Break of Journey or not?

[Gareth Marston]

I sold a customer a Off Peak Return from Flint to Euston. Hes been in today and was sold an Anytime Single by the VTWC Conductor at Chester. He joined the Virgin service at Chester the 0835 having traveled from Flint on the 0800 ATW service. He got to Flint early intending to catch the 0817 VTWC service (0835 from Chester) it was raining and he fancied staying dry and getting a coffee.

Has he broke his journey or merely changed trains?

The Off Peak Return from Flint is valid on the 0817 from Flint but no break of journey on outward portion is allowed on restriction code VK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is a change of trains not a break of journey.

 

[gray1404]

Changing trains is definitely NOT a break of journey. He should not have been sold a new ticket and I think a certain guard is going to be in serious trouble here. The customer was quite entitled to do what they did. Breach of contract by Virgin.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see this one is a bit like Lancaster, and suspect the guard thought the OP had in fact started from Chester. But had he really believed that, an Anytime *from Chester* would have been correct.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Changing trains is definitely NOT a break of journey. He should not have been sold a new ticket and I think a certain guard is going to be in serious trouble here. The customer was quite entitled to do what they did. Breach of contract by Virgin.

Just to add that I am only going on his say so - not having been there myself!

Interestingly STAR and Trainline won't let you select joining the 0800 ATW as a valid journey yet other trains on the day have the same restriction code and can involve changes of train at Chester and Crewe.

 

[gray1404]

Personality I would refused to pay anything further as the correct fare for the journey being made had already been paid. Did your customer say if they are going to complain?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just to add that I am only going on his say so - not having been there myself!

Interestingly STAR and Trainline won't let you select joining the 0800 ATW as a valid journey yet other trains on the day have the same restriction code and can involve changes of train at Chester and Crewe.

Trains don't have restrictions, tickets do. Though depending on the wording it could be that starting early is not allowed, this one doesn't seem to suggest that as it's based on arrival at Euston.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I see this one is a bit like Lancaster, and suspect the guard thought the OP had in fact started from Chester. But had he really believed that, an Anytime *from Chester* would have been correct.

Taking his word he's not done anything wrong and I have advised him to complain and ask for the money back and pointed him to relevant bits of conditions of carriage. His girlfriend was arriving in Euston @ 1013 from Newtown so he wAnted to be there and does not have knowledge of ticketing so paid up.

The conductor apparently had a rant about ATW staff issuing incorrect tickets on Virgin services. Not over impressed as you can imagine!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Trains don't have restrictions, tickets do. Though depending on the wording it could be that starting early is not allowed, this one doesn't seem to suggest that as it's based on arrival at Euston.

There's no fixed time or train so you can't start early on a VK off peak return.

 

[yorkie]

The ticket was valid. If it was not valid, the correct action would have been to excess it, not charge a new ticket.

The conductor apparently had a rant about ATW staff issuing incorrect tickets on Virgin services. Not over impressed as you can imagine!

There are some Virgin Guards who act like this. They're completely in the wrong. Sadly the company is spineless and does not appear to properly discipline them, so they continue.

It appears to be more common on the West Coast than the East Coast.

Virgin Trains is a rotten company; they have mistreated customers in numerous instances that I am aware of. I dread to think how many victims don't come forward whom we do not know about. It's scandalous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's no fixed time or train so you can't start early on a VK off peak return.

VK says:

Restriction Code: VK

The following details applies
to current travel only.

APPLICABLE DAYS

Mondays to Fridays

OUTWARD TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to
arrive:
London Euston after 04:29
until 10:25;
Milton Keynes Central after
04:29 until 10:00;
Watford Junction after 04:29
until 10:20;
Reading before 09:40;
London Marylebone after 04:29
until 10:25;
London Paddington before
10:10;
Break of journey is not
permitted.

For travel on CrossCountry
services use 2V.

RETURN TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to
depart:
London Euston after 04:29
until 09:05 but not valid on
the 16:10 departure;
Milton Keynes Central after
04:29 until 09:05;
Watford Junction after 04:29
until 09:00;
Reading before 08:35 and after
17:10 until 19:01;
London Marylebone after 04:29
until 09:05;
London Paddington before 08:10
and after 16:40 until 18:31.

For travel on CrossCountry
services use 2V.

SEASONAL VARIATIONS

Restrictions are lifted from
midday on Friday 22nd December
until Monday 1st January
(inclusive)

For full restriction details
and all T&Cs, see
www.nationalrail.co.uk

Powered by National Rail
Enquiries

That being the case, no ATW train from Flint is timed to arrive at any of those stations at any time, therefore any ATW train from Flint is valid. And nothing is said about where any VT that does not arrive at any of those stations at the specified times is boarded.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Afternoon Gareth

Just wanted to say a big thank you for going above and beyond in giving me the evidence to raise my case...it is greatly appreciated.

