I disagree with much of what you say anyway !). I suggest you raise it under a more suitable thread if you wish to pursue it.
how am I off topic? this is a discussion about why bus services are shrinking fast.. one of those reasons is rising costs... a major part of those costs are wages... wages are set to rise even further thanks to government policy... of course if you don't want to defend the indefensible {poverty wages and excessive shareholder dividends} then that is your look out... but I strongly suggest you do the job of bus driver for the wages offered before you pontificate on the rights and wrongs of the rates paid...

the fact that you refuse to defend your indefensible viewpoint means I can rest my case
 

Robertj21a

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how am I off topic? this is a discussion about why bus services are shrinking fast.. one of those reasons is rising costs... a major part of those costs are wages... wages are set to rise even further thanks to government policy... of course if you don't want to defend the indefensible {poverty wages and excessive shareholder dividends} then that is your look out... but I strongly suggest you do the job of bus driver for the wages offered before you pontificate on the rights and wrongs of the rates paid...

the fact that you refuse to defend your indefensible viewpoint means I can rest my case

The topic is 'Bus coverage hits 28-year low' - not 'Poverty wages and excessive shareholder dividends'. Start a different thread and stop deflecting everything towards your personal agenda.
 

Dentonian

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What do you mean by the first two being cons? Are you saying that they are not additional costs to bus operators?

No. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that bus operators and more especially bus passengers - whether full fare paying adults or those with disabilities - have been conned, by whoever has decided that Traffic/Parking Wardens, Civil Obedience Officers or whatever LAs call them his week, should DELIBERATELY and CONSISTENTLY ignore bus stop blocking. Not that the Police were any better before Decriminalisation (a decade or so, ago?)
 

Dentonian

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The topic is 'Bus coverage hits 28-year low' - not 'Poverty wages and excessive shareholder dividends'. Start a different thread and stop deflecting everything towards your personal agenda.

Sorry, but Teflon Lettuce's points are all relevant factors to the thread.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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The topic is 'Bus coverage hits 28-year low' - not 'Poverty wages and excessive shareholder dividends'. Start a different thread and stop deflecting everything towards your personal agenda.

I'm sorry but I wasn't the one who originally brought up the subject of wages... I am just pointing out the indefensibility of claiming it is ok to pay poverty wages for a skilled job... I can only assume that you have never worked as a bus driver and that you are a shareholder... I also note you have refused to defend your position that it is ok to pay poverty wages and expect the tax payer to subsidise those wages whilst shareholders cream off a large profit for themselves...
you ask the relevance of my point? well over the next few years bus operators are going to be forced to put up wages through the implementation of the compulsory National Living Wage. What do YOU think will happen? will shareholders take a cut to their dividends? or do you think that what will happen is that even more "unremunitive" mileage will be cut, leading to a smaller network and less jobs.... with the usual blame game of "it's those greedy bus drivers wanting to be paid a fair wage" and "it's all the new red tape" and "it's cos of government interference"

I bet your bottom dollar the shareholders won't blame their own greed when the next round of cuts come about...
 

PeterC

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They can be used on relatively few long-distance routes - the ones where they can is only where the operator is registering things as a string of local bus routes (like the X5 does) or as sections (like some NatEx routes).

It's so "de minimis" it's really not worth worrying about. And it has the benefit that people don't end up with passes that aren't much use based on where they actually need to go - it basically removes the unfair anomalies based on County boundaries. For example if it was a County based scheme, my parents in Ormskirk would get a pass allowing travel to Preston and Lancaster etc, but not allowing it to a much more likely destination of Liverpool.

What's perhaps more silly is the way the Scottish passes are valid on *all* buses and coaches in Scotland, meaning the Scottish Government effectively pays Megabus and Citylink to compete with the rail service they are also subsidising.
The X5 does seem to be an exception although I would need to travel on it and observe how ENCTS was being used before commenting. Certainly ENCTS acceptance on the Oxford Tube between Lewknor and Oxford seems perfectly reasonable.

With the old county based schemes my late mother could travel from Romford to Heathrow or Croydon for nothing while her sister could do the same from Brentwood to Harwich but they had to pay to travel the eight miles or so to visit each other. So I often ended up with an 80 mile round trip to driver her!
 

Dentonian

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Town centre decline - the growth of internet shopping is having a massive impact on high street footfall, by as much as 5% a year. It's a massive hit for operators. That's just an average - for every Altrincham with it's food shops with organic hummus and boutiques, there's a Rochdale, dying on its proverbial.

