1A85 18.10 BTN - VIC sent wrong way

[Tringonometry]

There's a story of a District driver who took the route towards Rayners Lane (that's a Piccadilly route); he never heard the end of it!

There was a (then) Silverlink Metro driver who was offered *and took* the right turn at Gunnersbury. What larks, Pip!

 

[Tringonometry]

Pretty sure I read on here a few months back that Virgin drivers are trained to take the Northampton loop rather than via. Weedon without questioning it with the signaller if routed that way?

That's correct. Same at Kings Norton, I think.

 

[Bromley boy]

I must say that it seems an unfortunate culture on the railways if people are disciplined heavily for what are genuine mistakes like this. A healthy management culture would involve people being able (and expected to ) learn from their mistakes rather than carrying it with them on their record. Apologies if I have mis-read it but it would seem to me that you people who work on the railway do the very best you can and mistakes are comparatively rare. They do of course happen.

Fully agreed.

Unfortunately the management culture on the railway is old fashioned, adversarial and not forward looking.

 

[AlterEgo]

Fully agreed.

Unfortunately the management culture on the railway is old fashioned, adversarial and not forward looking.

They could learn a lot from the aviation industry which has a very different approach to learning from cockups.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I bet the mess room banter lasts a while. Just like the “failed to stop” does for a driver. Oi Bill you sending that unit to Grantham instead of Lincoln again... (select stations of your choice)

Interested if you are sent on a different route (but valid) such as you are an express and you are put on the slow, would the driver expect to be told by signaller or just keep going?

I don't believe there is any such need to challenge going slow lines vice fast or vice versa; just keep going. Yours is not to reason why was how I was taught - as there's probably a reason!

In respect of something like Balcombe Tunnel Jn to Earlswood or even up via Redhill just get on with it. Virgin Trains drivers are also told not to even challenge being sent via Northampton in the middle of the day - again just go.

 

[Stampy]

There's a story of a District driver who took the route towards Rayners Lane (that's a Piccadilly route); he never heard the end of it!

That would have been the (in)famous "District Dave", sadly no longer with us....

http://www.districtdave.co.uk/html/confession_time.html

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I remember back in the 1990s, a Kings Cross arrival at Leeds being routed into platform 12 (this was pre-rebuild, so the current platform 15) which at the time wasn't electrified!

Not great for driver or signaller, but a young me quite enjoyed watching the 08 come down from Neville Hill to rescue the set!

 

[AlterEgo]

I remember back in the 1990s, a Kings Cross arrival at Leeds being routed into platform 12 (this was pre-rebuild, so the current platform 15) which at the time wasn't electrified!

Not great for driver or signaller, but a young me quite enjoyed watching the 08 come down from Neville Hill to rescue the set!

A Class 90 of VTWC once ended up at Llandudno Junction.

I’m sure someone here has the story. I think it was being trailed dead on the back of a train, and was then detached without thought of how it would get back.

 

[tsr]

On thameslink we have a few routes where it sates in the sectional apendix we do not need to challenge a route, unless booked to call at a station.

These include
blackfriars to bromley south via catford (can go via beckenham junction)
Purley to Gatwick via the quarry line (can go via redhill)
Victoria to brixton (can go via stewarts lane)
Tulse hill to east croydon via crystal palace (can go via selhurst)

Presumably you can also go from London Bridge to East or West Croydon via the Portsmouth Lines (the Dulwich route) if you sign it? I understand some TL drivers do. Southern services certainly can, providing no booked station calls are affected and crew knowledge is there.

 

[Geezertronic]

Was on a Birmingham bound train from Euston a while back that got sent down the Trent Valley at Rugby by mistake. An emergency brake application, driver comes walking through, reverses back into Rugby (P1 I think) then gets routed towards Coventry as normal. All took some time due to awaiting permission etc...

 

[theageofthetra]

Fully agreed.

Unfortunately the management culture on the railway is old fashioned, adversarial and not forward looking.

They need to learn a lot from the aviation world.

 

[theageofthetra]

That would have been the (in)famous "District Dave", sadly no longer with us....

http://www.districtdave.co.uk/html/confession_time.html

I hope it was noticed before he created the first convertible roofed District stock?

