West Coast Franchise speculation

[KashmireHawker]

I really do hope some sort of improvement (even if it's fairly small in the context) goes the way of the Voyagers, as it's needed on trains beginning to show there age. By The Way, if the two year DA comes about, VTWC will be over 23 years old come the end of the Franchise, making it the longest serving UK Railway Operator since Privatisation.

 

[Skie]

Dont mind the lighting on them, if you're on them for 2+ hours late at night they can be quite relaxing.

One thing I do wish they would address is the heaters and cramped window seats in Standard. You get so squished up against the plastic bulkhead (which seems to protude far more than it should need to) that all of the heat from the radiators bakes your leg. Hop over to the aisle seat and you are blasted by the air-conditioning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seem to be getting rid of warm yellowy lighting on stations in favour of either neutral or white lighting. The 350 have a neutral shade of white lighting, about 4000k in heat terms. Whereas the 390s seem to be more at 2700 - 3000k. 4500 is crisp white and 5000k plus is bluey white like first great western.

I’m well aware of all that, and I prefer < 3000K warm white. Almost nobody has high colour temperature lighting at home other than in a kitchen or bathroom (functional rooms) and I want to feel as comfortable and relaxed on a train as at home.

I really like the subdued, warm Pendolino lighting, which harks back to the days of tungsten, and I don’t want it changing for the likes of 800s or worse GWR HSTs, the designer of which lighting wants the sack.

 

[43096]

I’m well aware of all that, and I prefer < 3000K warm white. Almost nobody has high colour temperature lighting at home other than in a kitchen or bathroom (functional rooms) and I want to feel as comfortable and relaxed on a train as at home.

I really like the subdued, warm Pendolino lighting, which harks back to the days of tungsten, and I don’t want it changing for the likes of 800s or worse GWR HSTs, the designer of which lighting wants the sack.

Agreed on the GWR HSTs, but whoever came up with the dull, dingy, horrible interior of the Pendolino just needs shooting. They need stronger lighting inside as the windows are so small that they don't let in much light - hence the dingy atmosphere. The idea of putting luggage racks against windows when there are seats with no view whatsoever is just absurd. Really the interior of them needs ripping out and starting again.

 

[All Line Rover]

There are too many pillars to be able to position luggage racks against most, let alone all, of them. You can't "start again" with the body construction.

As for the lighting, the reading lights are, when working correctly, probably the brightest of any rolling stock, providing the best of both worlds. A daylight-bright saloon might be acceptable between Reading and Paddington, but not for early morning or late evening journeys between Glasgow and Euston.

While the Pendolinos can undoubtedly be cramped in standard class (especially when sat adjacent to a pillar), I personally like their internal decor and lighting ambience.

 

[pt_mad]

Agreed on the GWR HSTs, but whoever came up with the dull, dingy, horrible interior of the Pendolino just needs shooting. They need stronger lighting inside as the windows are so small that they don't let in much light - hence the dingy atmosphere. The idea of putting luggage racks against windows when there are seats with no view whatsoever is just absurd. Really the interior of them needs ripping out and starting again.

GWR blue ish light is probably a bit extreme.

But more of a neutral white might be an Improvement given the small windows.

Something closer to the tone of the lights on the class 350.

And aeroplanes seem to go for a more white or natural light rather than a warm yellowy light. Probably so it feels like more daylight is getting into the seating area.

So in principle if they did the same on a Pendolino it may make it feel more open.

Check out the attached image. Interior on easyJet. The lights don't have to be bright, just be of the right tone to give the right level of ambience.

 

[driver_m]

If there's limited funds and time, they could perhaps update interior lighting to LED fittings to bring efficiency and an improved ambience rather than the current yellow (warm) lighting. They could cover some of the magnolia plastics with wood effect vinyls very cheaply. Perhaps replace the overhead racks with glass racks, to make it feel more spacious and open (particularly on the Voyagers, and also gets rid of some yellow plastic).

And perhaps move the metal luggage racks to places where there is a plastic panel instead of a window. As there are currently luggage racks in front of windows and then other seats next to a full blocked out plastic panel window.