Removal of subsidised services - the usual axing of Sundays and evening services. Now, it's often said that operators fail to account for the evening trade and its impact on daytime services. Well, that's b***ocks of the highest order. They do the maths but if you're running a service for one or two passes and a handful of cash fares, it just will not pay. Who here will spend £30 in the hope of getting £15 back? Not many. Of course, there are plenty of examples where operators will actually carry on running til 8 or 9 because the evening trade of workers finishing and the punters heading into town is sufficient to pay. Then running until 11 is a cost (few passengers) but even after that, the extended opening hours mean that people may not wish to return at 23:10 but much later. There have been instances where operators have taken on Sunday services, often because conversely, Sunday shopping is still a growth area!

Focussing on key corridors - well, you would, wouldn't you. Why would you bust your nuts on a marginal service that has little potential when there are better growth options. In fact, it explains why some of the ridership figures are skewed where you have larger mileage cuts yet lower loss of overall passenger journeys.


Of course, the answer is always to have more money invested in public transport. However, ask 100 people on the street how they would want their money spent and the NHS will invariably win, followed by Social Care and Education. Public Transport will win votes on the select clientele who read and contribute to this message board but not elsewhere. And that is a fact! You may wish our leaders would have the courage to do "the right thing" - well, we have had a mess for long enough and Brexit ain't going to make it any better!

Noting that the arguments I have by-passed are because I agree with you - I think its worth commenting on these others.

Town centre decline: More of an ironic observance. Rochdale and Altrincham have always been poles apart economically, but equally they share one thing. They have always been the two worst "bus territories" in GM. Back in GMT days (way before Metrolink, of course) the depots in the two towns were consistently the worst performers, and it was no surprise that they were amongst the first to close - despite Alty being a nearly new building. This suggests other factors than straight economics at play.

Sunday/evening services: Again these bear closer scrutiny. Yes, these were slashed as a matter of course on 26 October 1986, but for the services left, they then had the additional blow of changes in Licensing hours and the changes in social habits surrounding drinking eg. Heavy taxes on pubs selling a generally well behaved regular adult clientele, whilst a blind eye was turned to local shops selling cheap lager and cider to teenagers. Yes, some will argue the smoking ban had some effect, but that argument is one-sided. Virtually every one I know likes a drink, but virtually no one smokes and those that did, quit many years before 2006. So, for many the smoking ban would make a pub a far MORE attractive environment - and indeed, the same goes for the bus to/from the pub!
The other thing is Sunday trading; Such is the "sheep" mentality of the private sector in this country, that until recently (and based on local hours), I thought the law specified (large) shops could only open between 1100 & 1700. Further, I didn't realise that the "opening hours" actually reffered to the retail tills, not to the shop doors nor to the sale of food and drink.
Point being that both TFGM and commercial Operators act on exactly the same mindset. Thus, tendered services don't start until late Sunday morning with first arrivals in major town centres are often well after 1100. Similarly, Operators of commercial services don't step up service levels - or indeed running times - until around 1030-1100. Thus, if there is no half decent service to get retail workers to work, shoppers to shops or Daytrippers on their way for a reasonable time, they are either going to go by car, or simply stay in.

Key corridors: Too presumptive. Yes, SOME main corridors are more profitable than many suburban services, but this is by no means the rule, particularly if a "key corridor" is automatically the route into the regional centre, rather than to local towns

The trouble with "vox pops" (and as I think I've mentioned elsewhere, I have never been asked my opinion on anything that isn't a straightforward "how do you rate your stay"?) is that apart from them easily being skewed, they are far too simplistic. Tiresome though it is to some, public spending in all sectors is skewed towards London - we've heard all the quotes about Rail investment - but much less publicity is given to the 25-30% per pupil more spent on every London schoolkid or such as the recent revelation that London GPs are getting more money per patient, despite their patients visiting less because they are healthier, due to a younger demographic and having better access (financially and literally) to healthier food etc. Though, apparently rural GPs also get more money - but for slightly different reasons. Point being people want the spending within each service to be prioritised better and obviously "public transport" means completely different things to different people.

I suspect we agree on Brexit, though!
 

carlberry

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well seeing as though even George Osbourne decided that the minimum wage is/ was too low and came up with the national living wage {voluntary for now but to be brought in over stages through the next few years} then I fail to see how you can justify a highly skilled professional driver being paid the minimum wage...
The minimum wage was raised by George Osbourne (and there are planed rises in it in the future, if they're implemented) and he renamed it the national living wage to confuse people. It is a legal minimum however it isn't the same as the 'living wage' that is calculated by a group of NGOs and is higher.
 

Mutant Lemming

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For example if it was a County based scheme, my parents in Ormskirk would get a pass allowing travel to Preston and Lancaster etc, but not allowing it to a much more likely destination of Liverpool.

.

But what about people voting for a local council based on them getting lower rates/council tax ? They are voting to save money yet expect to benefit from services in neighbouring areas that people support with their rates and taxes. In that respect the local system is actually fairer.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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But what about people voting for a local council based on them getting lower rates/council tax ? They are voting to save money yet expect to benefit from services in neighbouring areas that people support with their rates and taxes. In that respect the local system is actually fairer.
hasn't there always been a certain amount of quid pro quo though? Certainly where I live on a county boundary the nearest town is in a neighbouring county, yet I go there for the library, school children go to school "across the border" and I even collect my recycling bags from that county's offices... and I am sure that there are areas where the reverse is true.

