New Transdev Cityzap services registered (and now cancelled)

[Stan Drews]

The only thing I ca think of is that the max distance between stops for a registered "local bus service" has increased from 15 to 20 miles. According to the AA; Chadderton, Broadway to Ainley Top is 19.54 miles.

It is 15 miles, but is measured 'as the crow flies'.

 

[Andyh82]

Personally I think that CityZap2 should come off at 23, whittle through Ainley Top village pick up and set down there then down the A643 into Brighouse and pick up / set down on Huddersfield Road / Sainsbury's before rejoining the M62 at junction 25. As there's buses from Huddersfield, Halifax, Cleckheaton and Elland that go to Brighouse which people could use and interchange in Brighouse had it been the pickup / set down point than Ainley Top which is miles from anywhere.

They could do, but then people will point out that trains from Brighouse to Leeds and Manchester run hourly and are quicker, and we'd be back to square one.

Plus diverting via Brighouse would take between 10-20 minutes longer than staying on the M62

 

[Welshman]

They could do, but then people will point out that trains from Brighouse to Leeds and Manchester run hourly and are quicker, and we'd be back to square one.

Plus diverting via Brighouse would take between 10-20 minutes longer than staying on the M62

You could go from Brighouse to Manchester via Huddersfield, involving a more expensive fare and the inconvenience of changing trains, but the direct train from Brighouse to Manchester Victoria[calling at all stations up the Valley], takes 64 minutes. A diverted Cityzap should be able to beat that.
Admittedly, Brighouse to Leeds is faster by train, but if you are wanting the Parish Church/Headrow/West Yorkshire Playhouse/Bus Station side of Leeds, the bus would be more convenient.
I realise it's early days yet, but unless the loadings pick-up considerably in the next few months, surely its better to serve possible intermediate needs and take a little longer overall than run half-empty along the motorway every day?

 

[SCH117X]

There have been a few tweets from people using the Ainley Top stop.

 

[96tommy]

There have been a few tweets from people using the Ainley Top stop.

But there would be a lot more if it actually served a town centre

 

[tbtc]

I don't think a bus across the M62 is everyone's cup of tea when trains are quicker

There have been a few tweets from people using the Ainley Top stop.

But there would be a lot more if it actually served a town centre

So CityZap is bad because it's slow but it should also be slowed down even more by diverting into an unspecified town centre?

It's Schrödinger's Bus Service - both too slow and too fast

The Manchester Zap might have carved out a better niche for itself had it offered at least one or two more stops rather than dumping punters on the edge of Huddersfield. In the past plenty of similar services managed to serve reasonably long end-to-end services with intermediate stops (I'm thinking of services like the X33 Sheffield-Bradford), so perhaps if it ran fast to say Halifax, Brighouse or Elland then onto Manchester it might pick up far more patronage? But as it stands it departs Leeds at the far end of the city centre at the bus station, doesn't pick up again until the outskirts of Huddersfield then onto Manchester. Even another stop in the centre of Leeds might push it a bit more, say at the station or somewhere close to City Square.

And then of course you have the M62, which is a regular choke point across the Pennines even in good weather, let alone the poor conditions its currently having. Looking at the timetable it can take anything from 1h 15m (which isn't bad) to 1h 40m in the peaks for what is a 43 mile journey, most of which is motorway. Not ideal for attracting the customers, and even less so when TPE get the new stock and greatly improve capacity. And all this is before you factor in the jams on the M62 as well as at each end. It would be interesting to see if the padding TransDev have included on some routes is enough or if journey times are even longer.

The trains are better and the M62 isn't ideal for attracting customers because of the traffic jams, but you also want the CityZap service to take longer by running into Halifax (which also has direct trains to Leeds/ Manchester)?

If they have to run into a town centre then I'd suggest something leftfield like Cleckheaton, where there's no competing train service (and a number of local bus routes that you can interchange with).

 

[96tommy]

Well with the service being as slow as it can take sometimes at the moment I don't know if passengers are using it based on journey times. Probably more price although that rises this week.......

I don't see much harm in making the journey slightly longer to serve a town and gain more passengers

 

[Dentonian]

Well with the service being as slow as it can take sometimes at the moment I don't know if passengers are using it based on journey times. Probably more price although that rises this week.......

