Areas that are a natural fit for other counties

[dgl]

One small place in Devon that should be in Dorset is Uplyme, has a Dorset post code, and is not separated from Lyme Regis (which is in Dorset) except for a sign.
There are probably other stupid thing like that in other places of the UK that could do with the sam treatment.

 

[Dentonian]

They'd know it was fresh at least...

I assume that's a play on words. The taste of tapwater in (east) Manchester has deteriorated badly in recent years

 

[Dentonian]

Some would argue Greater Manchester and Merseyside should be made much smaller, rather than made bigger. There's little sense in Wigan or Altrincham being in Greater Manchester or Newton-le-Willows or Southport being in Merseyside.

Conversely, that (along with similarly divorcing Doncaster from SY and reducing WY & T&W) would further enhace London's stranglehold on the rest of England. This was one of the arguments that came up with Mayoral-led Devolution, noting that many other countries don't have capitals that dominate so much demographically. Indeed, will the real capital of Germany, please stand up?

 

[Dentonian]

There is absolutely no reason why ENCTS holders living in PTE areas should effectively be given a free rail rover with no expiry date and the only conditions being that they can't be used in the morning peak or beyond the PTE boundary, while ENCTS holders living in villages outside PTE areas which are served by trains but no buses have to pay to get to any real amenities.

It would seem to make sense to create a West Lancs borough which is a unitary authority - similar to Blackburn with Darwen. The likes of Ormskirk and Burscough might well find it harder to be heard in Merseyside than in Lancashire.

I can think of over 10 million reasons (stick a £ sign in front), and whilst there may be villages outside PTE areas that are only served by trains, there are far more people in urban areas only served by bus - yet they have to pay Council Tax for free off-peak Rail for the few Retirees that can access it. By implication, those few tend to be better off as they either live in better off suburbs or can afford a car to reach rail.

 

[Dentonian]

Wythenshawe was originally part of Cheshire. There's overspill housing estates for Manchester at Colshaw Farm, Wilmslow and Longridge, Knutsford. Further west there's overspill housing estates for Liverpool in Runcorn and Winsford so should we expand Merseyside and Greater Manchester right the way down to Shropshire? Manchester Airport was originally Ringway Airport in the Ringway parish of Cheshire, if you approach the airport from the back roads you still see signs for Ringway.

I didn't say reform pre-1974 Cheshire or Lancashire. I would propose a North East Cheshire unitary authority which would include Altrincham, Cheadle, Wilmslow, Knutsford and Macclesfield - towns which are all suitable to commute to Manchester from but aren't literally on Manchester's doorstep. Wigan is a borough in it's own right - there's no reason why that borough can't be it's own unitary authority - it's not a choice of be controlled from Manchester or be controlled from Lancaster.

.

From what's been said on other threads, its these areas to the south of Manchester that are to benefit most from future investment in Roads and BRT, which they will only get if they are part of the GMCA area.
There are of course, many overspill estates all round Manchester, and some also illustrate the fact that both the "natural boundary" of the River Tame, and the Post Office's refusal since 1974 to accept Greater Manchester, are so outdated. Tameside straddles Lancashire and Cheshire, with what are effectively the twin towns of Denton and Hyde (barely a mile apart) formerly in Lancashire and Cheshire respectively.

 

[northwichcat]

which they will only get if they are part of the GMCA area.

GMCA isn't the same as GM. As has been demonstrated further down the Mersey the two can be different - Halton is a unitary authority in Cheshire which is part of the Liverpool City Region.

 

[northwichcat]

I can think of over 10 million reasons (stick a £ sign in front), and whilst there may be villages outside PTE areas that are only served by trains, there are far more people in urban areas only served by bus - yet they have to pay Council Tax for free off-peak Rail for the few Retirees that can access it. By implication, those few tend to be better off as they either live in better off suburbs or can afford a car to reach rail.

It's really a common misconception that PTE areas get more transport benefits due to funding it through their council taxes. PTEs get huge government grants for various schemes which non-PTE areas never see e.g. Greater Manchester has got a lot of funding for brand new battery and hybrid buses, while much of the set up costs for Metrolink have been paid for by central government, even if day to day operational costs are covered through revenue.

I'm also not sure it's true those who live in villages outside PTE areas are better off anymore. Historically it probably was the case that living further out from the city was reserved for the better off but now it seems to be closer to live near the city, even Wythenshawe is no longer cheap compared to former council estates in some Cheshire towns. The cost of housing in the likes of Hale, Bowdon and Worsley makes most of Cheshire look like bargain basement housing.

 

[fowler9]

Some would argue Greater Manchester and Merseyside should be made much smaller, rather than made bigger. There's little sense in Wigan or Altrincham being in Greater Manchester or Newton-le-Willows or Southport being in Merseyside.

Southport gets a more frequent train service in to Liverpool than I do and it is only just over ten minutes by train to the city centre from where I live.