Certainly the old LA administered schemes threw up some major anomolies... eg 321 Luton- St Albans. Luton residents paid a flat fare with their passes {at the end of the scheme 50p IIRC- meaning £1 return} whilst residents of St Albans had to pay half fare. Furthermore a Luton resident would be able to use the first bus of the day whereas a St Albans resident would have to wait until 9am or be accused of being a twirlie.
The main problem with ENCTS as I see it is that it is a national scheme, but administration is "devolved" to the LA's with the added barb of central government refusing to actually provide any money to the LA's to administer it!
 

radamfi

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I can only assume that you have never worked as a bus driver and that you are a shareholder...

It is possible to be both a bus driver and a shareholder. Most if not all bus drivers have the option of contributing to a workplace pension which are typically invested in equities by default. If you impose punitive penalties on shareholders (for example, by not having "first dibs" on profits), then investing in equities would become less attractive, meaning that many people might choose alternative investments, meaning reduction in share values or even a collapse in the stock market. If owners of privately held companies can't take their profits, then why buy a bus company? The only option therefore would be state ownership.

Relatively modest increases in pay as described on this thread, however, should be affordable and if it doesn't affect too many people, it shouldn't cause inflation. If the industry can't even pay such modest amounts then there is something badly wrong. Many if not most people reading this thread are probably earning way in excess of the pay rates mentioned here.

People have been presenting lists of excuses why we are in this sorry state, and this is just one of them, with the current government getting most of the blame. But previous governments are equally if not more culpable, especially the 1997-2010 Labour government which did nothing to reverse previous mistakes despite having the resources and large Commons majority to make things happen.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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It is possible to be both a bus driver and a shareholder. Most if not all bus drivers have the option of contributing to a workplace pension which are typically invested in equities by default. If you impose punitive penalties on shareholders (for example, by not having "first dibs" on profits), then investing in equities would become less attractive, meaning that many people might choose alternative investments, meaning reduction in share values or even a collapse in the stock market. If owners of privately held companies can't take their profits, then why buy a bus company? The only option therefore would be state ownership.

Relatively modest increases in pay as described on this thread, however, should be affordable and if it doesn't affect too many people, it shouldn't cause inflation. If the industry can't even pay such modest amounts then there is something badly wrong. Many if not most people reading this thread are probably earning way in excess of the pay rates mentioned here.

People have been presenting lists of excuses why we are in this sorry state, and this is just one of them, with the current government getting most of the blame. But previous governments are equally if not more culpable, especially the 1997-2010 Labour government which did nothing to reverse previous mistakes despite having the resources and large Commons majority to make things happen.
oh dear you come in half way through a discussion and take one line out of context to construct a viewpoint...

as to your assertion as to moderately small increases in wages being affordable then why don't the bus companies automatically pay those increases without fighting tooth and nail to offer paltry wages? there can only be one reason... shareholder greed... in any case for my wages to increase to the living wage would mean a minimum of a 25% increase!
 

radamfi

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oh dear you come in half way through a discussion and take one line out of context to construct a viewpoint...

as to your assertion as to moderately small increases in wages being affordable then why don't the bus companies automatically pay those increases without fighting tooth and nail to offer paltry wages? there can only be one reason... shareholder greed... in any case for my wages to increase to the living wage would mean a minimum of a 25% increase!

Just in case it was not entirely clear, I agree with you that bus drivers should be paid more, not just for ethical reasons but because it should also mean a better performing workforce. The primary reason for the existence for any private company is to make money for its owners, i.e. its shareholders. So the company would be failing in its responsibility to shareholders if it doesn't try to keep pay as low as possible. Depending on the industry and type of job, that may still mean paying a high wage to attract high calibre of staff, but even then they still want to pay as little as possible. If enough people are willing to do the job competently for next to nothing, then there is no incentive to pay more. In that case, government intervention is required to impose a higher minimum wage.
 

RT4038

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oh dear you come in half way through a discussion and take one line out of context to construct a viewpoint...

as to your assertion as to moderately small increases in wages being affordable then why don't the bus companies automatically pay those increases without fighting tooth and nail to offer paltry wages? there can only be one reason... shareholder greed... in any case for my wages to increase to the living wage would mean a minimum of a 25% increase!

The reason is ...... your customers do not want ( cannot?) pay for your increase in wages! If bus drivers wages go up, fares will go up. Most likely your customers will travel less or not at all. No customers = no job. (Unless you think all your customers would pay more ? ) Take a look at the history of the coal mining industry to see what happens.
 
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