And perhaps remove that yellow plastic panel which runs across the ceiling with the circular light fittings within it. Has a sort of cream coloured mottled effect on it. Looks more APT than Pendolino or Voyager. Replacing with a modern grey with new modern light fittings would be good and probably relatively cheap in refurb terms.

They are LED. They were replaced as well .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed on the GWR HSTs, but whoever came up with the dull, dingy, horrible interior of the Pendolino just needs shooting. They need stronger lighting inside as the windows are so small that they don't let in much light - hence the dingy atmosphere. The idea of putting luggage racks against windows when there are seats with no view whatsoever is just absurd. Really the interior of them needs ripping out and starting again.

It’s not dull and dingy. It’s relaxing and subdued.

(Shows how much of an opinion thing it is)

 

[pt_mad]

The ironic thing is that when the operator took over from BR in the late 90s, they openly criticised the outdated rolling stock. And when the tilt stock was introduced, they used to say how terrible the inherited stock was and how great it was that it's not there now.

The Voyagers now are approaching 16 years old and TOCs are looking at withdrawing some of the class 170s that are about that age. My point is that they stood on modernisation for so many years especially after the introduction of the tilting stock but it seems more now like treading water to some extent rather than continued modernisation or raising the bar. The trains were designed inside and out in the late 90s. The electric sets are being repainted. However the inside is the same as how Alstom designed in 1999 or whatever when big square yellowy plastic computers were in fashion, and the future was thought to be plugging your own headphones in the seat to hear the radio, and having a round curved space age type seat seemed really cool.
However since then, units seem to be heading back more towards the basis of what a MK3 interior was like. Or what an East Coast or XC MK3 interior is like today. They seem to be the main standard.

The East Coast sets are just so much better it terms of travelling comfort and ambience. Just can't understand why standards on the WCML are not expected to be as high as that?

If there is to be another two year direct award on what is the most prestigious domestic line in the UK, surely more can be offered than just free WiFi and new performance targets?

On a related note, did Alston and Bombardier work in tandem on the designs for the Voyager and the Pendolino (interiors)? As both are so similar and we don't see that from different manufacturers nowadays. Perhaps it was that VT specified the interiors and gave both manufacturers the same specification.

 

[plcd1]

Direct award for Virgin Trains West Coast to keep running the franchise until West Coast Partnership starts confirmed by Grayling in announcement to the House of Commons.

Lots of denials that there is any linkage with the steps taken on the East Coast route!

EDIT - In answer to a MP for Milton Keynes Grayling said the direct award may last up to 2 years - depends on WC Partnership bidding process. ITT apparently due "soon".

 

[Mike395]

To the surprise of absolutely no-one I suspect, looks like the VT direct award to extend their franchise to 2020 is about to be announced.

 

[KashmireHawker]

The following is a Statement issued on VTWC's Media Centre at 18:03: https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/abou...of-passengers-on-its-west-coast-route-2142595

"Virgin Trains customers on the West Coast will see a significant improvement in on-board WiFi later this year. All 5656 Pendolino trains will undergo a refit which will vastly improve the on-board equipment, and allow free WiFi to be extended to all Pendolino customers.

The £7.5m investment is part of a new deal agreed with the Government, which will see Virgin Trains continue to run the West Coast franchise through to at least 31st March 2019, with the option for up to a further one-year extension at the Department for Transport’s discretion. The existing franchise expires on 31st March 2018, and the new contract will bridge the gap between the existing franchise and the new West Coast Partnership, due to start on 1st April 2019.

Installation of the WiFi upgrade is planned to begin on the Pendolino fleet from May 2018, with the work expected to be completed by January 2019, when free WiFi will be extended to all Pendolino customers. More than 85% of our customers travel on Pendolinos. In addition, the new technology is ‘future-proofed’ so it will work with 5G mobile phone networks as they come on stream and offer further speed improvements. The upgrade will also unlock the ability to offer more technology-led improvements in the future, all of which will increase customer satisfaction.

