Idea: Class 360s to Cross Country: Could it work?

[Elecman]

Given the present poor attitude shown by XC to its passengers and the fact using any extra stock involves additional costs that DaFT/ Treasury won't fund there is 0 chance of them using the 360s on any service.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

So we had a thread about 350/2s working Manchester-Birmingham jobs, now it's 360s. the reasons why it will not work are the same.

 

[tbtc]

Sounds good in theory.

At the moment we have:

• Just two trains per hour between the largest cities in provincial England
• Under five hundred standard class seats per hour between the two cities
• A wholly electrified line between the two cities that only sees a token electrified service (the 06:27 service from Piccadilly)
• No spare stock suitable to increase capacity on existing XC services (until some 1970s trains are freed up by IET in a year or two - bearing in mind that ScotRail have first dibs)
• Hundreds of modern EMU carriages with no home to go to (inc 350s, 379)

...it doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest changing something here - it seems a lot more pressing than a lot of the "problems" on here that people are so keen to solve.

Worth remembering that Manchester had no direct service to Bristol/ Devon/ Cornwall in VT days (when the "south west" service was 3tp2h to Newcastle and the ECML and 1tp2h to Scotland up the WCML with nothing through Manchester)

Similarly, Liverpool used to have direct services to Bristol/ Reading etc, but now gets more seats as far as New Street instead.

Someone somewhere knows the percentage of Manchester passengers who use services beyond Birmingham to Oxford/ Southampton/ Bristol/ Plymouth etc - I have no idea - but there's maybe a trade-off to be made between the (larger?) number of passengers travelling between Manchester and Birmingham and the (smaller?) number heading between Manchester and stations further south.

I take the point about trying to reduce the number of terminating services dwelling at scarce New Street platforms but we could do something about that by joining up some of the ex-Central Trains services - e.g. Nottingham, Hereford, Leicester, Shrewsbury. But the railway seems to go round in circles on issues like this - we want to chop up unreliable longer services but then we want to tie such services back together to avoid them occupying platforms at congested stations.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Sounds good in theory.

At the moment we have:

• Just two trains per hour between the largest cities in provincial England
• Under five hundred standard class seats per hour between the two cities
• A wholly electrified line between the two cities that only sees a token electrified service (the 06:27 service from Piccadilly)
• No spare stock suitable to increase capacity on existing XC services (until some 1970s trains are freed up by IET in a year or two - bearing in mind that ScotRail have first dibs)
• Hundreds of modern EMU carriages with no home to go to (inc 350s, 379)

...it doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest changing something here - it seems a lot more pressing than a lot of the "problems" on here that people are so keen to solve.

Worth remembering that Manchester had no direct service to Bristol/ Devon/ Cornwall in VT days (when the "south west" service was 3tp2h to Newcastle and the ECML and 1tp2h to Scotland up the WCML with nothing through Manchester)

Similarly, Liverpool used to have direct services to Bristol/ Reading etc, but now gets more seats as far as New Street instead.

Someone somewhere knows the percentage of Manchester passengers who use services beyond Birmingham to Oxford/ Southampton/ Bristol/ Plymouth etc - I have no idea - but there's maybe a trade-off to be made between the (larger?) number of passengers travelling between Manchester and Birmingham and the (smaller?) number heading between Manchester and stations further south.

I take the point about trying to reduce the number of terminating services dwelling at scarce New Street platforms but we could do something about that by joining up some of the ex-Central Trains services - e.g. Nottingham, Hereford, Leicester, Shrewsbury. But the railway seems to go round in circles on issues like this - we want to chop up unreliable longer services but then we want to tie such services back together to avoid them occupying platforms at congested stations.

The Plan is the Camp Hill Cords to move the Hereford's, Leicester's and Nottingham-Cardiff's out of New Street, some people are anti that and I understand why but it is the only way capacity can be released at New Street and at Proof House junction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Plan is the Camp Hill Cords to move the Hereford's, Leicester's and Nottingham-Cardiff's out of New Street, some people are anti that and I understand why but it is the only way capacity can be released at New Street and at Proof House junction.

Move them where? Moor St/Snow Hill?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Someone somewhere knows the percentage of Manchester passengers who use services beyond Birmingham to Oxford/ Southampton/ Bristol/ Plymouth etc - I have no idea - but there's maybe a trade-off to be made between the (larger?) number of passengers travelling between Manchester and Birmingham and the (smaller?) number heading between Manchester and stations further south.

I don't have figures but it's certainly my observation that there is a significant changeover of XC passengers at New St, probably at least half on any given train.

 

[Kettledrum]

Move them where? Moor St/Snow Hill?

Moor street - but requires the building of the camp hill chords

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Move them where? Moor St/Snow Hill?

Camp Hill Cords moves them into the proposed platforms five and six at Moor Street with all of the Chiltern stuff running up to Snow Hill with platform four re-instated.

