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South Wales 'Metro' updates

gareth950

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Can someone please confirm for me again how WG would deal with de-staffing the Valley lines if the light rail conversion went ahead?
Is it literally a case of making the entire Valley lines workforce of guards and train drivers redundant, then asking them to re-apply for jobs on the new LR network?

Would TUPE apply at all? E.g. would existing VL train drivers be able to transfer over as tram drivers on current pay levels, and guards transfer over as on-board RPIs on existing pay levels?
 
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Bletchleyite

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Would TUPE apply at all? E.g. would existing VL train drivers be able to transfer over as tram drivers on current pay levels, and guards transfer over as on-board RPIs on existing pay levels?

I don't believe it does, no, any more than if you closed the line and had Arriva run buses on the route they'd get TUPEd over as bus drivers. Train driver and tram driver are not the same job (and the latter tend to be paid quite a bit less), and guard is not a role that exists on light rail; conductor is the closest but it's not the same as it is not safety critical, it is simply a revenue and customer service role more like an OBS, and it's also not one that they will necessarily have, as not all the new-generation tramways do.

The main purpose of TUPE is where people are being transferred from one company to another in the same job or what is essentially the same job, for example by way of a contract (e.g. a TOC, a cleaning firm or whatever) moving between suppliers. It's not intended for when something is closed down and replaced with something rather different.

So I believe it would be a mass redundancy situation, subject to the rules surrounding that (e.g. consultation periods), unless ATW was able to redeploy elsewhere on their network or get enough voluntary early retirement, which if they freeze recruitment of new drivers and guards is likely to be possible for at least some of them.
 

gareth950

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I don't believe it does, no, any more than if you closed the line and had Arriva run buses on the route they'd get TUPEd over as bus drivers. Train driver and tram driver are not the same job (and the latter tend to be paid quite a bit less), and guard is not a role that exists on light rail; conductor is the closest but it's not the same as it is not safety critical, it is simply a revenue and customer service role more like an OBS, and it's also not one that they will necessarily have, as not all the new-generation tramways do.
They'd have to have some form of revenue protection on board. The only alternative would be to staff and barrier off every single station, which would be horrendously expensive. The Valleys would go from a 'pay if challegned' network to 'get on, it's a free ride'.
 

Bletchleyite

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They'd have to have some form of revenue protection on board. The only alternative would be to staff and barrier off every single station, which would be horrendously expensive. The Valleys would go from a 'pay if challegned' network to 'get on, it's a free ride'.

More of the tram systems use "penalty fares"[1] and spot checks than use conductors. But an RPI squad's job is even more different from that of a safety-critical revenue guard, and so that's even more of a case of simple redundancy.

FWIW, whether heavy or light rail, the Valleys in my view absolutely has to go to a pay before you board, TVMs at every station, Penalty Fares system. So that's not a light vs. heavy rail argument as such (barring that heavy rail gets to take advantage of Cardiff Central and Queen Street having barriers).

[1] As it's not National Rail, these do not have to comply to the Penalty Fares regulations, so the lack of an uppercase "p" and "f" is deliberate. Metrolink's scheme for example is rather heftier than the National Rail variety.
 

Gareth Marston

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Carwhinge has promised " no complusory redundancies" which seems to suggest that to gain the control over core valley lines Welsh Government will happily throw away any theoritcal staff cost saving of alight Rail. Which confirms its all political and nothing to do with transport.
 

Bletchleyite

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Carwhinge has promised " no complusory redundancies" which seems to suggest that to gain the control over core valley lines Welsh Government will happily throw away any theoritcal staff cost saving of alight Rail. Which confirms its all political and nothing to do with transport.

Untrue. It would be possible to still have the staff saving in the medium term by way of freezing driver and guard recruitment at ATW, a good early retirement package etc. That's roughly how Merseyrail is going to do it.
 

gareth950

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Untrue. It would be possible to still have the staff saving in the medium term by way of freezing driver and guard recruitment at ATW, a good early retirement package etc. That's roughly how Merseyrail is going to do it.
ATW are still actively recruiting guards.
 

gareth950

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More of the tram systems use "penalty fares"[1] and spot checks than use conductors. But an RPI squad's job is even more different from that of a safety-critical revenue guard, and so that's even more of a case of simple redundancy.