I don't see much harm in making the journey slightly longer to serve a town and gain more passengers

Looking at the website, the Single & Returns stay the same (for now). I think Operators are too obsessed with target markets nowadays, such that those who don't use the competing rail service regularly and aren't on Twitter, are largely unaware of this service. Christmas Shopping apart, I also think they launched it at he worst possible time; clocks had just gone back so less attractive to Day trippers and the start of the worst time of year for traffic congestion. I just hope they aren't daft enough to give up an de-register just as the clocks go forward again. As for re-routing, there may be options, but they would need to remember that NatEx is only slightly more expensive. If they aren't too rigid with simplifying routes, maybe they could stick to the direct service on weekdays and try an alternative routing at weekends.

The other thing to bear in mind, given this is run from west of the Pennines....and they have now got Rosso (and its Rochdale OC) is that express/limited stop bus/coach services are virtually non existent and Rail is often slow and unreliable (off-peak). From Manchester; Chester and Blackpool in particular are appallingly served for example.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Halifax and Huddersfield detours would add significantly to the journey time. Especially Halifax, given that the road through Salterhebble is bad even before the major roadworks taking place there. It's a non-starter.

Transdev will know what numbers they were expecting, and it won't be full buses.

 

[Bantamzen]

The trains are better and the M62 isn't ideal for attracting customers because of the traffic jams, but you also want the CityZap service to take longer by running into Halifax (which also has direct trains to Leeds/ Manchester)?

If they have to run into a town centre then I'd suggest something leftfield like Cleckheaton, where there's no competing train service (and a number of local bus routes that you can interchange with).

I don't want anything, I simply suggested that TransDev might want to consider opening up a different market to make it work. Clearly when Manchester bound Zaps are leaving Leeds with a handful of passengers, and sometimes none, then there really isn't a market for it. However a fast service to Halifax and Halifax to Manchester for example might have a better chance of sucess.

Halifax and Huddersfield detours would add significantly to the journey time. Especially Halifax, given that the road through Salterhebble is bad even before the major roadworks taking place there. It's a non-starter.

Transdev will know what numbers they were expecting, and it won't be full buses.

I feel confident in saying they weren't planning on carrying around fresh air.

 

[SCH117X]

It might be better if they picked up through Leeds instead of just running straight from the Bus Station to the motorway. The York Cityzap picks up on the way out of York. The could head west along the Headrow from the bus station and join the M621 at Armley, Junction 2 - its a good 10 minute+ walk from the Headrow to the station plus the time to get through the barriers and over the footbridge to the Trans Pennine platform. That's the reason the 36 to Harrogate is so popular (ignoring matters like wifi, leg room, and seat comfort); the longer journey time compared to the train is radically offset by the bus picking up/dropping down on the north side of the city centre compared to the train station being to the south.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It might be better if they picked up through Leeds instead of just running straight from the Bus Station to the motorway. The York Cityzap picks up on the way out of York. The could head west along the Headrow from the bus station and join the M621 at Armley, Junction 2 - its a good 10 minute+ walk from the Headrow to the station plus the time to get through the barriers and over the footbridge to the Trans Pennine platform. That's the reason the 36 to Harrogate is so popular (ignoring matters like wifi, leg room, and seat comfort); the longer journey time compared to the train is radically offset by the bus picking up/dropping down on the north side of the city centre compared to the train station being to the south.

That makes more sense than vehicles wandering through half of Calderdale or Kirklees

 

[Statto]

That makes more sense than vehicles wandering through half of Calderdale or Kirklees

Agreed, going through Halifax or Huddersfield would add 30-40 minutes [maybe more in the peaks] onto the journey, maybe doing a loop of Leeds City Centre is a better idea

 

[Deerfold]

Agreed, going through Halifax or Huddersfield would add 30-40 minutes [maybe more in the peaks] onto the journey, maybe doing a loop of Leeds City Centre is a better idea

I've spent over half an hour on the Headrow on the X6 from Leeds in the evening peak.

 

[Hophead]

I would expect the service to be permitted to vary the route to avoid congestion, so adding in more stopping points could hinder this.

 

[theblackwatch]

I think one of the plus points of the service is that it comes out of the bus station and heads straight for the motorway - no delays staggering through the centre of Leeds to pick a couple of people up, which can take quite a while.