People have to understand that Birmingham New Street is a hole in the ground connected by four two track tunnels and nothing can be done to improve capacity on the site unless much of the city is dug up and re-built which is not going to happen. Moor Street to Snow Hill is also constrained by a two track tunnel (albeit bi-di signalled).

ps Operation Princess was supposed to get passengers to change at other towns and cities to stop this mess happening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't seem a terrible idea for the Hereford at least, as other trains towards Worcester also go from Moor St. Moor St is also quite a nice station and isn't far from New St at all, though the pedestrian tunnel between the two is a bit scabby.

 

[Ian Brown]

And they have been before - pre-Princess North West Regional Railways used to run hourly Manc-Brum using Class 309s. Wouldn't be any harm in doing that, and it would be a benefit to those who like competition.

I attended a meeting a few weeks ago in the Class 309 buffet car currently at the ERM. Superb vehicles which were well received when they ran a Manchester to Stafford peak service. The Class 360 would also be received likewise if it were operated as a regional Manchester to Coventry service. If you look at fares on offer from Liverpool to London on LNW regional services then compare with Manchester London, you will see the potential for an additional operator between Manchester and London. Manchester to London is one of the biggest long bus flows in Britain

 

[mushroomchow]

Move them where? Moor St/Snow Hill?

As a regular endurer of the Leicester - Birmingham sardine can, getting to alight at the gorgeous Moor Street as opposed to the polished turd that is New Street would certainly be a silver lining! Shame it's completely impractical without track layout changes. Hell, there's more chance of a future interchange with HS2 at Curzon Street.

The XC routes lumbered with 170s, sometimes 2 car at rush hour, are probably the only ones on the entire railway network where a Voyager taken off the services discussed would be a step up, if only for the additional seats. I feel dirty even saying that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a regular endurer of the Leicester - Birmingham sardine can, getting to alight at the gorgeous Moor Street as opposed to the polished turd that is New Street would certainly be a silver lining! Shame it's completely impractical without track layout changes. Hell, there's more chance of a future interchange with HS2 at Curzon Street.

Other than stinking Voyagers, I quite like New St these days. Other than the slight inconvenience of the split A end (which wasn't easily avoidable without grade separation of the entrance or only having one platform access as before) and it being a bit cold in winter it to me is really quite well done.

The XC routes lumbered with 170s, sometimes 2 car at rush hour, are probably the only ones on the entire railway network where a Voyager taken off the services discussed would be a step up, if only for the additional seats. I feel dirty even saying that.

Quite. Those trains need to all be 4-car minimum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I attended a meeting a few weeks ago in the Class 309 buffet car currently at the ERM. Superb vehicles which were well received when they ran a Manchester to Stafford peak service. The Class 360 would also be received likewise if it were operated as a regional Manchester to Coventry service. If you look at fares on offer from Liverpool to London on LNW regional services then compare with Manchester London, you will see the potential for an additional operator between Manchester and London. Manchester to London is one of the biggest long bus flows in Britain

At the weekend I went from Bletchley to Liverpool and back using Class 350s (on a Super Off Peak which was excellent value, couldn't have paid the petrol alone for the price). Most of it other than one leg was on 350/3s. It occurred to me just how nice they are inside - much nicer than Voyagers - decent seats, plenty of tables, no shoulde room issues, most seats properly window aligned[1]. OK, 360s are 3+2, but you can replace seats. And if First Class was 2+1 and had been 50% higher, I'd certainly have gone with that.

[1] You could have them all aligned, and the slightly tight legroom in places solved, by removing just 4 seats from each vehicle.

 

[59CosG95]

As a regular endurer of the Leicester - Birmingham sardine can, getting to alight at the gorgeous Moor Street as opposed to the polished turd that is New Street would certainly be a silver lining! Shame it's completely impractical without track layout changes. Hell, there's more chance of a future interchange with HS2 at Curzon Street.

The XC routes lumbered with 170s, sometimes 2 car at rush hour, are probably the only ones on the entire railway network where a Voyager taken off the services discussed would be a step up, if only for the additional seats. I feel dirty even saying that.

Well, I'm not sure how much traction the Bordesley Chords Scheme has gained in the last few months (if you'll excuse the pun), but that would involve a diversion of XC regional services and WMR Worcs/Malverns/Hereford services into Moor Street via chords at each end of the viaduct where the Camp Hill Line crosses the Chiltern Main Line (near Small Heath), thus freeing up capacity in New Street indirectly.

But, back to the 360 idea, a source of mine from Northampton Kings Heath has said that rumours are abounding that WMT (well, LNR) may well be hoovering up the ex-GA 360s...

 

[Bletchleyite]

But, back to the 360 idea, a source of mine from Northampton Kings Heath has said that rumours are abounding that WMT (well, LNR) may well be hoovering up the ex-GA 360s...