FWIW, whether heavy or light rail, the Valleys in my view absolutely has to go to a pay before you board, TVMs at every station, Penalty Fares system. So that's not a light vs. heavy rail argument as such (barring that heavy rail gets to take advantage of Cardiff Central and Queen Street having barriers).

[1] As it's not National Rail, these do not have to comply to the Penalty Fares regulations, so the lack of an uppercase "p" and "f" is deliberate. Metrolink's scheme for example is rather heftier than the National Rail variety.
It'll take years to change the culture on the VL of not paying unless challenged with a spot checks system. Even with 4 TVMs per station and screaming posters everywhere, if people know they are more than likely able to ride without being checked, they will take the risk and won't pay, losing the operator precious revenue.
And of course all TVMs will have to accept cash, as it's a valid payment method, and currently ATW say that they don't provide TVMs that accept cash at every station because the risk of vandalism is too high.
So how would that be overcome? We are not a cashless society
 
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158756

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ATW are actually advertising for train drivers - £47,562.https://www.comeaboard.co.uk/recruiter/users/jobsearch.php?&id=2162

They can't not - ATW is contracted to run a train service and presumably to hand over to the next operator a staff capable of operating a train service. If the next operator comes in with a need to shed 50 or 100 drivers it'll be their problem. Improved services on other lines in South Wales would help absorb some of any surplus of heavy rail staff.
 

Gareth Marston

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They can't not - ATW is contracted to run a train service and presumably to hand over to the next operator a staff capable of operating a train service. If the next operator comes in with a need to shed 50 or 100 drivers it'll be their problem. Improved services on other lines in South Wales would help absorb some of any surplus of heavy rail staff.
Wow just what improved services will soak up displaced Valley drivers and conductors? Remember all the infrastrture improvements that would allow enhanced services elsewhere have been kicked into the long grass to accommodate light rail conversion of core valley lines.
 

Gareth Marston

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Untrue. It would be possible to still have the staff saving in the medium term by way of freezing driver and guard recruitment at ATW, a good early retirement package etc. That's roughly how Merseyrail is going to do it.

Welsh Government has form on these things. The 2007 "bonfire of the quangos" similar things were said yet the Welsh Government hR director was heard moaning that he had a 1000 more on the headcount that had been envisaged 5 years later.
 

NotATrainspott

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Creating a Light Rail network based on Snow Hill is quite easy. Hereford and Worcester can access New St via Bromsgrove. You can have Heavy Rail running alongside Light Rail from Dorridge into Birmingham utilizing the 4 track formation. Stratford can have Light Rail one way to Birmingham and Heavy Rail the other. A heavy rail shuttle between Worcester and Kidderminster would be needed.
We constantly hear from Metrolink fans that the disbenefits to the Mid Cheshire line being diverted at Altrincham are far outweighed by the benefits elsewhere of Light Rail round Greater Manchester. Surely (if true) that should apply to the West Midlands also? The massive benefits of Light Rail to Kidderminster/Stourbridge/Solihull etc surely outweigh the incontinence elsewhere?

The reality of course is that no one sees that the benefits of Light Rail as being that great they can justify some relatively minor rejigging of heavy rail services from Worcester......

The Merseyrail solution of splitting HR services isn't acceptable now. In Manchester, the only service that was affected by conversion without being able to be converted was the Chester one. Even then, this was simply diverted via Stockport rather than cut short. Cutting an existing HR service like you describe has significant problems. What would happen in the Valleys is that the entire service would be converted, because the lines are dead-end branches and a split would be worthless and operationally impossible. LR not being suitable for the suburban parts of through routes in one city does not mean it becomes unsuitable for physically separated branch line routes in another.

The more you write, the planner it becomes that your overriding obsession is with spending as little as possible on public transport. Fair enough: there is no reason why things should cost more than they need to. But there comes a point where the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater, by having a system which is so low spec that nobody actually wants to use it, unless they really have to. And the major problem with light rail in this respect, as demonstrated in Manchester every morning, is miserably low capacity, which can only be alleviated by restoring the features that an HR suburban system would have had, in particular the city centre tunnel (despite the fact that you are still using the lack of city centre street running as a stick to beat HR systems with). Pretty much all the other costs-saving measures you advocate could be achieved on an HR system.