After 2 painful days of getting nowhere trying to discuss the situation with the Virgin customer service staff (who unfortunately dont have a full grasp of the English language) ive gone down the email route.

Will keep you posted on the outcome.

Thank you again.

C

Will update once i have more.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've done that precise thing - 0800 from Flint, change into 0835 VT at Chester, on a VK-validity ticket (arriving after 1000 into Euston).
I've also changed at Crewe into a later ex-Manchester Pendolino (but still arriving in Euston before the 2C 1129 restriction).
Never had any problems.
It's really irritating if the conductors on the one route which has VK restrictions do not know how the restrictions work.
They are normally local (often Welsh) staff and are well aware of the ticketing.

I've even used this ticket to travel via Birmingham to Paddington, where unfortunately you get caught by the XC 2V restriction (after 0930 from Birmingham), but it's perfectly valid earlier than this from Flint to Birmingham on any operator/train.

 

[Starmill]

Did the customer have a ticket from Flint to London? Yes.
Did the customer travel from Flint to London? Yes.
Was the ticket valid at that time of day? Yes.

Easy. Shame a VT guard couldn't work it out...

I see this one is a bit like Lancaster, and suspect the guard thought the OP had in fact started from Chester. But had he really believed that, an Anytime *from Chester* would have been correct.

Quite. Also, for this to be true, the guard would have had to claim that they thought the customer had bought a ticket from Flint and actually started their journey at Chester. A potentially risky claim to make.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Did the customer have a ticket from Flint to London? Yes.
Did the customer travel from Flint to London? Yes.
Was the ticket valid at that time of day? Yes.

Easy. Shame a VT guard couldn't work it out...


Quite. Also, for this to be true, the guard would have had to claim that they thought the customer had bought a ticket from Flint and actually started their journey at Chester. A potentially risky claim to make.

Customer bought the ticket in Newtown (Powys) off the STAR machine there. One wonders if this conductor automatically assumed the customer was trying to pull a fast one because the ticket was not issued at Flint.

 

[gray1404]

How easy would it be for the Train Manager to tell that the ticket was not purchased at Flint? They would, I assume, be able to see the date and time it was printed.

It sounds like the assumed the customer actually started their journey at Chester, rather then Flint, solely on the unfounded basis that they boarded a service at Chester.

 

[Gareth Marston]

How easy would it be for the Train Manager to tell that the ticket was not purchased at Flint? They would, I assume, be able to see the date and time it was printed.

It sounds like the assumed the customer actually started their journey at Chester, rather then Flint, solely on the unfounded basis that they boarded a service at Chester.

All orange tickets have the location code of the booking office/TVM that they were printed out of on them. A Flint to Euston Off Peak Return printed out of one of Chester's TVM's might be an indication of something fishy or it could be someone who works in Chester and lives in Wales collecting the tickets they bought online at lunchtime.....

 

[waynemorrell]

All orange tickets hav the location code of the booking office/TVM that they were printed out of on them. A Flint to Euston Off Peak Return printed out of one of Chester's TVM's might be an indication of something fishy or it could be someone who works in Chester and lives in Wales collecting the tickets they bought online at lunchtime.....

Hi,

Which bit of the ticket shows the location code? I have attached a couple of different tickets as an example. And is there a list of these locations available anywhere ?

 

[bb21]

Top one 2451
Bottom one 3560

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are no barriers at Flint, and probably no check/markup by ATW on the train to Chester, and there is no paid car park.
The barriers at Chester (to reach Costa) may or may not have been working, but ought to have flagged up a break of journey if made.
VT ticket checks are sometimes made between Chester and Crewe, but often they leave it till after departure from Crewe.
Perhaps the ticket had Newtown as issuing station, suggesting travel via Wrexham which does not have a VK easement.
It would be quite difficult to "prove" he started the journey at Flint.

 

[Bletchleyite]

He does not need to prove that. VT need to prove he did not.

 

[AlterEgo]

I see this one is a bit like Lancaster, and suspect the guard thought the OP had in fact started from Chester. But had he really believed that, an Anytime *from Chester* would have been correct.

It’s still not correct.

The proper thing to do if a customer has broken their journey is to sell them an excess fare up to the ticket which does allow break of journey. An exception may be made if a new ticket is cheaper, but that is not often the case.

 

[yorkie]

It’s still not correct.

