Areas that are a natural fit for other counties

[bussnapperwm]

Following on from the thread which debates if Watford should be a London borough, I ask you this:

Which areas do you think are a natural fit to be in other counties?

Three I think of personally is that Coventry, whilst detached from the rest of the West Midlands by the Meriden Gap, is more of a fit to be in Warwickshire, especially since both the BBC and Local Enterprise Partnership believe that it's more of a fit

The second one I think of is Cannock, Lichfield & Tamworth, who have more a Birmingham centric fit in my mind, as opposed to being in Staffordshire.

The final one I can think of, personally, is Redditch, which despite having a Worcestershire authority, fits more into the West Midlands, especially with its roots as a over spill for Birmingham

What do you think?

 

[telstarbox]

In terms of local authorities, the arrangements should be guided by providing convenient and cost-effective services for the residents and not by what looks tidy on a map.

 

[martinsh]

Well for a start Wilmslow and Alderley Edge should be in Surrey ...

 

[kevconnor]

Always wondered if Glossop should be part of Greater Manchester, it is somewhat geographically detached from the rest of Derbyshire.

 

[TheNewNo2]

Recreate Avon please.

 

[Iskra]

Always wondered if Glossop should be part of Greater Manchester, it is somewhat geographically detached from the rest of Derbyshire.

Agreed. More controversially, perhaps Buxton too?

 

[Busaholic]

Agreed. More controversially, perhaps Buxton too?

Would anyone buy the water if they thought the source was in Manchester?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well for a start Wilmslow and Alderley Edge should be in Surrey ...

As should Harrogate... Whilst Woking (other than the outer districts that aren't really Woking 'proper' anyway) always has the feel of somewhere up North to me.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Would anyone buy the water if they thought the source was in Manchester?

They'd know it was fresh at least...

 

[PeterC]

Most counties have a degree of variation in both physical and human geography that means that there are areas that don't fit a stereotype about that county.

Take Essex and Kent. Both have similar working class industrial areas close to the Thames / Medway estuary and lovely countryside once you go inland. Somehow this defines Essex but Kent, the county where the term "chav" supposedly entered the English language, gets away with being the "Garden of England".

 

[AlterEgo]

Most counties have a degree of variation in both physical and human geography that means that there are areas that don't fit a stereotype about that county.

Take Essex and Kent. Both have similar working class industrial areas close to the Thames / Medway estuary and lovely countryside once you go inland. Somehow this defines Essex but Kent, the county where the term "chav" supposedly entered the English language, gets away with being the "Garden of England".

Big parts of Kent are a dump. It’s scandalous how forgotten it feels given that it literally adjoins Greater London.

I was in Chatham and Strood last summer and you could smell the Brexit in the air. Faversham, Folkestone, Margate, Ramsgate, you name it, they’re struggling. I’m not slagging those places off, it just baffles me how completely on their knees these places feel despite being not that far from London.

I haven’t looked it up but I can fully guarantee Kent voted to leave.

 

[DarloRich]

Teesside. North of the Tees = Durham. South of the Tees = Yorkshire

Anyway counties are passe.

 

[northwichcat]

Always wondered if Glossop should be part of Greater Manchester, it is somewhat geographically detached from the rest of Derbyshire.

Some would argue Greater Manchester and Merseyside should be made much smaller, rather than made bigger. There's little sense in Wigan or Altrincham being in Greater Manchester or Newton-le-Willows or Southport being in Merseyside.

 

[Dai Corner]

Recreate Avon please.

Controversial! Nobody liked Avon at the time; Bristolians resented losing their 'City and County' status, Bathonians felt they were overshadowed by Bristol and the more rural areas didn't want to be linked with the urban ones. My old Maths teacher was a leading light in the Back to Somerset campaign.

That said, the urban part of South Gloucestershire should have become part of Bristol when Avon was broken up.

 

[TheNewNo2]

Controversial! Nobody liked Avon at the time; Bristolians resented losing their 'City and County' status, Bathonians felt they were overshadowed by Bristol and the more rural areas didn't want to be linked with the urban ones. My old Maths teacher was a leading light in the Back to Somerset campaign.

That said, the urban part of South Gloucestershire should have become part of Bristol when Avon was broken up.