This is just nonsense. I don't want to cut spending on public transport. I want the money we do spend to go as far as we possibly can. With that, you can justify having things that we cannot have otherwise. For the same cost you can have a lot more LR than you can have HR, delivering much more for local communities while being operationally self-sustaining. The best way to protect public transport against people who don't like it is to make sure it's able to stand on its own two feet and not be dependent on the kindness of strangers.

Also, I'm sorry, but how does 'nobody actually wants to use it, unless they really have to' square with Metrolink being busy every day? What you cannot argue against is the concrete fact that Metrolink takes in more ticket revenue than it spends on running the network. If Metrolink was a disaster, that simply could not be true. If a system is capable of making an operational profit, that means it's doing something right. Bad schemes can't make money. If Metrolink was that crap, the unregulated bus operations in Manchester would be making a killing by competing against it.

The higher capacity of a heavier rail system is only required because passenger numbers have grown. Passenger numbers have grown because Metrolink has been a success. If Metrolink were a failure, passenger numbers would have stayed static or decreased, and there would be no need to ever think of upgrading it. Isn't that obvious?

No, the only real cost-saving measure you can do on HR is to run DOO. While that helps, it's nowhere near enough. You still have to pay HR drivers' salaries. You still have no choice but to install lifts or massively expensive ramps to provide accessibility. You still have to maintain the track for trains far heavier than are really required to move the people about. If you want to reopen or extend a line you have no option but to build expensive tunnels and bridges to separate the track from even the lightest traffic flows. Your stations still have to be where the railway could be built, rather than where people actually are and want to go. Essentially anything that suburban HR can do, LR can do too. The same is not true the other way around.

More deeply, though, I think we approach this from different starting points. You seem to feel that an urban area of 2.8 million people, like Manchester, or however many live in south-east Wales, will not generate enough journeys to justify investment in the sort of suburban rail systems which are taken for granted in similar-sized congregations in Germany. (You talk about a hierarchy of transport, but those cities use U-bahns and tramways to supplement S-bahn systems, not as the main means of transport for the whole urban area). I take the view that we should be looking at what other advanced countries are providing in terms of public transport, and consider them as benchmarks for our cities. We're really not as special in this country as we like to delude ourselves into thinking we are.

South East Wales has 1.5 million people. What should be a plan for a Metro sytem for the entire region has been hijacked for political reasons into a Light Rail Conversion of existing Heavy Rail lines that serve c250K -c300K of them. Transport for Wales overriding rational for what its proposing has very little to do with Notatrainspott fundamentalist views.

How many cities in Germany have an U-Bahn? Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Munich and Nuremberg. That's really not that many cities. How many have tramways? I count 57 cities and towns with tram and Stadtbahn networks, according to Wikipedia. Clearly the Germans think that tramway and Stadtbahn networks are more universally suitable for medium-sized cities.

It's a mistake to look at population figures. The numbers which really matter are about density. Los Angeles is a huge city by population standards, but it's one of the least dense major cities in the world. Density is what makes public transport actually worthwhile and necessary. Only when you have very large volumes of people moving along certain corridors in an urban area is the cost of building permanent public transport infrastructure worthwhile. You don't need to have Manhattan or Hong Kong density to justify a tunnelled metro. Instead, you just need long corridors of consistent medium density - think three-four storey tenements - making up the core of your urban area. Extensions into proper suburbs are acceptable when the incremental cost of extension is smaller than the benefits you receive. But, if your city consists of lower-density suburbs essentially all the way into the urban core, the sums just don't stack up. While the cost of construction might be slightly lower, the number of people within practical walking or quick public transport transfer distance from any prospective metro line is too small.

On top of that, the transport priorities of people in lower density areas are also likely to be different. In a higher-density area, people are more likely to have work, study, retail and leisure opportunities again within walking or public transport distance, making them more dependent on public transport in general. In a lower density area, public transport is less of an option and other developments don't happen with as much expectation of it. In a dense city built on public transport companies have little choice but to put jobs within reach of public transport. In a lower-density area companies can just rely on people having their own car, and putting them in cheaper but less conveniently located places like business parks off trunk roads.