Welcoming the new deal, Phil Whittingham, Managing Director of Virgin Trains on the West Coast commented: “Virgin Trains has led the industry for more than two decades, and I’m delighted that we have secured a new contract to continue operating on the West Coast. The investment will see a big improvement in our on-board WiFi, and follows our industry-leading innovations such as automatic delay-repay and free films and TV on board via our Beam app.

“I’m pleased that we’ll be able to offer almost all of our customers access to the improved WiFi for free. We know WiFi is a top priority for our customers and I’m sure they’ll welcome the upgrades to both speed and availability.”

In addition to the WiFi improvements on board, Virgin Trains will also investigate eliminating ‘not-spots’, or places without mobile phone coverage, on parts of its network. The route taken by the west coast mainline sees a large number of these ‘not-spots’ as trains pass through cuttings and tunnels, and where there is no mobile phone coverage there is also no WiFi available. This work, together with the WiFi improvements, will allow customers to work more effectively on our trains, securing increased economic benefits for the UK.

Other initiatives included in the new contract are:

• All station ticket machines upgraded to accept contactless payment.
• More than £3m to improve station and on-board environments, including additional seating at stations and improved toilets, lighting and carpets on board.
• Additional staff at stations during busy times to improve accessibility.
• Better customer information during disruption through improved customer contact system.
• New apprenticeship opportunities, including for train driver roles.

The new contract will allow Virgin Trains to build on twenty years of success on the West Coast. Highlights include:

• Almost tripling journey numbers from 14m a year to more than 37m.
• Consistently topping the long distance franchised sector for passenger satisfaction
• Hitting record punctuality levels.
• Leading the industry with technology – automatic compensation for delays, free on board films and television programmes, and mticketing.
• Introducing services every twenty minutes between London and Birmingham / Manchester, and in the process virtually eliminating flights between Manchester and the capital.
• Paying nearly half a billion pounds (£476m) to taxpayers for the last three complete financial years."

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I can't get Parly TV to play Grayling's initial statement, but it seemed to be more about VTEC than VTWC.
But I did get Andy McDonald's response who appeared to be reading from an RMT press release.
Then it all descended into local lobbying including about entirely irrelevant MML services.
However, if they are not careful I can see Stagecoach, and therefore Virgin, being removed from future bidding shortlists.

PS Actually, having read the full announcement, it did include references to East Midlands services, so local MPs were quite entitled to raise questions.
But they do get very particular about tiny irritations, as though there aren't another 600-odd MPs with similar issues.
It all lets the minister off the hook on policy.

 

[Domh245]

However, if they are not careful I can see Stagecoach, and therefore Virgin, being removed from future bidding shortlists.

Grayling reiterated several times that there are no legal grounds to bar Stagecoach from bidding, so I can't see that happening, unless Stagecoach decide voluntarily to not bid?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The following is a Statement issued on VTWC's Media Centre at 18:03: https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/abou...of-passengers-on-its-west-coast-route-2142595

Much as trailed in advance.
The Pendolino wifi upgrade (announced for the last direct award) is already in progress during the repaint/refit, but isn't live yet - from May apparently.
Nothing about any Voyager refit, and they are pointedly excluded from the "free wifi" blurb.
Nothing about new services to Blackpool either (or anywhere else).

 

[DenmarkRail]

Grayling reiterated several times that there are no legal grounds to bar Stagecoach from bidding, so I can't see that happening, unless Stagecoach decide voluntarily to not bid?

There is no legal grounds to exclude them, but that doesn't say that they can't be pushed out of winning.

 

[XCTurbostar]

... All 5656 Pendolino trains will undergo a refit..

How many?!?

 

[KashmireHawker]

How many?!?

Someone's getting sacked in the morning! Just the 56 390 sets - Voyagers not included

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Grayling reiterated several times that there are no legal grounds to bar Stagecoach from bidding, so I can't see that happening, unless Stagecoach decide voluntarily to not bid?