It seems to me that a lot of problems in the Bristol area re transport are caused by the lack of integration between the four authorities. South Gloucestershire for instance would oppose better transport links to Bristol city centre as it would take shoppers away from Cribbs Causeway which, despite being in the Bristol conurbation, is actually not within the city boundary. Perhaps just integrate the nearer parts into Bristol and fudge the rest off to Somerset and Gloucestershire, but the current situation is good for no one.

 

[Dai Corner]

It seems to me that a lot of problems in the Bristol area re transport are caused by the lack of integration between the four authorities. South Gloucestershire for instance would oppose better transport links to Bristol city centre as it would take shoppers away from Cribbs Causeway which, despite being in the Bristol conurbation, is actually not within the city boundary. Perhaps just integrate the nearer parts into Bristol and fudge the rest off to Somerset and Gloucestershire, but the current situation is good for no one.

The CUBA (Counties That Used to be Avon) authorities do co-operate on many services and indeed have a joint transport plan. https://travelwest.info/projects/joint-local-transport-plan

I agree that Cribbs Causeway should be under Bristol City Council. For those not familiar with the North Bristol Fringe, as it has been called, the Bristol /South Gloucestershire border runs through the urban area with buildings right next door to each other being under different authorities etc.

 

[telstarbox]

Big parts of Kent are a dump. It’s scandalous how forgotten it feels given that it literally adjoins Greater London.

I was in Chatham and Strood last summer and you could smell the Brexit in the air. Faversham, Folkestone, Margate, Ramsgate, you name it, they’re struggling. I’m not slagging those places off, it just baffles me how completely on their knees these places feel despite being not that far from London.

I haven’t looked it up but I can fully guarantee Kent voted to leave.

You're not wrong - Tunbridge Wells being the only Remain-voting district. I would have expected Sevenoaks to vote Remain as well but the rest are not a surprise, particularly Shepway and Dover which include the Channel ports.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:...um_2016_area_results_(South_East_England).svg

 

[sprinterguy]

More controversially, perhaps Buxton too?

Absolutely not. Buxton is the centre of the known universe for those who count themselves as resolutely High Peak and Derbyshire bred. Glossop, IMO, has always felt more peripheral in that regard so is a better fit for Greater Manchester.

 

[Howardh]

Well for a start Wilmslow and Alderley Edge should be in Surrey ...

*like*
Word has it that residents have their own secret underground line to Surrey.

 

[tbtc]

Always wondered if Glossop should be part of Greater Manchester, it is somewhat geographically detached from the rest of Derbyshire.

There's got to be a boundary somewhere, but I think that rivers/ hills tend to make the best borders.

Glossop water flows into the Mersey at Stockport, so I can make the argument for Glossop belonging to Greater Manchester. Buxton water flows into the Trent, so feels more part of Derbyshire.

I'd agree with @DarloRich about the Tees - Middlesbrough is in Yorkshire and Hartlepool is in County Durham.

But for similar river-based reasons, I'd put Chesterfield into South Yorkshire (given the path of the River Rother).

What irks me is examples like the English/ Welsh border south of Chester, where the Dee tends to be the border but then you have these big oxbow lakes as the river has changed path but the border hasn't, e.g. there's an area east of Wrexham where you get an "English" field on the western side of the Dee, because the river has evolved but the boundary hasn't. In fact, I'd be tempted to use the modern river path as the border further north, so that Lache becomes Welsh and Hawarden Bridge becomes English. Might upset a few people though The Dutch and Belgians sorted something like this out a year or two ago - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...herlands-agree-to-swap-land-to-restore-border

Countries agree to cede small, uninhabited parcels of land to reflect change in course of river, with Belgium giving more land than it will receive

 

[northwichcat]

*like*
Word has it that residents have their own secret underground line to Surrey.

You mean limousine service.

Not that long ago an old priest was moved from Sale to Alderley Edge, as due to his age he needed to run a smaller parish. After he had been there a while he criticised his new parishioners for not integrating with each other, like he used to seeing in other parishes he had worked in.

 

[northwichcat]

There's got to be a boundary somewhere, but I think that rivers/ hills tend to make the best borders.

