Idea: Class 360s to Cross Country: Could it work?

[Prestige15]

I was thinking before if the class 360 which will be withdrawn from Greater Anglia could be used on Cross Country?

My idea would be having them refurbished into Intercity style (Similar to TPE 350), Upgraded to 110mph and used on a half hourly Manchester - Birmingham Internation (or maybe even Coventry) with one via Crewe and possibly Manchester Airport and the other via Stoke, along with a hourly Voyager to Bristol/Bournemouth etc (maintaining half hourly Manchester - Stoke - Birmingham).

This could release other Voyagers to other service, Perhaps some double Voyagers from Manchester to Birmingham and split them with one to Bournemouth and the other to Bristol, What's your opinion, Could all or part of this work?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suggest you check your spelling of "Cross Country" for fear of causing offence

Might not be a bad idea, that. They used to (pre-Princess) have short Manchester-Birmingham Intl workings.

 

[mallard]

We really don't need any more "regional" services tacked on to the the XC franchise. The ones they have already are already horribly neglected (dirty, poorly maintained trains, frequent cancellations and late running, stations neglected since they're operated by TOCs that don't run service there, poor connections with other TOCs). Let them concentrate on the long-distance Intercity services, since that's all they actually care about, and transfer the regional routes to more appropriate TOCs.

If there's to be an electric "commuter-style" service between Birmingham/Coventry and Manchester, give it to the West Midlands franchise not XC.

 

[sprinterguy]

That seems like a pretty good idea to me. A suburban/regional type train to mop up commuter/short distance demand between Stafford, Wolverhampton and Birmingham or Macclesfield, Stockport and Manchester, while still maintaining through journey opportunities and freeing up some space on the remaining true long distance services would be very welcome.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If there's to be an electric "commuter-style" service between Birmingham/Coventry and Manchester, give it to the West Midlands franchise not XC.

Assuming you aren't applying prejudice of "doors at thirds" = "commuter", that isn't what he's proposing, he's proposing ICXC services from Manchester to Birmingham to be partly EMU operated using refitted 360s with an InterCity (185 style i.e. 2+1 in 1st and lots of tables in Std) interior which would be much higher quality than the Voyager interior.

I would agree that a *commuter* service from Manchester to Birmingham, were there to be one, e.g. as a way of serving Stone, Barlaston/Wedgwood etc, should not sit with XC. But that's not what he is proposing.

A nice set of Grammers with tables and decent luggage racks in an 8-car 360 formation (possibly permanently coupled to allow one First Class section, one cycle provision etc) would make a very nice train for a 1.5 hour journey as well as lots of much needed capacity.

 

[mallard]

Even if "commuter-style" is the wrong turn of phrase, it's at best a "regional express" service, not long-distance Intercity. Maybe a new franchisee would change things, but the current one clearly has zero interest in providing good service on such routes.

 

[Prestige15]

I suggest you check your spelling of "Cross Country" for fear of causing offence

Might not be a bad idea, that. They used to (pre-Princess) have short Manchester-Birmingham Intl workings.

I suggest you check your spelling of "Cross Country" for fear of causing offence

Might not be a bad idea, that. They used to (pre-Princess) have short Manchester-Birmingham Intl workings.

I just noticed the spelling, Oh well, Can do with another Mocha at this time

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even if "commuter-style" is the wrong turn of phrase, it's at best a "regional express" service, not long-distance Intercity. Maybe a new franchisee would change things, but the current one clearly has zero interest in providing good service on such routes.

To the extent that XC provides a good service on anything (it really is a dire TOC) it doesn't presently neglect Manc to Brum any more than it neglects anything else - not sure why you think it would if it used EMUs to run it.

 

[DarloRich]

We really don't need any more "regional" services tacked on to the the XC franchise. The ones they have already are already horribly neglected (dirty, poorly maintained trains, frequent cancellations and late running, stations neglected since they're operated by TOCs that don't run service there, poor connections with other TOCs). Let them concentrate on the long-distance Intercity services, since that's all they actually care about, and transfer the regional routes to more appropriate TOCs.

If there's to be an electric "commuter-style" service between Birmingham/Coventry and Manchester, give it to the West Midlands franchise not XC.

Is that a symptom of the operator and contract rather than service levels?

However I agree that Brum - Manc services may be better off in a regional, rather than national, franchise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that a symptom of the operator and contract rather than service levels?

However I agree that Brum - Manc services may be better off in a regional, rather than national, franchise.

And they have been before - pre-Princess North West Regional Railways used to run hourly Manc-Brum using Class 309s. Wouldn't be any harm in doing that, and it would be a benefit to those who like competition.

 

[swt_passenger]

Splitting the XC services at Birmingham and replacing the Man Picc to New St leg with (non specific) EMUs was discussed in another thread within the last week or two. It doesn't really matter which EMU stock you choose, any such proposal would eat into platform capacity at New St, and lead to more interchanging at a station which continually generates complaints here about interchange difficulties (since the rebuilding).

If as suggested in the prior thread, all the services ran further through New St to some other terminating locations, then you are still trying to path a couple more trains per hour through a pretty congested part of the network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If as suggested in the prior thread, all the services ran further through New St to some other terminating locations, then you are still trying to path a couple more trains per hour through a pretty congested part of the network.

If the service went to "wmtrains" they could run through from London Euston via Birmingham New St to Manchester Piccadilly, therefore using no additional paths for that part. It would also be very popular, no doubt, as a "budget" service from London and MK (albeit a lot slower than the Trent Valley).