They can bid (ie keep their passport), but it must cloud any short list assessment.
But is it any worse than First declining a direct award on FGW, or Stagecoach itself on SWT?
DfT are clearly not going to give Stagecoach (as lead franchisee on VTEC) any further leeway.
Virgin is in a slightly different position, as VTWC is doing fine and they only have 10% of VTEC.

 

[Domh245]

I would think that assessing a bid based on who is bidding is not only difficult to do until the very end, but would be of dubious legality. Certainly if Stagecoach were to take the government to court for "pushing them out of winning" if they'd submitted a fair bid, just because of this whole overbidding debacle, I don't think they'd have any difficulty winning their case.

 

[ainsworth74]

There is no legal grounds to exclude them, but that doesn't say that they can't be pushed out of winning.

Last time the DfT tried to do that to a company (Virgin) we got the West Coast fiasco...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I would think that assessing a bid based on who is bidding is not only difficult to do until the very end, but would be of dubious legality. Certainly if Stagecoach were to take the government to court for "pushing them out of winning" if they'd submitted a fair bid, just because of this whole overbidding debacle, I don't think they'd have any difficulty winning their case.

Stagecoach shareholders will have a view about whether they should "bid high" next time.
If Stagecoach was prepared to take risks last time, they won't next time.
One of the statements made in the HoC was that the £200m they have lost/will lose on VTEC wipes out all their profits from rail in the last 4 years.

 

[dk1]

Stagecoach shareholders will have a view about whether they should "bid high" next time.
If Stagecoach was prepared to take risks last time, they won't next time.
One of the statements made in the HoC was that the £200m they have lost/will lose on VTEC wipes out all their profits from rail in the last 4 years.

I've already lost a fair bit on them so looks like I'm 'holding' for the medium to long term lol.

 

[pt_mad]

The following is a Statement issued on VTWC's Media Centre at 18:03: https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/abou...of-passengers-on-its-west-coast-route-2142595

"Virgin Trains customers on the West Coast will see a significant improvement in on-board WiFi later this year. All 5656 Pendolino trains will undergo a refit which will vastly improve the on-board equipment, and allow free WiFi to be extended to all Pendolino customers.

The £7.5m investment is part of a new deal agreed with the Government, which will see Virgin Trains continue to run the West Coast franchise through to at least 31st March 2019, with the option for up to a further one-year extension at the Department for Transport’s discretion. The existing franchise expires on 31st March 2018, and the new contract will bridge the gap between the existing franchise and the new West Coast Partnership, due to start on 1st April 2019.

Installation of the WiFi upgrade is planned to begin on the Pendolino fleet from May 2018, with the work expected to be completed by January 2019, when free WiFi will be extended to all Pendolino customers. More than 85% of our customers travel on Pendolinos. In addition, the new technology is ‘future-proofed’ so it will work with 5G mobile phone networks as they come on stream and offer further speed improvements. The upgrade will also unlock the ability to offer more technology-led improvements in the future, all of which will increase customer satisfaction.

Welcoming the new deal, Phil Whittingham, Managing Director of Virgin Trains on the West Coast commented: “Virgin Trains has led the industry for more than two decades, and I’m delighted that we have secured a new contract to continue operating on the West Coast. The investment will see a big improvement in our on-board WiFi, and follows our industry-leading innovations such as automatic delay-repay and free films and TV on board via our Beam app.

“I’m pleased that we’ll be able to offer almost all of our customers access to the improved WiFi for free. We know WiFi is a top priority for our customers and I’m sure they’ll welcome the upgrades to both speed and availability.”

In addition to the WiFi improvements on board, Virgin Trains will also investigate eliminating ‘not-spots’, or places without mobile phone coverage, on parts of its network. The route taken by the west coast mainline sees a large number of these ‘not-spots’ as trains pass through cuttings and tunnels, and where there is no mobile phone coverage there is also no WiFi available. This work, together with the WiFi improvements, will allow customers to work more effectively on our trains, securing increased economic benefits for the UK.

