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The bus might just win out afterall...

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Dentonian

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I don't know where you live, but boy I'd love that sort of price! It's at least £25-28 down near me (Surrey and Oxfordshire) Given my mum had an automatic, learning to drive was excruciatingly expensive!

But speaking as a uni student, I think most of the reason that people haven't learnt to drive is they don't see the need. Whilst you're still at school, mum's taxi is often an option, and given most people live in urban areas one can cycle/walk where you're going. Also, at least amongst people I know the get up and go to get holiday/weekend jobs doesn't seem to be what it used to be. This means no one has the money to pay the exorbitant insurance prices.

Whilst at uni, no one wants a car in a city, and after people leave, most are going to cities, so still have no neeed.

I do wonder if it was a "special offer". It wasn't a well known name like BSM or AA. Obviously, L cars are everywhere but I do confess I haven't noticed overt advertising since. Your other circumstances are pertinent; back in the 70s/80s certainly up here in t'North, "Mum" didn't drive, let alone afford to have her own car. But then, amenities such as schools, shops, primary/secondary healthcare were much closer to home, so people could walk to them. Weekend jobs is an interesting one. My father worked all his (shortish) life, and my Mum worked before us kids came along. Once we grew up (mid 70s I would guess), she took as Saturday job before resuming full time work later still.
But its the Saturday job that is relevant here. In those days it was common for both back to work Mums and school leavers to work in shops from 9-5 on Saturdays. Now, I don't know how true this was elsewhere, but apart from early morning, evening and Sundays, the other significant reduction in bus services came on Saturdays at precisley the time shop workers (and keen shoppers) would be travelling. Our then local route (which just happened to be the most profitable in what is now Stagecoach Manchester territory) stepped up to a 10 minute service way before 0900 and only dropped off at around 1800. Soon after de-reg, it was down to a 30 minute service, albeit the late afternoon/evening service was restored to every 15 mins in the 1990s.
 

Starmill

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Many young people have migrated to major cities, especially London and Manchester, meaning car use is less necessary or even impossible. But buses outside London do not seem to be picking up much business from this unexpected pool of captive users.
The quality of bus services outside of London, Brighton, Nottingham, Reading or Edinburgh is so bad that it puts me off using them severely.

Even if the services were reliable (they aren't) and live departure information were provided (it isn't) and journey times were the best achievable through the most basic bus priority and stopping patterns (don't make me laugh!), I still wouldn't want to use them where only coins are accepted as payment. Even more crazy is where only coins to an exact fare which is not easy to determine is accepted. The entire bus industry suffers from the uncertainty this creates. Sure, the bus might accept contactless (which has started to happen only 10 years after contactless cards were introduced in this country - wow eh). The driver might give change. But unless you know, you're going to be put off.
 
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Dentonian

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Not having a car is rubbish. There are so many problems and compromises that result, and the price of travel by public transport is often very poor value for money - this applies both to local jounrney and long-distance travel. The key reason I do not drive is because I'm concerned about the very high levels of air pollution in urban neighborhoods, including the one I live in, and because apart from flying, driving is one of the worst things you can do to increase your atmospheric carbon emissions. We are committed to these aims as a country and I firmly believe it's important I should play my part.

We are up against it though. Government policy is not at all going in our favour. We are hit with super-inflationary price rises all the time, sometimes huge ones. I am not saying nobody should ever drive or fly - that would be ridiculous. I often get lifts to places because public transport is simply nonexistent. But it is good to really consider if you can use alternatives to these two modes every time you make a journey. Even though I am unhappy at the ripoff prices for those of us who are trying to do the 'right thing', there are benefits. Time spent on trains and buses can be used to read, or relax and enjoy the view, while long hours spent driving are not good for your health. I apologise to those of you who think I'm a broken record at this point, but I would like to see changes to government policy that make flying and driving more expensive and travel by bus and train considerably cheaper.