I did the CityZap yesterday (last chance at £9.50) and unfortunately it wasn't the best of experiences. My outward journey (09.30 ex Leeds) was cancelled so had to wait an hour in Leeds Bus Station - it could have been worse though, some passengers were waiting at Ainley Top! The return (18.05 ex Manchester) finally turned up around 19.25 following an incident on the M62. I don't think Transdev are going to tempt many people off the railway, which has several trains an hour between the two cities, if this is the best they can offer...

 

[96tommy]

I think one of the plus points of the service is that it comes out of the bus station and heads straight for the motorway - no delays staggering through the centre of Leeds to pick a couple of people up, which can take quite a while.

I did the CityZap yesterday (last chance at £9.50) and unfortunately it wasn't the best of experiences. My outward journey (09.30 ex Leeds) was cancelled so had to wait an hour in Leeds Bus Station - it could have been worse though, some passengers were waiting at Ainley Top! The return (18.05 ex Manchester) finally turned up around 19.25 following an incident on the M62. I don't think Transdev are going to tempt many people off the railway, which has several trains an hour between the two cities, if this is the best they can offer...

Not the best day and I think the main problem is just the M62. An unreliable road at the best of times.

 

[Andyh82]

The middle of winter during a period of snow isn’t the best time to assess a service, I bet many Coastliner trips to the coast aren’t carrying many at the moment.

They need to give it a year and see if it picks up in the spring and summer months.

Also I expect they will think about moving it to Haslingden or Rochdale to reduce dead running and hence overheads.

If they do that I predict that’ll cause a stir on the forums, as it means Burnley & Pendle will need to cancel the service, and Rossendale Transport will need to register a new service, and they might not appear on the website at the same time!

 

[BradK2017]

I Think the idea of running it via Brighouse could be an option without adding too much time to the current journeys,if it turned off the Motorway at J.25 & Along Wakefield Rd (or if traffic is bad going towards Brighouse they could cut down the Ind Est) Stop at Sainsburys,then direct up A643 to Ainley Top to join its current route (possibly add a stop in Rastrick seen as it would be passing through) It could provide popular seen as Brighouse lost almost all its direct buses to Leeds apart from a couple of Arriva during the week. The only thing is that most people that would end up using it from the Brighouse area towards Leeds would most likely be M-Card holders,not really the market Transdev are probably aiming for.

 

[Deerfold]

I Think the idea of running it via Brighouse could be an option without adding too much time to the current journeys,if it turned off the Motorway at J.25 & Along Wakefield Rd (or if traffic is bad going towards Brighouse they could cut down the Ind Est) Stop at Sainsburys,then direct up A643 to Ainley Top to join its current route (possibly add a stop in Rastrick seen as it would be passing through) It could provide popular seen as Brighouse lost almost all its direct buses to Leeds apart from a couple of Arriva during the week. The only thing is that most people that would end up using it from the Brighouse area towards Leeds would most likely be M-Card holders,not really the market Transdev are probably aiming for.

Since it got trains, I don't think a huge number of people in Brighouse were using the buses to Leeds - it's lost the M62 proper express, X6 and the 225 with just 1-2 X25s left. Whilst I'm sure some people miss them, I'm not sure there's much of a market there (I've been the only person on an M62 towards the end of its life). Later trains will be running to Manchester from May too.

 

[185143]

Had an unexpexted round trip to Leeds today. Left Manchester on a Burnley Versa at 15:05, 8 passengers onboard, 2 more boarding at Piccadilly Gardens.

Missed the Chadderton stop as I rung the bell far too early (due to not knowing where the stop was), we hit traffic and the driver forgot all about it! (He was VERY apologetic at Ainley Top though-that sigh of relief when I said I was just having a ride on the bus and not to worry about it was very genuine!) I stayed on the bus to Leeds.

Now back on the same Versa, left Leeds at 17:30 with 5 on. 45 minutes later we've just left Ainley Top where 3 of the passengers got off. Quite like these Burnley Versas actually-not been on one before!

 

[96tommy]

Had an unexpexted round trip to Leeds today. Left Manchester on a Burnley Versa at 15:05, 8 passengers onboard, 2 more boarding at Piccadilly Gardens.
Now back on the same Versa, left Leeds at 17:30 with 5 on. 45 minutes later we've just left Ainley Top where 3 of the passengers got off. Quite like these Burnley Versas actually-not been on one before!

Surprised there was more at an "off-peak" time as compared to a peak service from Leeds with a mere 5 on board.