 

[tsr]

In respect of something like Balcombe Tunnel Jn to Earlswood or even up via Redhill just get on with it.

Well, you have to query the route if you are sent on the Fasts (or Quarry, depending on position) instead of the Slows and you want to stop anywhere in the Redhill area...

 

[infobleep]

I remember once being on a Virigin train that was sent down a close line to Euston. It was closed due t engineeeing works. They had to reopen it for us.

Another time a train to Gatwick from reading was sent, If my memory serves me correctly, along the up line towards Redhill. It had to be reversed.

I can't remember but that might have also been the time when they ran some replacement buses to cover this and one bus went missing. Thst might have been anorher occasion however.

 

[GB]

They need to learn a lot from the aviation world.

Such as?

 

[dk1]

Why are people blaming the driver for a train being routed the wrong way? Do train drivers set the points, signals etc etc or is that the job of the signaller?

Not true. It's a 50/50 responsibility.

 

[Mojo]

I hope it was noticed before he created the first convertible roofed District stock?

There’s no restrictions on taking surface stock down that branch and it used to happen every now and again. (In theory) it isn’t possible anymore for a district train to take the wrong signal at Hanger Lane Jn as the signal wont clear for anything longer than a 6 Car 73 Stock unless a plunger is operated. S7s do occasionally end up in Northfields depot though as District T/Ops take the wrong signal on top of the flyover at Acton.

Surface stock detectors exist on the Eastbound Fast at Barons Court and on the Westbound just after Hounslow Central though to stop surface stock being taken into Tube-gauge tunnels.

 

[GW43125]

That would have been the (in)famous "District Dave", sadly no longer with us....

http://www.districtdave.co.uk/html/confession_time.html

Reading through his website always makes me chuckle.

On another note, suppose a London-Glasgow express (1st stop Warrington) was routed via Birmingham rather than the Trent valley, would the driver question it?

Though I appreciate that if you’re doing 125 coming up to rugby, by the time you sight the PRI it’s far far far too late to do anything about it

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Last year, there was an AM Peak 12-coach 375 that was terminating at Blackfriars - one of the Southeastern peak services. They normally terminate in 3 or 4 as they are the bays, but on this particular morning, the train was routed into Platform 2. This is signalled as a bi-directional platform, but the preferred option for Northbound terminators is to run them empty to City Thameslink and turn them around there. As 375s are restricted north of Blackfriars, the only route was south. This wouldn't have been a problem, had the 700 sitting behind it not fouled the points on the approach to 2.

Because the 700 behind it had to reverse to Elephant, it ended up slowing down the Morning Peak by about 20 minutes. Apparently, the driver accepted it because, whilst it is an unusual route, the drivers are signed to use 1 and 2 - and could use them if, say, the points into 3 & 4 had seized-up or anything else that makes the bays inaccessible.

 

[daikilo]

Such as?

In the aviation world in some countries it is believed that owning up to a mistake which might otherwise be hidden could allow a warning of some sort to be issued or even a modification to aircraft or procedures to avoid it happening again. Of course, landing an aircraft like a 747 at the wrong airport would not fall into the "hidden" category, but it has happened.

 

[GB]

What incidents or mistakes on the railway are being hidden?

 

[Dieseldriver]

What incidents or mistakes on the railway are being hidden?

In fairness, although not full blown incidents I'm sure any Driver who had a lapse which resulted in them applying full service stopping just short of a red 'without incident' or just coming to a stand at the four car mark with an 8 car train then realising and taking power narrowly avoiding a stop short (insert many many scenarios here) wouldn't dream of owning up to it with their manager.
We all discuss such things amongst trusted colleagues bit other than that, the potential lessons that the industry could learn are wasted as people are too intimidated to admit they had the lapse in the first place.
One point I think the Railway industry could take note from the Aviation industry about is the standard of training/ongoing development for pilots as opposed to Train Drivers. I've always thought Driver training is particularly lacking.

 

[jizzer]

There is not much if anything that you can 'get away with' on the railway and i would say pretty much all SOL incidents are reported.
Social media has seen to that! If a driver had a fail to call and didn't report it and it ended up on twitter the driver would more than likely end up in a disciplinary situation. Drivers who have SOL incidents can end up in Development Plans depending on the TOC. The plan will be a result of the investigation in to the incident which will state the immediate and underlying cause of the incident to establish why it happened.

