Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[BRX]

they wouldn't discount the berths anymore with our railcard because "it's a completely different product".

Which railcard?

Are things like railcard discounts not specified in the franchise terms? Can Serco pretty much just charge what they want for anything?

 

[gcmozart]

Which railcard?

Are things like railcard discounts not specified in the franchise terms? Can Serco pretty much just charge what they want for anything?

I was told the TwoTogether railcard was not valid

 

[Deafdoggie]

The (old stock) sleeper cars going forward are being confingured as per the new stock which I believe is a composite of “first” and “standard” in each sleeper car, rather than a car being all of one class or the other.

And it would appear (as you’d expect) that the premium berths are those in the middle and the standard ones are over the bogies.

The Night Riviera Sleeper has each sleeper coach made up as half single rooms & half twin rooms.

 

[Essexman]

One of the advantages of first class is not being next to a double occupied berth where the occupants talk - especially visitors from certain countries who have a tendency to be loud. That benefit may be lost if you have the first class berth adjoining the standard in the new coaches.

 

[Wombat]

I realise that I'm a bit late to the party here, but I'm looking forward to the new trains coming into service. Judging from the photos the existing berths look a bit like something you'd find in an NHS hospital, while the new ones look rather nice. A double bed and an en-suite make this a very attractive proposition for a long weekend in the summer.

 

[Leisurefirst]

I realise that I'm a bit late to the party here, but I'm looking forward to the new trains coming into service. Judging from the photos the existing berths look a bit like something you'd find in an NHS hospital, while the new ones look rather nice. A double bed and an en-suite make this a very attractive proposition for a long weekend in the summer.

Which Summer...?

 

[Kite159]

The single bed en-suite rooms are due to start at £125. Which, if any do appear at that price, is pretty good value for money compared to a day train and hotel (or even a flight and hotel).

It's also a price where I could probably convince my employer to pay it on expenses despite technically being "first class".

I suspect they might start at £125, but the number available for that price I reckon you can count on one hand and still have fingers left over

I will judge the seats when the new coaches eventually arrive, however I suspect they won't be as nice as the current seated coaches [but should be better than the GWR seated sleeper coaches of all 2+2 airline style]

 

[Chrism20]

I did have a chuckle when I saw the £125 quote for a single ensuite cabin/room. I don’t think I have seen the equivalent single cabin/room which obviously isn’t ensuite on the current stock for under £140 in the last six months.

 

[TimboM]

Because of the resistance from employers to 1st class, I think they are likely to move to what DB traditionally did, which is a Standard Class train with room supplements.

The new stock doesn't use the terms "first class" / "standard class" anymore - it's Suites (double bed/en suite) / Club Rooms (single/en suite) / Classic Rooms (bunks / basin only - akin to current berth but bit bigger - available as Solo or Shared with someone you know) / Comfort Seats.

So if you have a company policy saying "no first class" then I'm not sure how they'd identify (or even argue) that a Classic Room berth which is the lesser of the three berth options available is "first class"? (Unless they stipulate you can only use the seats or a day train.)

I will judge the seats when the new coaches eventually arrive, however I suspect they won't be as nice as the current seated coaches [but should be better than the GWR seated sleeper coaches of all 2+2 airline style]

Not sure where this notion that seems to keep cropping up that the new Mk5 seats (on balance) won't be as good as the old ones. There seems to be posts fairly often on here (and tweets to CS on Twitter) about the seated coach having no heat and/or lighting and/or the toilets being out of use of smelling the whole carriage out. I would hope the Mk5 coaches are more reliable in terms of heat, light and working WCs, which in terms of the whole experience should put them a step ahead of the creaking 40-odd year old Mk2s to start with.

I expect the new seats will be firmer (less comfortable?) to begin with as they've not had folk sit in them for years bedding them in!

 

[Marklund]

I did have a chuckle when I saw the £125 quote for a single ensuite cabin/room. I don’t think I have seen the equivalent single cabin/room which obviously isn’t ensuite on the current stock for under £140 in the last six months.

Having a quick look at prices for late in 2018, and solo room is currently showing as £205/£235, twin is £170/195 (for two together), so quite a difference for the solo. I'd imagine that the quoted "from" prices will be advance non-refundable fares.
From a selfish point of view, it will be interesting to see what price Priv comes in at, and availability of it...

 

[Leisurefirst]

Which railcard?

Are things like railcard discounts not specified in the franchise terms? Can Serco pretty much just charge what they want for anything?

We have a Two Together railcard.
When booking the journeys about a year ahead last year the 2T discount worked on all tickets booked for travel upto about Feb or March 18 IIRC but once the new stock was supposed to be in service would only discount the seated tickets even though "as it's an interim period we cannot guarantee what type of train" etc...
The 2T leaflet and the website still quoted discount on Caledonian Sleeper tickets with no disclaimer. (The Ts&Cs on the back quote I think three months notice to be given for changes.) I contacted CS and they confirmed no discount any more, I used the contact on National Rail and they gave me the most useless non answer and told me to contact CS and when I did so again got the "new product" line. I settled for the seats and discount as the new stock should have been well in service by the dates of travel. To add insult, the new 2T leaflet in September STILL had the same discount message months after. Now it's the same trains so how can they justify the "new product" line? Will they give anybody who bought berths at full price the discount in retrospect? Of course not!

 

[Wombat]

Which Summer...?

Whichever summer they become available!