When you've got people dispersed over a wide area of lower density, your choice of transport system has to accommodate it. LR is better at handling lower densities than HR, because it can affordably penetrate lower-density suburbs built far from feasible HR routes. It can provide some transport, rather than none. When densities and possible passenger numbers are lower, it can affordably provide a good enough service for the people who are able to use it. The 10tph service to Altrincham is great for the people who are increasingly able to and dependent on travel via Metrolink. The alternative is that they have to pay for the capacity for lots of people who aren't currently able or dependent on travelling, or that the service is dialled back to be more affordable to run.
 

PHILIPE

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I don't think we shall see much happening so far as the Metro is concerned as the Welsh Government also take ages dithering before steps are taken, M4 Relief Road an example of this.
 
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gareth950

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I don't think we shall see much happening so far as the Metro as the Welsh Government also take ages dithering before steps are taken, M4 Relief Road an example of this.
Indeed, the final decision has already been pushed back by 6 months. It was due to be announced originally last December.

Still no news on if any plans for 1/1/2020 exist either.
 

Del1977

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It'll take years to change the culture on the VL of not paying unless challenged with a spot checks system. Even with 4 TVMs per station and screaming posters everywhere, if people know they are more than likely able to ride without being checked, they will take the risk and won't pay, losing the operator precious revenue.
And of course all TVMs will have to accept cash, as it's a valid payment method, and currently ATW say that they don't provide TVMs that accept cash at every station because the risk of vandalism is too high.
So how would that be overcome? We are not a cashless society

Doesn't everyone use contactless now on their bank cards? London Buses, for example, haven't accepted cash fares for several years.

On revenue protection, they could employ DLR's tactics. Periodically, rather than issuing penalty fares they have prosecution days where people caught without tickets are prosecuted. Seems to work well for them.
 

Gareth Marston

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Doesn't everyone use contactless now on their bank cards? London Buses, for example, haven't accepted cash fares for several years.

On revenue protection, they could employ DLR's tactics. Periodically, rather than issuing penalty fares they have prosecution days where people caught without tickets are prosecuted. Seems to work well for them.
We take 25% to 30% cash. The rest of the UK doesn't do things like London. Only 12.5% of the UK's population live in London.
 

Bletchleyite

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Doesn't everyone use contactless now on their bank cards? London Buses, for example, haven't accepted cash fares for several years.

On revenue protection, they could employ DLR's tactics. Periodically, rather than issuing penalty fares they have prosecution days where people caught without tickets are prosecuted. Seems to work well for them.

Or they just go the Metrolink way and have an escalating PF structure that is intended to cover most of the costs of ticketless travel. If someone wants to pay £50 a week instead of £5 a day, so be it.
 

Bletchleyite

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We take 25% to 30% cash. The rest of the UK doesn't do things like London. Only 12.5% of the UK's population live in London.

Though rather than being stubborn about it, it is time the rest of the UK caught up on card payments. There are massive benefits to society of abandoning cash entirely - the ability to near enough get rid of the "black market" being one of them, not to mention (in a rail context) the ability to switch to TVMs as the sole means of doing ticketing on something simple like a city metro.

If it's only 20-30%, is it really time to think about making it 0%, providing for those who *really must* pay cash by way of something like PayPoint/PayZone in local shops like London buses do?
 

Dai Corner

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We take 25% to 30% cash. The rest of the UK doesn't do things like London. Only 12.5% of the UK's population live in London.

Newport and Cardiff seem to be a bit ahead of Mongomeryshire then. I only use cash for beer and bus fares these days (and Stagecoach now offer Contactless payments throughout South Wales I believe).
 

158756

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Though rather than being stubborn about it, it is time the rest of the UK caught up on card payments. There are massive benefits to society of abandoning cash entirely - the ability to near enough get rid of the "black market" being one of them.

To government, banks and businesses (though they insisted on charging extra for cards as long as it was legal) maybe. Not necessarily a benefit to the customer to have a card with all their money ready to disappear, or for the elderly to try to use (London's have had a head start with Oyster, and don't have to pay for most trains anyway).
 

gareth950

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Doesn't everyone use contactless now on their bank cards? London Buses, for example, haven't accepted cash fares for several years.