Well, they do need more capacity in advance of their new Aventras arriving, and they would be more reliable and a better fit than 319s.

 

[Class465fan]

They could also use the 379s that are to be withdrawn shortly.

 

[D365]

If the Class 345 operation to Heathrow was still on time I could imagine Heathrow loaning out their 360s. The 379s would make zero sense for WMT with the Aventras coming in.

 

[59CosG95]

If the Class 345 operation to Heathrow was still on time I could imagine Heathrow loaning out their 360s. The 379s would make zero sense for WMT with the Aventras coming in.

EMT meanwhile would be an ideal place for them...the Corby service could be 379-operated.
Given the MML's previous experience with 387s and that the services on the Thameslink lines are currently 100mph only, they could be interwoven without much issue...possibly.

As you mentioned, the 360/2s are BAA-owned, so where they end up is BAA's discretion.

 

[Prestige15]

EMT meanwhile would be an ideal place for them...the Corby service could be 379-operated.
Given the MML's previous experience with 387s and that the services on the Thameslink lines are currently 100mph only, they could be interwoven without much issue...possibly.

As you mentioned, the 360/2s are BAA-owned, so where they end up is BAA's discretion.

I have a little feeling the 397 or 387's would eventually end up on the MML in a year or so, Im sure the 379's can be upgraded to 110mph without much issues.

 

[Flyingsprinter]

Sorry if this has been said, but what’s actually happening with cross country’s hst’s? Are they any plans to make the prm compliant within the next 2 years? And are they getting any cascaded hsts for gwr or vtec? If not then what are they actually going to do? I smell chaos.

 

[43096]

Sorry if this has been said, but what’s actually happening with cross country’s hst’s? Are they any plans to make the prm compliant within the next 2 years? And are they getting any cascaded hsts for gwr or vtec? If not then what are they actually going to do? I smell chaos.

XC HSTs being made PRM compliant with the sliding doors. The first set is currently in Wabtec for the work. Only the five existing HST sets are being done for XC - they are not getting any more sets.

 

[Flyingsprinter]

Thanks 43096. Why aren’t cross country getting any more hst’s? Surley giving them to cross country to provide a much needed capacity boost is better then scrapping them? I thought it would be a no brainier?

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks 43096. Why aren’t cross country getting any more hst’s? Surley giving them to cross country to provide a much needed capacity boost is better then scrapping them? I thought it would be a no brainier?

Because they are in the last two years of their contract and not in a position to lease any new stock. Need to ask DfT to specify more stock for the next franchise.

However this isn’t really the place to discuss XC HSTs, I’m sure it must be covered somewhere else.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I attended a meeting a few weeks ago in the Class 309 buffet car currently at the ERM. Superb vehicles which were well received when they ran a Manchester to Stafford peak service. The Class 360 would also be received likewise if it were operated as a regional Manchester to Coventry service. If you look at fares on offer from Liverpool to London on LNW regional services then compare with Manchester London, you will see the potential for an additional operator between Manchester and London. Manchester to London is one of the biggest long bus flows in Britain

Which is why I often compare Nat Ex/Megabus rates before booking anything to London!

 

[D365]

I have a little feeling the 397 or 387's would eventually end up on the MML in a year or so, Im sure the 379's can be upgraded to 110mph without much issues.

The only 387s going spare are the six on short-term lease to c2c. I’d reckon that out of the EMU cascade options the 379s have to be most likely; assuming the agreed upon lease terms are favourable.u

360s (and the 350/2s a short while after) are anyone’s guess.

 

[Wivenswold]

Don't expect much support from DfT on this one. The poor service between the two cities is a prime example of "why we need HS2", the worse the service gets the more justification they will have to invest billions on one project rather than using the money for small-scale improvements across the country.

 

[D365]

Don't expect much support from DfT on this one. The poor service between the two cities is a prime example of "why we need HS2", the worse the service gets the more justification they will have to invest billions on one project rather than using the money for small-scale improvements across the country.

What two cities?

Aside from enabling projects I don't think HS2 is linked to CP6 spending in any way.

 

[Ianno87]

Don't expect much support from DfT on this one. The poor service between the two cities is a prime example of "why we need HS2", the worse the service gets the more justification they will have to invest billions on one project rather than using the money for small-scale improvements across the country.

At what point has the XC service from Manchester to Birmingham 'got worse'?

 

[Wivenswold]

At what point has the XC service from Manchester to Birmingham 'got worse'?

I'm not sure what you mean. If there really are only 2 trains per hour between Brum and Manchester, that's pretty bobbins. I'm merely alluding to a Governmental propensity to create problems to prove that less-than-popular schemes are necessary. See Yes Prime Minister, The Thick Of It and House Of Cards for details.

 

[D365]

I'm merely alluding to a Governmental propensity to create problems to prove that less-than-popular schemes are necessary.

Since when did necessity directly correlate with perceived popularity?