Can't disagree at all regarding land transport, and the point is the gap in terms of time and cost between car and bus (and local rail) has become a chasm since the 1980s. Longer distance travel is a bit different. Bearing in mind on-line check in, I can fly from Manchester to Amsterdam (runway to runway) in 50 minutes and in some circumstances for less than £100. If I were to do it by rail - based on a genuine comparison I did a couple of Summers ago), it would take up to 8 times as long and cost between 60% and 130% more! Obviously, if travelling from London, the time penalty is nowhere near as bad, but I'm guessing there will still be a cost penalty as air fares are usually more competitive down there - at least on European flights.

Or to put it another way, 19th century man has invented realistic alternatives to private transport for short/medium journeys; 20th/21st century man (especially politicians) have sought to destroy them. Man has not invented realistic alternatives to aircraft to travel long distances. Any Japanese reading this are entitled to contradict me, but for us to adopt "bullet trains" would bankrupt the nation now.
 

Bletchleyite

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Uber pricing is an interesting one. The private hire companies in MK are much cheaper, and have been in business for ages. The black cabs are an irrelevance to most (and because of poor behaviour deserve to be).
 

Starmill

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It is in MK. I am no defender of Arriva MK, it is pretty poor. But RTPI is available in far more places than those you listed.
Case in point. I didn't know that. If I needed to go somewhere in MK, a place I've never explored, I would not know that live departure information might be available. So I would be strongly put off from trying even though some investment has taken place. T I don't know any routes, timetables or fares and I would be concerned that it would be an awful lot of legwork to find all of these things out. Of course, this forum can usually answer any and all such questions of public transport but it needs to be at the click of a button to incentivese most people to bother.
 

Robertj21a

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It is in MK. I am no defender of Arriva MK, it is pretty poor. But RTPI is available in far more places than those you listed.

The Arriva app has given real time bus data, maps etc all over the UK for some years now.
 

Dentonian

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Driverless buses should be cheaper than driverless taxis, but I would expect driverless taxis to be considerably cheaper than buses are today. The fixed costs of a driverless taxi would be shared among all users so the fare should be little more than the cost of fuel. Driverless taxis would probably be sufficiently cheap that most people won't care about getting a cheaper fare on a driverless bus, unless road pricing or similar is imposed.

Presumably driverless taxis would need road pricing as fleets of full size saloons carrying even 5 pax would take up far more space than a 10 metre long double-decker carrying 50 to 90 pax. On the other hand, if uber drivers were replaced by AI, would they be programmed not to park on cycle lanes/bus stops/roadwork narrowed road junctions? I ask because, around 1320 today I saw EXACTLY that; an uber taxi parked on the cycle lane on Store Street (under M'cr Piccadilly Station), it then came out of Store Street, "cruised" to London Rd/Fairfield junction; stopped, let a passenger out on the junction including taking time to remove luggage from the boot, before turning left onto Fairfield Street and stopping on the 219 bus stop. Of course, a 219 just happened to becoming along and the driver had to pick up around 10 pax in the middle of the road, not only because this uber taxi was parked alongside the shelter, but another private hire taxi was parked right on the bus stop flag, so she couldn't pull up beyond the stop to avoiding holding up the traffic.
 

Bletchleyite

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The Arriva app has given real time bus data, maps etc all over the UK for some years now.

Indeed, plus MK has quite good coverage of stop displays. But I find the app very useful, means you can time leaving home much more precisely, meaning a journey time gain which helps against the car.

Though there is an irritating bug which means a bus shows as on time leaving a terminus if it hasn’t yet left...
 

Dentonian

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The key change is in persons using their own cars to get to work (and too in the course of their work). Formerly - certainly up to the 1990s - as families became more affluent, so they were more inclined to drive to work (and less inclined to use public transport). But in the 2011 census we find the opposite overall; the more affluent a family, the less inclined their members are to drive to work themselves - and the more likely they are to choose to commute by bike, rail or tram - though the most affluent tend rather to work from home if they can. This change far from uniform though. In London and the South of England it is very strongly present; but in the North East and North West (outside Manchester) the former pattern is still found. This does not mean that more affluent households do not have cars - rather that they see their cars as 'domestic' and 'family' assets; not as 'employment' assets. Moreover, over time this changes the nature of drivers expectations of 'normal' road use; people who are using their cars to get to work want the roads to be cleared for priority travel through a locality as fast as possible; whereas people who are using cars for family purposes prefer slower roads that you can stop along easily to pick people up; and park easily to access the local area. Hence local road traffic in peak periods is becoming steadily slower (which does bus operators no favours at all).