Glossop water flows into the Mersey at Stockport, so I can make the argument for Glossop belonging to Greater Manchester. Buxton water flows into the Trent, so feels more part of Derbyshire.

The Mersey and Tame was the rough boundary between Cheshire and Lancashire pre-Greater Manchester and Merseyside. There isn't really a good natural boundary to separate Greater Manchester from neighbouring counties so perhaps the artificial M60 is the best boundary? Most of the towns outside aren't enthusiastic about being in Greater Manchester and I think Manchester Airport is the real reason for the Greater Manchester boundary being as far south as it is. The local politicians probably wouldn't like Manchester Airport being moved back in to Cheshire but which administrative district the airport is in isn't an issue for other cities e.g. the address of Toronto Pearson Airport is Mississauga, Ontario, Canada not Toronto or Greater Toronto.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ormskirk and Aughton (and possibly even Burscough) into Sefton, or failing that West Lancashire Borough into whatever passes for Merseyside these days, and out of administrative Lancashire.

But the turkeys voted for Christmas, and my Dad has to pay for his train rides as a result, whereas had they not all made representations against it they would have got them free

 

[Bletchleyite]

In terms of local authorities, the arrangements should be guided by providing convenient and cost-effective services for the residents and not by what looks tidy on a map.

Precisely my argument for West Lancs - it's a Liverpool commuter area primarily, and so having it under the same jurisdiction is an obvious move.

Skelmersdale should be in Merseyside too.

 

[northwichcat]

Ormskirk and Aughton (and possibly even Burscough) into Sefton, or failing that West Lancashire Borough into whatever passes for Merseyside these days, and out of administrative Lancashire.

But the turkeys voted for Christmas, and my Dad has to pay for his train rides as a result, whereas had they not all made representations against it they would have got them free

There is absolutely no reason why ENCTS holders living in PTE areas should effectively be given a free rail rover with no expiry date and the only conditions being that they can't be used in the morning peak or beyond the PTE boundary, while ENCTS holders living in villages outside PTE areas which are served by trains but no buses have to pay to get to any real amenities.

It would seem to make sense to create a West Lancs borough which is a unitary authority - similar to Blackburn with Darwen. The likes of Ormskirk and Burscough might well find it harder to be heard in Merseyside than in Lancashire.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Some would argue Greater Manchester and Merseyside should be made much smaller, rather than made bigger. There's little sense in Wigan or Altrincham being in Greater Manchester or Newton-le-Willows or Southport being in Merseyside.

Completely disagree. Where do you think people in Altrincham work, shop and play? Mostly places north and east, ie in Greater Manchester. Likewise people in Wigan associate more with Bolton and Manchester than they do Preston or Warrington.

The Mersey and Tame was the rough boundary between Cheshire and Lancashire pre-Greater Manchester and Merseyside. There isn't really a good natural boundary to separate Greater Manchester from neighbouring counties so perhaps the artificial M60 is the best boundary? Most of the towns outside aren't enthusiastic about being in Greater Manchester and I think Manchester Airport is the real reason for the Greater Manchester boundary being as far south as it is. The local politicians probably wouldn't like Manchester Airport being moved back in to Cheshire but which administrative district the airport is in isn't an issue for other cities e.g. the address of Toronto Pearson Airport is Mississauga, Ontario, Canada not Toronto or Greater Toronto.

Manchester Airport has always been very much a part of Manchester, indeed it's right next door to Wythenshawe, Manchester's largest overspill housing area. Arguably Wilmslow should also be part of Greater Manchester and possibly Alderley Edge too. The satellite towns around Manchester don't really object to being in Greater Manchester, just the use of the word Manchester. But there isn't really a suitable alternative name for the region.

There's got to be a boundary somewhere, but I think that rivers/ hills tend to make the best borders.

Glossop water flows into the Mersey at Stockport, so I can make the argument for Glossop belonging to Greater Manchester. Buxton water flows into the Trent, so feels more part of Derbyshire.

I'd agree with @DarloRich about the Tees - Middlesbrough is in Yorkshire and Hartlepool is in County Durham.

But for similar river-based reasons, I'd put Chesterfield into South Yorkshire (given the path of the River Rother).