The proper thing to do if a customer has broken their journey is to sell them an excess fare up to the ticket which does allow break of journey. An exception may be made if a new ticket is cheaper, but that is not often the case.

Agreed.

Unfortunately in practice this is not always what happens, so what happened to the OP does not totally surprise me. There are some staff who believe that if a fare is not valid on that train for any reason (and they may or may not be correct in their assertion that a particular fare is or isn't) e.g. a time restricted ticket being used as an invalid time, then a new ticket should be issued. When questioned if that is the rule, they may reply along the lines that they have been "doing the job for 25 years" (as if that's somehow relevant). There was even one saying just this on a publicly visible Facebook group the other day!

Unfortunately it is a bit of a cultural problem among some people in the rail industry that refuses to go away.

 

[Gareth Marston]

There are no barriers at Flint, and probably no check/markup by ATW on the train to Chester, and there is no paid car park.
The barriers at Chester (to reach Costa) may or may not have been working, but ought to have flagged up a break of journey if made.
VT ticket checks are sometimes made between Chester and Crewe, but often they leave it till after departure from Crewe.
Perhaps the ticket had Newtown as issuing station, suggesting travel via Wrexham which does not have a VK easement.
It would be quite difficult to "prove" he started the journey at Flint.

The point I'm making is that Virgn are somewhat corporately paranoid about people trying to take advantage of their pricing cliff locations (Flint/Lancaster viz Chester/Preston) and therefore are starting to assume everyone is at it (last years infamous involve BTP @ Euston case) The issuing location of the ticket maybe construed as a clue to someone whose it at it i.e ordering online and collecting from a TVM to avoid any human challenge or it could be totally legitimate and innocent. Virgin Conductors can make assumptions but cannot 100% know.

Joining a TPE service at Lancaster and alighting at Preston and joining a Virgin service to London was raised in last years thread about the BTP/Euston stand off case. The same applies here. Virgin cant assume they have to proof. How does someone with a ticket from Flint get through the barriers at Chester? From what my customer told me this Virgin Conductor seemed to believe that ATW staff are colluding with customers trying to pull fast over Virgins "peak pricing". Unless the Virgin Conductor was at the train doors right by the barriers at Chester and saw someone waltz in from outside the station and get ATW barrier staff to let them through then there's no way they can certain.

 

[yorkie]

Interesting. They're playing a dangerous game. If they pick on the wrong person they could be in all sorts of trouble.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Interesting. They're playing a dangerous game. If they pick on the wrong person they could be in all sorts of trouble.

A first time for me to sell that particular ticket so i don't know whether my customers just a come across an individual on her high horse or whether this sort of thing is common on VTWC services from Chester. Conversely I sell hundreds of Off Peak Returns to Euston from Welshpool/Newtown/Caersws and have never heard of a VTWC Conductor on the EBW services challenging whether the individual has come on a connecting train from Mid Wales to get to Wolverhampton/New St.

 

[ffm]

The VT conductor is wirng whatever the timing s- a break of journey did not occur and all the dicusssions about train times etc are irrelevant. If the argument is about breaking of a journey then the NRCOC is clear:
Condition 16........For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated
as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than to: - the customer didn't leave the station di he?

 

[furlong]

The VT conductor is wirng whatever the timing s- a break of journey did not occur and all the dicusssions about train times etc are irrelevant. If the argument is about breaking of a journey then the NRCOC is clear:
Condition 16........For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated
as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than to: - the customer didn't leave the station di he?

That definition hasn't formed part of the contract for over a year now - the NRCoC are no more - and for all we know a court might fall back on using a dictionary definition now and that might even allow for considerably more flexible interpretations. Really, the industry should just give up on trying to impose very-difficult-to-enforce restrictions like these.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really, the industry should just give up on trying to impose very-difficult-to-enforce restrictions like these.

I agree. The sensible thing is to allow it within the validity period of the ticket. But also for TOCs to be allowed to impose restrictions in a consistent way - the Lancaster issue is AIUI caused by VT not being allowed more stringent restrictions from there.

 

[ffm]

That definition hasn't formed part of the contract for over a year now - the NRCoC are no more - and for all we know a court might fall back on using a dictionary definition now and that might even allow for considerably more flexible interpretations. Really, the industry should just give up on trying to impose very-difficult-to-enforce restrictions like these.

Good point about NRoC and replacement by NRoT - this isn't in there now, but as you say I would doubt any legal process would find that stopping on a station counts as a break of the journey, the journey wasn't broken, only a period of waiting around happended. A break is going off somewhere and returning, journey stopped completely anmd restarted