What is not apparent in the 2011 census, is any overall increase in consequent use of buses. Car commuting now appears to included large numbers of reluctant drivers; who would switch to an alternative mode of travel if there was one available and acceptable. But so far the general configuration of bus services does not meet these users' standards. Hence the need for investment in forms of enhanced bus provision that these reluctant drivers will switch to. A problem being that these same 'enhancements' are very often characteristics that existing regular bus users do not value - wider stop spacings, off-bus ticketing, integration with other transport modes.

It makes sense that more affluent families will vary their modes, because the high cost of doing this is less relevant to them.
As regards "enhancements", it depends on how much wider stop spacings should be. In suburbs, I would guess the current average is about 250 metres. That could probably be increased to 350-400 metres which would mean an extra minute's walking time (possibly more for the elderly or those returning from the Supermarket). That should be considered. What will not work is having to walk an extra 400-750 metres to catch a Tram or 1250+ metres* to catch a train, especially if those journey additions are being undertaken 400-500 times a year. We've already discussed off-bus ticketing - I did see a driver struggling for some time to get a M-ticket to register on a Stagecoach bus the other day, but if fare penalties are removed, the key problem with integration will simply be changing vehicles (even if both are buses) due to poor punctuality, yet more walking (often across major road junctions) and poor waiting environments.

FTR, Bus use in GM was 224 million in 2010/1 and 201.6 in 2016/7. It is expected to drop below 200 million in 2017/8.

* last figures I saw the average UK distance from home to regularly served (at least 12 times a day on a weekday) bus stop was 400 metres, and the average to a railhead was 2.7km.
 

Bletchleyite

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Presumably driverless taxis would need road pricing as fleets of full size saloons carrying even 5 pax would take up far more space than a 10 metre long double-decker carrying 50 to 90 pax. On the other hand, if uber drivers were replaced by AI, would they be programmed not to park on cycle lanes/bus stops/roadwork narrowed road junctions? I ask because, around 1320 today I saw EXACTLY that; an uber taxi parked on the cycle lane on Store Street (under M'cr Piccadilly Station), it then came out of Store Street, "cruised" to London Rd/Fairfield junction; stopped, let a passenger out on the junction including taking time to remove luggage from the boot, before turning left onto Fairfield Street and stopping on the 219 bus stop. Of course, a 219 just happened to becoming along and the driver had to pick up around 10 pax in the middle of the road, not only because this uber taxi was parked alongside the shelter, but another private hire taxi was parked right on the bus stop flag, so she couldn't pull up beyond the stop to avoiding holding up the traffic.

That's quite surprising. My experience is that when a bus sees a car in a bus stop around here, they go right up to its tail and lean on the horn until it moves.

Re your comment about bus stop spacing, in most other European countries it is *at least* 500m, often as much as 1km. The difference to the speed of operation this makes is significant.
 

Starmill

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That's quite surprising. My experience is that when a bus sees a car in a bus stop around here, they go right up to its tail and lean on the horn until it moves.
Mine is usually that the bus driver stops with the doors in front of the car, letting people off the bus in front of a car that could move forward either because the driver is not looking or because it's shunted forward by another collision. Ditto letting people off the bus between parked cars.

From my experience of buses in Greater Manchester, the journey takes absolutely forever, even in the areas with "bus priority" such as the Oxford Road corridor, because of the amount of time choosing a ticket and counting change takes, and also because driver changes are entirely unpredictable and can take several minutes while the drivers have a chat. Parked cars, bad driving (illegal turns and whatnot) and abuse of bus lanes also seem to play a part.
 

jon0844

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The trouble is that if you are doing a "lower paid less secure" job you really do need a car because you don't know where the next gig is going to be.