Given that part of their plan is to reduce or remove termination at New St, assuming the retention of 3 Euston-Birmingham via Northampton trains per hour, you could have one of them through to Liverpool, one through to Manchester and one through (via the Stone dog-leg to serve Alsager etc) to Crewe. (The latter is actually planned).

The other Liverpool could be connected to the International-New St stopping service or the Wolverhampton stopper.

 

[swt_passenger]

If the service went to "wmtrains" they could run through from London Euston via Birmingham New St to Manchester Piccadilly, therefore using no additional paths for that part. It would also be very popular, no doubt, as a "budget" service from London and MK (albeit a lot slower than the Trent Valley).

But what about the pax from the south coast via Oxford and from Bristol that want a through service?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But what about the pax from the south coast via Oxford and from Bristol that want a through service?

There are two through XC services per hour from Manchester, this would only replace one of them allowing the other to be doubled up with the Voyagers released.

If there was a reliable way to do it you could portion work or alternate them to the two main destinations.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are two through XC services per hour from Manchester, this would only replace one of them allowing the other to be doubled up with the Voyagers released.

The OP clearly proposed a half hourly service, ie both of the 2 tph...

 

[sprinterguy]

The OP clearly proposed a half hourly service, ie both of the 2 tph...

One of the electric services is proposed to be via Crewe, though, essentially a new service (I appreciate that there's a handful of Manchester - Birmingham XC services that currently operate via Crewe, but not at a regular frequency).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The OP clearly proposed a half hourly service, ie both of the 2 tph...

So they did, sorry. I'd propose replacing only one of them, which would free up roughly 3 Voyagers[1] for strengthening.

[1] A round trip takes about 3 hours, which means 3 units required for hourly, roughly.

 

[sprinterguy]

So they did, sorry. I'd propose replacing only one of them, which would free up roughly 3 Voyagers for strengthening.

The OP does propose replacing only one of them. As I've mentioned, one of the hourly electric services would essentially be a new service, via Crewe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The OP does propose replacing only one of them. As I've mentioned, one of the hourly electric services would essentially be a new service, via Crewe.

You could as an alternative to that extend the existing Crewe stopper if there is a suitable path.

 

[route:oxford]

Would this work as an Open Access service in addition to the current two XC services?

 

[AlterEgo]

Would this work as an Open Access service in addition to the current two XC services?

No, it probably couldn’t be open access because it would be deemed to be primarily abstractive. That is, competing directly with a franchised TOC for the same passengers, that TOC being charged with making a return for the taxpayer, without encouraging enough new traffic from new markets to add value.

 

[jw]

Wasn't one of the benefits of the Norton Bridge flyover works a new hourly path (or two) - what services were proposed to use the new capacity?

 

[The Planner]

I don't think they ever really existed, or if they did they were between a very short distance.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

CrossCountry is a bad enough intercity service - using 360s would just make it feel even less like an intercity route.

Who knows? Might work - but I don’t think it is the best idea...

 

[a_c_skinner]

While we are daydreaming Crewe to the North isn't well served, an occasional Crewe to newly a wired Blackpool trip would help and I could do Lancaster to Euston at a leisurely pace on less crowded trains. I do know this is wholly impractical of course.

 

[D365]

CrossCountry is a bad enough intercity service - using 360s would just make it feel even less like an intercity route.

If it was still Virgin I bet your opinion would be rather different...

 

[JamesRowden]

Splitting the XC services at Birmingham and replacing the Man Picc to New St leg with (non specific) EMUs was discussed in another thread within the last week or two. It doesn't really matter which EMU stock you choose, any such proposal would eat into platform capacity at New St, and lead to more interchanging at a station which continually generates complaints here about interchange difficulties (since the rebuilding).

If as suggested in the prior thread, all the services ran further through New St to some other terminating locations, then you are still trying to path a couple more trains per hour through a pretty congested part of the network.

In the 'What would you like to see in the next Great Western franchise' thread a link to a document which contains a potential post-HS2 service pattern has been posted. It seems to suggest replacing:

• 1tph Bournemouth to Manchester via Oxford, Coventry and Birmingham New Street
• 1tph Paddington to Oxford

With:

• 1tph Bournemouth to Manchester via Oxford and Milton Keynes
• 1tph Paddington to Birmingham New Street via Reading, Leamington Spa and Coventry
• 1tph Birmingham International to Manchester via Birmingham New Street

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If it was still Virgin I bet your opinion would be rather different...

No... a VT 360 would still be worse than a Virgin Voyager.

 

[sd0733]

With all the modern EMUs coming on stream this does seem to make sense paths through new street given, give it to LNW franchise and run as 8 car from Manchester Airport to Birmingham airport via Piccadilly and International. The wm fleet could even retain some of the 350/2 fleet albeit refurbished to 2x2 for this work.
Proof house junction could be the main problem though for this though due to lack of paths.

 

[Bevan Price]

And they have been before - pre-Princess North West Regional Railways used to run hourly Manc-Brum using Class 309s. Wouldn't be any harm in doing that, and it would be a benefit to those who like competition.

I think there were only 2 or 3 Manchester / Birmingham services per day with 309s - RR North Western probably did not have enough to run a complete hourly service. Class 312 used to reach Manchester at one time .(And in early electrification days, some Class 304 used to run between Manchester & Birmingham on "most station" services.

Unfortunately, the silly franchise system discourages new ideas, so whilst I think it would be sensible to replace Voyagers by EMUs over this section, we are likely to remain stuck with what DfT decrees has to happen.