On revenue protection, they could employ DLR's tactics. Periodically, rather than issuing penalty fares they have prosecution days where people caught without tickets are prosecuted. Seems to work well for them.
I don't have a contactless bank card. We're talking about Valleys, not London commuters.
Though rather than being stubborn about it, it is time the rest of the UK caught up on card payments. There are massive benefits to society of abandoning cash entirely - the ability to near enough get rid of the "black market" being one of them, not to mention (in a rail context) the ability to switch to TVMs as the sole means of doing ticketing on something simple like a city metro.

If it's only 20-30%, is it really time to think about making it 0%, providing for those who *really must* pay cash by way of something like PayPoint/PayZone in local shops like London buses do?

What's there not to love about going cashless? Apart from the banks having total control over our finances. What could possibly go wrong?
 

Bletchleyite

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Newport and Cardiff seem to be a bit ahead of Mongomeryshire then. I only use cash for beer and bus fares these days (and Stagecoach now offer Contactless payments throughout South Wales I believe).

I mostly pay for beer by card these days, and most pubs I go to encourage it now by having obvious card machines on the bar. For me cash seems to be mostly only about bus fares, parking meters (why aren't more contactless? The cost saving would be huge, and it's far less faff than any mobile app) and the odd purchase from a stubborn local shop that won't do cards.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't have a contactless bank card. We're talking about Valleys, not London commuters.

It won't be long before everyone does. But in any case, you can always pay at a TVM with chip and PIN. That's 2004-ish tech, and the only people who don't have one of those now are American tourists and people who have chip and signature due to special needs (who may well have free local travel anyway, at least by bus, and could easily be given an exception if not just free travel generally).

What's there not to love about going cashless? Apart from the banks having total control over our finances. What could possibly go wrong?

Do you stash your cash under the bed or something? Very rarely do I have issues paying with my bank card, and this is easily avoided by simply having two.
 

Bletchleyite

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or for the elderly to try to use

I think people on here are quite disparaging to elderly people - don't forget that a very large proportion of them are "silver surfers" and are actually big adopters of tech. Also, today's elderly are people like my parents (Scousers, not Southerners) who pay for everything by card anyway!
 

gareth950

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It won't be long before everyone does. But in any case, you can always pay at a TVM with chip and PIN. That's 2004-ish tech, and the only people who don't have one of those now are American tourists and people who have chip and signature due to special needs (who may well have free local travel anyway, at least by bus, and could easily be given an exception if not just free travel generally).

I had a new bank card last year. I asked the bank for contactless and they refused to give me it.
Have you forgotten what happened 10 years ago? As I said, what could possibly go wrong in a cashless society with the banks totally in charge of all the nations money.
 

Bletchleyite

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I had a new bank card last year. I asked the bank for contactless and they refused to give me it.

Odd. But even so, as I said you can use Chip and PIN.

Have you forgotten what happened 10 years ago? As I said, what could possibly go wrong in a cashless society with the banks totally in charge of all the nations money.

Did anyone (apart from very rich people well over the threshold who hadn't had the sense to spread their risk a bit) lose money out of a personal bank account due to that? No. The FSCS covered anything they had to - even in the case of Icesave where they had no obligation to do so as it was not a UK bank. The bank run on Northern (c)Rock was because of idiots who panicked without actually bothering to research what would actually happen if the bank failed.

If the FSCS ever fails to cover its obligations in that way for a large UK bank, your cash is going to be worthless too - it'll be like Albania 20 years ago. Might as well get some gold (or goats) to barter in that case.
 

Dai Corner

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I think people on here are quite disparaging to elderly people - don't forget that a very large proportion of them are "silver surfers" and are actually big adopters of tech. Also, today's elderly are people like my parents (Scousers, not Southerners) who pay for everything by card anyway!

They seem to manage their contactless bus passes ok too.
 

Del1977

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I had a new bank card last year. I asked the bank for contactless and they refused to give me it.
Have you forgotten what happened 10 years ago? As I said, what could possibly go wrong in a cashless society with the banks totally in charge of all the nations money.

Well that's easily solved with a contactless Oyster card like London's. You can just top that up online or at a station.
 

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