I agree with Non Multi that the killer is insurance. My mother wanted to make my duaghter a present of a car when she was 18, I had a devil of a job trying to get her to understand that she would be handing her a huge debt rather than an asset.

Sadly a lot of workers, not getting paid that much and possibly young (so at the mercy of insurance companies) do indeed need a car for a lot of jobs if living outside of London where there are unlikely many late trains and certainly no night buses (perhaps even buses running no later than 7pm and no earlier than 7 or 8am).

And one home delivery supermarket, which I won't mention (but part of the name rhymes with car!) seems to find that if it wishes to get rid of people, it moves them on to shifts where there are no buses and you either need to get a car, or pay for taxis (and surely a taxi is going to wipe out your pay for that shift). Get a few strikes because you can't make it in, and bye bye.

It's fine for people who live within walking distance but you can't exactly expect to get a job on your doorstep these days.
 

radamfi

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Re your comment about bus stop spacing, in most other European countries it is *at least* 500m, often as much as 1km. The difference to the speed of operation this makes is significant.

As is often the case, Britain lies between the US and mainland Europe. In US cities, bus stops can be as close as every 200 metres or even less. There seems to be a correlation between the status of the bus within society and the average distance between bus stops.
 

Robertj21a

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Indeed, plus MK has quite good coverage of stop displays. But I find the app very useful, means you can time leaving home much more precisely, meaning a journey time gain which helps against the car.

Though there is an irritating bug which means a bus shows as on time leaving a terminus if it hasn’t yet left...

Not sure, but I think that may be because you have it set for predictive times - I use (I think!) the last time it was reported.
 

SEClass375

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Real Time Passenger Info or not, a late bus is a late bus. And in Tunbridge Wells and Tonbridge, most buses are late buses. From where I live, it is much easier and quicker to drive rather than catch the bus. They have done some road improvements that make getting into town and school much quicker however the buses don't go that way. By bus it took at least 45 minutes to get to school and 1 hour to get back. With the car, it is 15 minutes each way.
 

Robertj21a

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Where is that setting made? I can't see it anywhere in the app (on iOS).

On my Android it's under 'Live Map' - 'Live Map Settings' - 'Live Buses' - Live Bus locations' - then choose either 'Last known location'' or 'Predicted current location'.
 

Dentonian

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That's quite surprising. My experience is that when a bus sees a car in a bus stop around here, they go right up to its tail and lean on the horn until it moves.

Re your comment about bus stop spacing, in most other European countries it is *at least* 500m, often as much as 1km. The difference to the speed of operation this makes is significant.


Unfortunately for passengers, Stagecoach drivers in particular seem to take "defensive driving" too literally. It is very rare for any bus driver to get into conflict with other road users.

I'm trying to think back to when I have travelled on buses in Europe in the last decade or so and remembering distances between stops. The clearest notion I have - mainly because I was looking out for my alighting stop was out to the rural west (and well heeled) of Stockholm. Even there, I don't think stops were much more than 500 metres apart, so I would doubt many urban/suburban stops in densely populated conurbations would be anywhere near 1 kilometre. Remember, you would have to add on walking distance from home to the bus route (I'm 400 metres from one main road and about 700 metres from another), so coming out half way between stops a kilometre apart could easily mean a kilometre plus in total each way to access buses.
I don't want to get into a debate about poverty, lifestyles (especially as someone with serious health problems despite a reasonable lifestyle in terms of what can/can't be accessed food wise - and I have never actively smoked any substance in my life!), creaking NHS, criminality and even climate (statistically, it rains much more in eastern GM than in western GM), but undertaking such walks 400-500 times a year can be very unattractive, and will drive (if you pardon the pun) people into cars, just as Metrolink replacing buses will do.
As regards speed, even for those capable of the longer walks, the time penalty would mean there would have to be a significant advantage. Even though the train I normally catch into Manchester is non-stop in terms of picking up passengers, the longer walk at both ends, signal delays and platform restrictions mean it is often quicker by bus off-peak depending on traffic lights en route.
 