Development plans are not a punishment, they are there to help the driver learn from the incident and put things in place to prevent it happening again. If a driver continues to have a number of incidents it can result in the driver going to capability where it will be decided whether they are fit to continue in the role. This is after the coping strategies employed from development plans don't seem to have had an affect and the driver is still having incidents. Not many drivers end up in capability but the ones that do usually have a poor SOL record. What a manager has to consider is if this driver was continually put back driving after a number of incidents and then went on to have a major incident that resulted in loss of life the manager would be in the dock trying to justify the reasons why they continued to put the driver back driving after so many incidents.

The ratio of wrong routes taken is about 1 in 10 to wrong routes offered. i know one TOC that last year had about 200 wrong routes offered and as i've already mentioned is a massive problem for Network Rail at the moment.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I remember back in the 1990s, a Kings Cross arrival at Leeds being routed into platform 12 (this was pre-rebuild, so the current platform 15) which at the time wasn't electrified!

Not long after the East Grinstead line was electrified, a train heading to East Grinstead was offered the line to Uckfield and took it. By the time the driver realised they were off the third rail. Took a bit of time to recover it. The thumpers of the time could hardly drag themselves let alone an electric train!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I’ve always wondered what happens on the signaller’s side if they send a train the wrong way. Is it a full no tea and biscuits job?

I’ve had a couple now, thankfully realised in time, called the signaller and wait a couple of minutes for the interlocking to “time out” and the route to be put back correctly.

Out of interest, how can you tell which route you've been offered? Do the signals somehow indicate which way any points that you are approaching ahead have been set?

 

[Bromley boy]

Out of interest, how can you tell which route you've been offered? Do the signals somehow indicate which way any points that you are approaching ahead have been set?

Yes indeed there are junction indicators/theatre box indicators at junctions, and flashing aspects at certain locations to indicate the highest speed diverging route has been set at a forthcoming junction.

Junction indicators are numbered position 1 - 6 (1 and 2 are shown below) There are some locations where a wrong route can be as insidious as getting position indicator 1 instead of 2.

Theatre boxes will show a letter for a particular line “M” = main, “D” down, or a number for a platform etc.

The key thing is also remembering the last place you can be crossed over for certain destinations (eg the “last chance” crossing locations for Charing +/cannon st kept changing during the London Bridge works).

 

[GW43125]

Another good one was at Worting Jn (just west of Basingstoke) before the resignalling. Both the Southampton (electrified) and Salisbury (not electrified) routes were free greens at 90mph. If you were an electric and offered the route to Salisbury you had about 3 seconds from sighting the signal to smack the brake in or it’d be quite embarrassing.

Salisbury route is now flashing yellows since the resignalling

 

[Deafdoggie]

A Class 90 of VTWC once ended up at Llandudno Junction.

I’m sure someone here has the story. I think it was being trailed dead on the back of a train, and was then detached without thought of how it would get back.

Back in days of dragging Pendalinos, a MK3 set stood in. The procedure for 399’s was to have the 57 in platform 12 already, and just attach on arrival. The same thing happened with the MK3 set, everyone forgot to take the 90 off first though! It made it to Llandudno Junction before a signaller realised they weren’t cleared beyond Crewe!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes indeed there are junction indicators/theatre box indicators at junctions, and flashing aspects at certain locations to indicate the highest speed diverging route has been set at a forthcoming junction.

Junction indicators are numbered position 1 - 6 (1 and 2 are shown below) There are some locations where a wrong route can be as insidious as getting position indicator 1 instead of 2.

Theatre boxes will show a letter for a particular line “M” = main, “D” down, or a number for a platform etc.

The key thing is also remembering the last place you can be crossed over for certain destinations (eg the “last chance” crossing locations for Charing +/cannon st kept changing during the London Bridge works).

View attachment 42400

Thanks Bromley boy, that's interesting. Shows amongst other things that route knowledge is an even more tricky thing than I'd realised - even after reading previous threads here about the subject.

I'll be keeping an eye out now to see if I can spot signals that show route indicators

 

[A Challenge]

The start signal on the down Platform 2 at Brookwood (W189) flashes for Alton trains, though whether that count as much as a 'feather' indicator?