What irks me is examples like the English/ Welsh border south of Chester, where the Dee tends to be the border but then you have these big oxbow lakes as the river has changed path but the border hasn't, e.g. there's an area east of Wrexham where you get an "English" field on the western side of the Dee, because the river has evolved but the boundary hasn't. In fact, I'd be tempted to use the modern river path as the border further north, so that Lache becomes Welsh and Hawarden Bridge becomes English. Might upset a few people though The Dutch and Belgians sorted something like this out a year or two ago - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...herlands-agree-to-swap-land-to-restore-border

The rivers and hills argument is a rather lazy one these days. Such natural features are nothing like the physical boundaries they used to be: look at the amount of traffic crossing the summit of the M62. And with very few exceptions our rivers are only wide enough to be obstacles in their tidal/estuarial reaches. What's more we are still building bridges across rivers because people don't want to be divided by them. Having said all that I agree with your other points though Buxton is sufficiently remote that it almost warrants its own separate identity.

Precisely my argument for West Lancs - it's a Liverpool commuter area primarily, and so having it under the same jurisdiction is an obvious move.

Skelmersdale should be in Merseyside too.

Agreed.

 

[northwichcat]

Completely disagree. Where do you think people in Altrincham work, shop and play? Mostly places north and east, ie in Greater Manchester. Likewise people in Wigan associate more with Bolton and Manchester than they do Preston or Warrington.

Manchester Airport has always been very much a part of Manchester, indeed it's right next door to Wythenshawe, Manchester's largest overspill housing area. Arguably Wilmslow should also be part of Greater Manchester and possibly Alderley Edge too.

Wythenshawe was originally part of Cheshire. There's overspill housing estates for Manchester at Colshaw Farm, Wilmslow and Longridge, Knutsford. Further west there's overspill housing estates for Liverpool in Runcorn and Winsford so should we expand Merseyside and Greater Manchester right the way down to Shropshire? Manchester Airport was originally Ringway Airport in the Ringway parish of Cheshire, if you approach the airport from the back roads you still see signs for Ringway.

I didn't say reform pre-1974 Cheshire or Lancashire. I would propose a North East Cheshire unitary authority which would include Altrincham, Cheadle, Wilmslow, Knutsford and Macclesfield - towns which are all suitable to commute to Manchester from but aren't literally on Manchester's doorstep. Wigan is a borough in it's own right - there's no reason why that borough can't be it's own unitary authority - it's not a choice of be controlled from Manchester or be controlled from Lancaster.

The satellite towns around Manchester don't really object to being in Greater Manchester, just the use of the word Manchester. But there isn't really a suitable alternative name for the region.

People just want the benefits of being in Greater Manchester and Merseyside that shire counties are deprived of. End the postcode lottery and people wouldn't care if their town was taken out of Greater Manchester or Merseyside.

 

[martinsh]

. The satellite towns around Manchester don't really object to being in Greater Manchester, just the use of the word Manchester. But there isn't really a suitable alternative name for the region.
.

Selnecshire ?!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Selnecshire ?!

Point taken. But, that doesn't really cover the far northern end of Derbyshire which is much more closely linked to Manchester than Derby. The best vaguely geographic name I can think of is West Pennine Metro though even that is rather tenuous for the likes of Altrincham or Leigh.

 

[Busaholic]

You're not wrong - Tunbridge Wells being the only Remain-voting district. I would have expected Sevenoaks to vote Remain as well but the rest are not a surprise, particularly Shepway and Dover which include the Channel ports.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:...um_2016_area_results_(South_East_England).svg

When I went to work with the Probation Service in Kent in the early 1980s I was amazed to hear that the town/city with the greatest drug problem was 'genteel' TW, with Thanet a close second. Sevenoaks and the surrounding villages has some claim to be the most affluent area in the UK, based on full-time residency, although Wokingham and one or two others also lay claim to the title. Other parts of the Sevenoaks District Council area, though, are definitely Brexiteers, probably stoked up over the years by the 'illegal immigrant' stories of people escaping from lorries in the county. Come to think of it, Sevenoaks was the only major Kentish town not to have its own Probation office, the Medway Towns boasting no fewer than three!