Dentonian

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As is often the case, Britain lies between the US and mainland Europe. In US cities, bus stops can be as close as every 200 metres or even less. There seems to be a correlation between the status of the bus within society and the average distance between bus stops.

Yes, since being ill and noting the contempt for DDA, I have noticed that physical illness/weakness very much translates as "the dregs of society" in this country. Albeit, there is a particular group of people that this applies to mostly....................
 

Dentonian

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Mine is usually that the bus driver stops with the doors in front of the car, letting people off the bus in front of a car that could move forward either because the driver is not looking or because it's shunted forward by another collision. Ditto letting people off the bus between parked cars.

From my experience of buses in Greater Manchester, the journey takes absolutely forever, even in the areas with "bus priority" such as the Oxford Road corridor, because of the amount of time choosing a ticket and counting change takes, and also because driver changes are entirely unpredictable and can take several minutes while the drivers have a chat. Parked cars, bad driving (illegal turns and whatnot) and abuse of bus lanes also seem to play a part.

Obviously, picking up and dropping off in the middle of he road is somewhat dangerous to certain sections of he population, and as I've said before, there must be a link between the fact that where I used to live, Stagecoach had converted virtually all services to low floor by 2001/2, but not once did I ever see a wheelchair user on the bus until it entered other boroughs, until I left the area in July 2006.

Oxford Road is probably an extreme because they are not genuine bus priorities and as a regular visitor to the MRI, I have noticed that off-peak buses back into Manchester are considerably slower now than when I first took ill in 2013. The myriad of tickets and poor fares should not be an excuse for banning cash fares, but it does highlight he need for a much simpler structure and integrated given that many Outpatients especially have travelled into the city by other companies or other modes. Ironically, the recent fares hike has taken Stagecoach's Megarider to a nice round £15, but presumably the vast majority of passengers on Oxford Road will have much cheaper equivalents that might not be so easy to give change for.
The driver changes being "unpredictable" with drivers wasting time chatting slightly confuses me, but I assume you travel mainly/solely on First buses based at Rusholme. As regards Stagecoach, most of their services run on/off at one end of the route or the other, with the 43 being the main exception, changing drivers near Sharston depot - way beyond the main University corridor. There are no facilities to change drivers in Piccadilly, although in emergencies, they may be drive in from the respective depots.
What I *have* noticed as a regular user of Hyde Road depot buses passing the depot, is that the delay is not drivers chatting, it is taking a considerable time (typically 3-4 minutes) programming the ticket machine. This is a fairly recent development, so I assume the machines have been changed.
You are completely right about bad driving and illegal turns, as my brother crosses Oxford Road daily and he says that illegal driving (turning left out of right hand lanes, speeding, blocking junctions etc) is the norm on Booth Street West/East and other nearby roads. I believe there should have been a reduction in this along Oxford Road itself, as both the Bus Operators and TFGM have (reportedly) vociferously condemned Manchester City Council on their lack of enforcement. Unfortunately, Portland Street remains an utter joke, though.
 

philthetube

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Based on depreciation, fuel, maintenance , road tax and insurance costs over 12,000 miles per year I would think it costs me 75p a mile to drive
Bargain, it costs me £4.50 for my four mile journey to work if I use the bus, and a different operator runs the evening service so no day tickets/returns available.
 

gazthomas

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Bargain, it costs me £4.50 for my four mile journey to work if I use the bus, and a different operator runs the evening service so no day tickets/returns available.
That’s really unfortunate too. I only have a car as public transport can’t get me from “A” to “B”. If my destination was in London life might be easier
 

Starmill

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Rusholme depot is the one, Dentonian. You got it.

I'm quite sure you're correct and that isn't a common problem on other companies or routes. But in order to be sure of that I'd have to know where the driver changeovers are... which obviously isn't generally public information. Changeovers part way through a journey are far from ideal.
 

PermitToTravel

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Might be better if Rusholme changeovers could be slightly better coordinated... have the relieving driver arrive before the bus, for example...