Other initiatives included in the new contract are:

• All station ticket machines upgraded to accept contactless payment.
• More than £3m to improve station and on-board environments, including additional seating at stations and improved toilets, lighting and carpets on board.
• Additional staff at stations during busy times to improve accessibility.
• Better customer information during disruption through improved customer contact system.
• New apprenticeship opportunities, including for train driver roles.

The new contract will allow Virgin Trains to build on twenty years of success on the West Coast. Highlights include:

• Almost tripling journey numbers from 14m a year to more than 37m.
• Consistently topping the long distance franchised sector for passenger satisfaction
• Hitting record punctuality levels.
• Leading the industry with technology – automatic compensation for delays, free on board films and television programmes, and mticketing.
• Introducing services every twenty minutes between London and Birmingham / Manchester, and in the process virtually eliminating flights between Manchester and the capital.
• Paying nearly half a billion pounds (£476m) to taxpayers for the last three complete financial years."

Does a Pendolino 'refit which improves onboard equipment' mean a refit of interiors?

And it says improvements to station toilets, and lighting and carpets onboard.

Does that mean new lighting at stations or on the trains?
If on-board, hopefully upgrading to a more neutral ambient aircraft interior type lighting.

 

[All Line Rover]

If on-board, hopefully upgrading to a more neutral ambient aircraft interior type lighting.

Hopefully not. That picture you included above is exactly the sort of lighting I wouldn't want to see on Pendolinos - dingy seats but bright overhead.

 

[boxy321]

The loco hauled Chiltern trains have a similar scheme to that plane photo above: Harsh white lights and dull grey seats. Not my cup of tea.

Last night a pantograph failed at Marston Green and the pendolino cruised to a halt at Birmingham International with just the central aisle spot lights working. The concealed strip lights all went out, providing an excellent subdued mood, a bit like a long haul flight at night. This would be nice, with people using the reading lights as required, on a permanent basis in the evenings. Again, same as what aircraft have.

The seats (in 1st) are still OK. However, a lot of the arms rests are failing and the plastic tables are very worn, with chunks missing and them resembling a greasy spoon cafe. The rattling blinds drive me mad and the white clips at the bottom of the runners are mostly broken, which looks very tatty. The areas below the water fridges look rough too, and use up a lot of room where suitcases could go, despite seldom being used for the catering trollies.

 

[mrmartin]

Ridiculous this free wifi keeps on getting reannounced. Virgin said to me that it requires lineside upgrades. FoI to NR says there are no current plans to do lineside upgrades. Sigh.

 

[pt_mad]

The loco hauled Chiltern trains have a similar scheme to that plane photo above: Harsh white lights and dull grey seats. Not my cup of tea.

Last night a pantograph failed at Marston Green and the pendolino cruised to a halt at Birmingham International with just the central aisle spot lights working. The concealed strip lights all went out, providing an excellent subdued mood, a bit like a long haul flight at night. This would be nice, with people using the reading lights as required, on a permanent basis in the evenings. Again, same as what aircraft have.

The seats (in 1st) are still OK. However, a lot of the arms rests are failing and the plastic tables are very worn, with chunks missing and them resembling a greasy spoon cafe. The rattling blinds drive me mad and the white clips at the bottom of the runners are mostly broken, which looks very tatty. The areas below the water fridges look rough too, and use up a lot of room where suitcases could go, despite seldom being used for the catering trollies.

Bang on:

Pendolino lighting like this.

Well it says new lighting on the announcement.

Vs currently....(at the top)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Warm white LEDs are available. I have them throughout my house.

Chiltern used *cheap and nasty* white ones - worse by far than even quality cool white. The ambiance is like someone got a load of camping lights and installed those. Very poor.

The only good thing about those coaches is the legroom and window alignment. Bad seats, bad layout (commuters don't want near all facing, about half and half is better), drab interior scheme, bad lighting. The ex-ATW coach in the Banbury formation is much nicer.

 

[All Line Rover]

Vs currently....(at the top)

Yeah. You prefer the lighting in the second picture. We get it. Others don't. Some of us consider the lighting in the first picture to be among the nicest around.