The York Zap route seems to have had a lot of cancellations recently owing to faults etc. How many spare buses are based at York for use on the Zap?

 

[Wirewiper]

Stopping briefly at motorway junctions, rather than time-consuming diversions into town centres, is increasingly common on express services (although not a new one, cf. Milton Keynes Coachway and Reading-Mereoak, formerly Calcot). Stagecoach do it on their successful Falcon service between Plymouth and Bristol, which stops at Park and Ride sites on the edge of Exeter just off the M5 rather than fighting its way in and out of the congested city centre.

Don't forget that travellers can arrange to be dropped off or picked up even at locations that appear remote, either in a friend's or relative's car or a taxi, and these days with just about everyone having a mobile phone it is easy to arrange pick ups, report on progress etc.. Also, if there are villages or suburbs in the vicinity, potential passengers will walk surprisingly long distances to the stop if the reward is a fast direct service - I dare say for some residents of Elland it is worth walking up to Ainley Top to get a fast direct bus into Manchester or Leeds.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Since it got trains, I don't think a huge number of people in Brighouse were using the buses to Leeds - it's lost the M62 proper express, X6 and the 225 with just 1-2 X25s left. Whilst I'm sure some people miss them, I'm not sure there's much of a market there (I've been the only person on an M62 towards the end of its life). Later trains will be running to Manchester from May too.

It also lost the X80 which was a rehash of the old M62 bus! There were a reasonable number of people who bused it to Leeds on the X6 even though the town has had a railway station for almost twenty years. Plus there's the little problem of ticketing, its worth noting that Calderdale and Kirklees sees a lot of people who only buy FirstDays which aren't valid on CityZap2 as its operated by Transdev.

So if Transdev could make inroads into Calderdale and used Brighouse as a hub, then I do think that eastern Calderdale would once again have a direct bus to Leeds even though Transdev is running the show, it might just be enough to lure people off using FirstDays and instead into fully multi operator ticketing, thus opening up flexibility.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So if Transdev could make inroads into Calderdale and used Brighouse as a hub, then I do think that eastern Calderdale would once again have a direct bus to Leeds even though Transdev is running the show, it might just be enough to lure people off using FirstDays and instead into fully multi operator ticketing, thus opening up flexibility.

That would seem to be a very long shot

 

[Tetchytyke]

So if Transdev could make inroads into Calderdale and used Brighouse as a hub, then I do think that eastern Calderdale would once again have a direct bus to Leeds even though Transdev is running the show, it might just be enough to lure people off using FirstDays and instead into fully multi operator ticketing, thus opening up flexibility.

I wouldn't think so. Calderdale has two main bus companies now- Yorkshire Tiger has a big presence, especially evenings/Sundays- so those who would switch from First to M-Day/M-Card already will have done so.

The M62 failed for a reason.

 

[Statto]

Brighouse already has an express service to Leeds, Arriva X25, although operates one journey to Leeds & 2 from Leeds, peak hour only, & even that takes just over an hour, doubt the market will be there for CityZap, people did use the X6 but not just for traveling to Leeds.

 

[Dentonian]

Not had chance to read the full article in Buses mag, but I have noticed Alex Hornby stating that Cityzap is not intended as a competitor for NX and he hopes it keeps 100% of its passengers - which makes my ask again why it stops at exactly he same "middle of nowhere" stop on Broadway as NatEx? Reassuringly, he does emphasise the fact that its a bus and not a coach, and re-inforcing the attraction of just turning up and paying on the bus.
Incidentally, I saw both the 1405 & 1505 departures from Manchester - the latter being one of the "Pride of the North" Geminis - this afternoon and both appeared to have just four passengers on. Possibly a bit disappointing, given that today was the first day since early December we've seen more than a glimpse the sun in Manchester, and its also a Friday. The standard cityzap bus on the 1405 did still have "£9 return" transfers in the windows, so I assume that fare didn't go up last weekend.

 

[Stan Drews]

If the Chadderton, Broadway stop used by NatEx and Cityzap is the "middle of nowhere", despite being a short walk from what google maps (reasonably) considers to be Chadderton, and just round the corner from a 10 min frequency bus service to/from Oldham, can I ask which alternative stop you would consider to be more central?​

 

[185143]

I too was wondering why the Chadderton Broadway stop.

Then I got off there and was in Oldham 20 minutes later. That's why!