Stagecoach always manage this fine at Deansgate or Velopark, and usually do it well outside Hyde Road too
 

nerd

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Presumably driverless taxis would need road pricing as fleets of full size saloons carrying even 5 pax would take up far more space than a 10 metre long double-decker carrying 50 to 90 pax. On the other hand, if uber drivers were replaced by AI, would they be programmed not to park on cycle lanes/bus stops/roadwork narrowed road junctions? I ask because, around 1320 today I saw EXACTLY that; an uber taxi parked on the cycle lane on Store Street (under M'cr Piccadilly Station), it then came out of Store Street, "cruised" to London Rd/Fairfield junction; stopped, let a passenger out on the junction including taking time to remove luggage from the boot, before turning left onto Fairfield Street and stopping on the 219 bus stop. Of course, a 219 just happened to becoming along and the driver had to pick up around 10 pax in the middle of the road, not only because this uber taxi was parked alongside the shelter, but another private hire taxi was parked right on the bus stop flag, so she couldn't pull up beyond the stop to avoiding holding up the traffic.

Good points Dentonian; my view is that tricky issue with driverless technology will be whether the same roadspace can be shared by driven and driverless vehicles; since the drivers of the driven vehicles - especiall in the case of Uber-type cars - may tend systematically to exploit the safety features of driverless cars to assert priority at road junctions. If so, riding in a driverless car would consist of a series of emergency stops; as manually-driven cars continually pull out of side roads, overtake and cut in, turn right across the traffic stream, and do U turns in the middle of the road. Much urban driving is 'give-and-take'; but having vehicles pre-progarmmed only to 'give' may well result in counterpart manual drivers adopting n 'only take' approach when in the presence of a driverless vehicle. Which in turn implies more rigorous enforcement of road traffic lawsl; or otherwise simply banning uber cars altogether from urban areas where driverless taxi services have been implemented. In my view, these issues would be much less problematic if only bus services are driverless. Designated bus routes can be supervised throughout with CCYV; so that dangerous behaviours from manual drivers can be detected and punished.

All of which is a special case of the general principles for the economic and functionality of driverless vehicles. Much of the more extravagant claims of proponents of driverless technology rest on confusing these underlying principles.

Commentators talk about the five stages of autonomous functions in road vehicles (though confusingly there are actually six).

stage 0: the standard car with no specialised autonomous functions;

stage 1: autonomy in particular individual processes or actions; e.g. cruise control, ABS braking, parking sensors;

stage 2: autonomous capability for complete funcitons involving multiple processes; e.g automatic parking, automatic emergency stopping;

stage 3: fully autonomous, hands-off capability for most trips in their entirety; but requiring manual control as a continuous back-up for occasions that the autonomous control technology is incapable of dealing with.

stage 4: fully autonomous, hands-off capability for the entirety of every trip within the 'Operational Design Domain' of the technology. Maybe; only along certain roads; only in the absence of severe weather; only as directed by permanent road signs and signals (hence lacking the capability of responding to contrary verbal instructions from a designated police officer or traffic official; with the necessary additional capability of distinguishing such designated persons from bystanders)

stage 5: fully autonomous, hands-off capabilty for any trip within the region of coverage; in all domains and in all circumstances where a manual control vehicle would be capable of functioning. At stage 5 - and only at stage 5 - driverless vehicles are produced without manual controls, even for backup.

The inescapable factor determining the economics and potential of driverless technology, is that while the big step-up in functioning is from stage 3 to stage 4; the big step-up in technology and cost is from stage 4 to stage 5. Most commentators now accept that stage 3 functioning is so potentially hazardous that it is likely to be legally banned. A stage 3 'driverless' technology that hands itself back to manual control at exactly the moment when driving attention and skill is most needed, is likely worse than useless. But in technological terms; stage 4 operation is simply stage 3 operation with all the bugs removed; and the predictable hazards fully accommodated in advance. It is universally agreed that almost no features of stage 4 tecnology could be re-used for stage 5 operation. Consequently, almost all current investment programmes are only directed to achieve stage 4 funtioning; with the unspoken assumption that stage 5 will be unachievable (or if not, will be legally inhibited; so that those investiing in stage 4 technology will be protected from losing their investment).