 

[Dentonian]

It's really a common misconception that PTE areas get more transport benefits due to funding it through their council taxes. PTEs get huge government grants for various schemes which non-PTE areas never see e.g. Greater Manchester has got a lot of funding for brand new battery and hybrid buses, while much of the set up costs for Metrolink have been paid for by central government, even if day to day operational costs are covered through revenue.

.

I'm not sure what a "lot of funding" for battery/hybrid buses means, but apart from the fact I'm sure it is nowhere near the full cost, the vehicles involved operate on three groups of services.
1. School buses.
2. MetroShuttle aimed mainly at rail commuters
3. An increasingly limited number of subsidised services running into/through higher car ownership residential areas.

Just to explain to those that don't know.
ENCTS is paid largely by Central Government to allow (a decreasing number of) Concessionaries to travel free on BUSES off-peak.
TFGMC (and GMPTA/ITA before them) have decreed that the local Council taxpayer should stump up c. £10million a year to extend this to local rail, and an estimated £2-3 million a year to Metrolink. Its this current spending, rather than Capital spending, I was referring to.

 

[Dentonian]

GMCA isn't the same as GM. As has been demonstrated further down the Mersey the two can be different - Halton is a unitary authority in Cheshire which is part of the Liverpool City Region.

Are you sure?! I've not heard any suggestion that GMCA is not simply a resurrection of the GMC borders ripped up by Thatcher because she didn't like Ken Livingstone. Indeed, surely the whole point about LCR is that it has adopted a name other than "Merseyside", precisely because it has expanded into Halton.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not sure what a "lot of funding" for battery/hybrid buses means, but apart from the fact I'm sure it is nowhere near the full cost, the vehicles involved operate on three groups of services.
1. School buses.
2. MetroShuttle aimed mainly at rail commuters
3. An increasingly limited number of subsidised services running into/through higher car ownership residential areas.

Just to explain to those that don't know.
ENCTS is paid largely by Central Government to allow (a decreasing number of) Concessionaries to travel free on BUSES off-peak.
TFGMC (and GMPTA/ITA before them) have decreed that the local Council taxpayer should stump up c. £10million a year to extend this to local rail, and an estimated £2-3 million a year to Metrolink. Its this current spending, rather than Capital spending, I was referring to.

ENCTS reimbrusement outside PTE areas comes directly from council's budgets with the government setting a minimum reimbrusement level and most councils paying that. It's worth noting when Stagecoach Manchester withdrew the Wilmslow section of the 378 they cited reimbrusement for ENCTS being significantly lower in Cheshire East than Greater Manchester as the main reason for serving Wilmslow no longer being viable.

There's plenty of commercial routes which get hybrid buses in GM - the Oxford Road area seems to be almost all hybrids these days.

 

[northwichcat]

Are you sure?! I've not heard any suggestion that GMCA is not simply a resurrection of the GMC borders ripped up by Thatcher because she didn't like Ken Livingstone. Indeed, surely the whole point about LCR is that it has adopted a name other than "Merseyside", precisely because it has expanded into Halton.

When you say GMCA do you mean the city region that Andy Burnham is metro mayor for or something else? I'm guessing something else or I have no idea what your post is about.

 

[Dentonian]

ENCTS reimbrusement outside PTE areas comes directly from council's budgets with the government setting a minimum reimbrusement level and most councils paying that. It's worth noting when Stagecoach Manchester withdrew the Wilmslow section of the 378 they cited reimbrusement for ENCTS being significantly lower in Cheshire East than Greater Manchester as the main reason for serving Wilmslow no longer being viable.

There's plenty of commercial routes which get hybrid buses in GM - the Oxford Road area seems to be almost all hybrids these days.

I don't recall any Government grants for mainstream fleets of double-deck hybrids. Not in GM, anyway, unless the original batch of 30 had a small amount.

 

[Dentonian]

When you say GMCA do you mean the city region that Andy Burnham is metro mayor for or something else? I'm guessing something else or I have no idea what your post is about.

No. Its the city region (small c, small r) but coincides exactly with the ten boroughs that formed the original Greater Manchester County from 1974.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't recall any Government grants for mainstream fleets of double-deck hybrids. Not in GM, anyway, unless the original batch of 30 had a small amount.

I can't search for it now but I recall seeing a list of operators who had received government grants to buy buses and it included First Manchester, Stagecoach Manchester, Bullocks (for the 147) and MCT.

 

[Dentonian]

I can't search for it now but I recall seeing a list of operators who had received government grants to buy buses and it included First Manchester, Stagecoach Manchester, Bullocks (for the 147) and MCT.

Apologies, I had forgotten about the GBF being used for commercial ops. Note though that these were spread over 2 or 3 years, and I don't think they amounted to that much in comparison with rail investment (esp. Metrolink) or indeed Conessionary spending etc. TBH, under dereg, a lot of "spending" is a money go-round anyway. TFGM pay out about £13 million a year to subsidise mainstream services, but claw back about a quarter of that on facility charges. The Government pay out these grants, but how much to they rake in from Fuel Duty