But the key to stage 4 is the prior identification of the 'Operational Design Domain'. In practice this will mean that only some roads on the network will be legally capable of driverless operation; your driverless taxi will take you from door to door along these roads; but beyond them, you will need to use a driven vehicle (or walk). Maintaining a road within the Operational Design Domain will be costly - Google resurvey every road they drive down every day with manually driven vehicles, and it is not unlikely that will be the legal minimum. Which is one reason why driverless buses are likely to be favoured economically over driverless taxis; it is much easier and cheaper to maintain the city bus routes (several hundred miles perhaps) rather than an entire city road network (tens of thousands of miles).

In all of this the issue or marginal costs and benefits will be key; will it be worth the extra cost of maintaining an entire city road network in the ODD, for the additonal functionality provided by driverless taxis? will it be worth the massive technological cost upgrade of moving from stage 4 to stage 5 operation; simply for the occasional additonal functionality of driverless trips in thick snow (say); or down a dirt track?
 
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175mph

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I'm 25, and only just plan to take driving lessons this year, kind of as a final straw tactic after the too often shockingly bad experiences I've had using the Scunthorpe town buses.

I often need to go to Hull, so use the 350 route, and may continue to use that bus route after getting a car, but the local routes in my home town, not so much anymore.
 

Tetchytyke

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On my Android it's under 'Live Map' - 'Live Map Settings' - 'Live Buses' - Live Bus locations' - then choose either 'Last known location'' or 'Predicted current location'.

I learn something new every day! I always just assumed that it defaulted to timetable if the bus hadn't been reported, which was always annoying if the bus had been cancelled.

As for the OP, it really does depend on where you live as to how essential a car is. When I lived in London the thought of having a car never even entered my head, because driving in London is such a thoroughly unpleasant experience. I had a PAYG Zipcar subscription for the rare times I needed a big supermarket shop or trip to IKEA, although even then I often used a minicab instead.

When I moved out to Hemel Hempstead with my girlfriend, though, her car was essential. She worked in Amersham and couldn't realistically get to or from work by bus. We could take a bus from our house to the town centre, but the cinema and restauarants development only had a bus service between 10am-3pm (i.e. when the bus wasn't needed for schools). Other than a couple of peak-time buses, there was no service to the railway station, even though we were only a mile from it and could see it from our street. Fine as I'm fit and healthy and walked it, but not so good for our 78-year-old neighbour.

In Newcastle I lived on the outskirts and the bus service was usually sufficient, with a bus every 10 minutes and reasonable fares, including buses to the retail parks. I didn't have a car and rarely needed one. Although Stagecoach have just taken a chainsaw to the PVR, so I'm not so sure the bus would be as convenient now. Living now in North Tyneside it's a bit different again: we have the Metro close by for trips to town and to the Coast, but the bus services are generally poor (partly because of the Metro, I think), especially to the out-of-town retail parks. My (now) wife works slightly away from a Metro line and there's no way she could get to work by bus, even though she works about three miles away. Needless to say, traffic in North Tyneside is appalling. I live near Cobalt and it can take ten minutes to get to the end of my street in rush hour, because of the volume of Cobalt traffic overwhelming the road network.
 

Bletchleyite

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Now that's poor design, hiding settings away like that!

Mine was already on last known location. However, it seems to be the case that, where an inbound bus is linked to an outbound one and there is a delay, the system assumes it will leave the terminus after precisely that delay (and not, for example, allow the driver his break, to use the loo or whatever). It then appears to move as far as the first stop, upon "reaching" which it then shows as back at the terminus, and repeat ad infinitum until it actually departs.

Really annoying little bug for those who live near a terminus.

Having said that, even with that it really is a "killer app" and saves about 5-10 minutes off each journey on an infrequent route by allowing one to leave home at a more precise time and not have to reach the stop early just in case the bus is early.
 
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