 

[BRX]

We have a Two Together railcard.
When booking the journeys about a year ahead last year the 2T discount worked on all tickets booked for travel upto about Feb or March 18 IIRC but once the new stock was supposed to be in service would only discount the seated tickets even though "as it's an interim period we cannot guarantee what type of train" etc...
The 2T leaflet and the website still quoted discount on Caledonian Sleeper tickets with no disclaimer. (The Ts&Cs on the back quote I think three months notice to be given for changes.) I contacted CS and they confirmed no discount any more, I used the contact on National Rail and they gave me the most useless non answer and told me to contact CS and when I did so again got the "new product" line. I settled for the seats and discount as the new stock should have been well in service by the dates of travel. To add insult, the new 2T leaflet in September STILL had the same discount message months after. Now it's the same trains so how can they justify the "new product" line? Will they give anybody who bought berths at full price the discount in retrospect? Of course not!

That's not right, if it's advertised in the 2T literature. "New product" is a bit pathetic - how can it be reasonable to expect anyone deciding to buy a railcard to know that the terms can change if TOCs decide to rename their "products"? I'd be inclined to kick up a fuss; they only get away with this stuff if no-one complains.

 

[Leisurefirst]

That's not right, if it's advertised in the 2T literature. "New product" is a bit pathetic - how can it be reasonable to expect anyone deciding to buy a railcard to know that the terms can change if TOCs decide to rename their "products"? I'd be inclined to kick up a fuss; they only get away with this stuff if no-one complains.

To my regret, I didn't pursue it. I bit the bullet and bought the seats (was only going to pay for a berth on the return leg) for fear of them going up whilst complaining...(they did just days later).
Just had a look and at least the 2T website has been changed. Now says
"Two Together Railcard discounted tickets are accepted on Sleeper services, providing you board the train before 0430. Discounts are not available on Sleeper berths or travel/berth inclusive tickets."

Then confusingly
Caledonian Sleeper Tickets

• 1/3 off Caledonian Sleeper services when boarding before 4:30

Um, can't you board after 4:30 if it's the weekend or the evening for local travel? Although of course I see from this board they're not keen on that sort of thing.

 

[TimboM]

That's not right, if it's advertised in the 2T literature. "New product" is a bit pathetic - how can it be reasonable to expect anyone deciding to buy a railcard to know that the terms can change if TOCs decide to rename their "products"? I'd be inclined to kick up a fuss; they only get away with this stuff if no-one complains.

To my regret, I didn't pursue it. I bit the bullet and bought the seats (was only going to pay for a berth on the return leg) for fear of them going up whilst complaining...(they did just days later).
Just had a look and at least the 2T website has been changed. Now says
"Two Together Railcard discounted tickets are accepted on Sleeper services, providing you board the train before 0430. Discounts are not available on Sleeper berths or travel/berth inclusive tickets."

Then confusingly
Caledonian Sleeper Tickets

• 1/3 off Caledonian Sleeper services when boarding before 4:30

Um, can't you board after 4:30 if it's the weekend or the evening for local travel? Although of course I see from this board they're not keen on that sort of thing.

CS' standard response to all this as offered up on Twitter several times when its been raised with them is that their (new) pricing already includes reductions for two people / families travelling together etc. etc. so they are no longer providing the Railcard discounts.

Obviously there'll be some degree of scepticism about this explanation, but it's one they can probably stand behind should any regulator etc. come knocking.

 

[TimboM]

1S25 was held for c.40-50 mins just south of Crewe station along with a lot of other trains due to an incident involving a passenger being taken ill/injured at Winsford station. The train involved at Winsford (1F59 Birmingham NS to Liverpool Lime Street) was there from c.21:40 to c.00:25.

1S25 35L leaving Crewe as a result.

 

[Flying Snail]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear when I directed you to their site. What I meant was that if you start the process of making a dummy booking then you'll find yourself looking at detailed coach plans three or four steps in. I'd screen shot it but some of the type is in grey so you're better viewing it direct.

The cabin including 8U also has 7L on the plan but I imagine that any booking that is showing as two 8s has to be the upper and lower in that compartment, you can't possibly have another 8 elsewhere in the coach.

I think it's very unlikely to be wrong.

On the sleeper.scot website the coach plans and ability to see or change allocated berth is only available up to 23 February 2018, beyond that the system auto allocates a berth and customer has no indication of location or ability to change it.

It looks like the current berth numbers (odd for low even for high) are being changed from that date onwards to a single number per cabin.

More worryingly there is currently no ability to book supplements on the website, possibly an error but CS seem keen to be as separate from the rest of the rail network as possible maybe not.

Are thy required to accept open/any permitted/ALR/Britrail both in seats and beds or can they opt out of acceptance? Presumably they get a small % of open tickets valid on CS through ORCATS, if this remains so then they must accept those tickets, can they withdraw from that and only allow inclusive fares?

 

[Mag_seven]

The train involved at Winsford (1F59 Birmingham NS to Liverpool Lime Street) was there from c.21:40 to c.00:25.

How long!

 

[BRX]

CS' standard response to all this as offered up on Twitter several times when its been raised with them is that their (new) pricing already includes reductions for two people / families travelling together etc. etc. so they are no longer providing the Railcard discounts.

Obviously there'll be some degree of scepticism about this explanation, but it's one they can probably stand behind should any regulator etc. come knocking.

I see - well, maybe that makes sense to some extent.
I had a look at other railcard terms.
Disabled railcard - seems to imply that the 1/3 off still applies to all sleeper tickets
YP - implies that it applies but uses the 'old' ticket names
Senior - same as YP.

 

[theironroad]

I just tried a dummy booking for 28 November for 1 person, one way from London to Glasgow.

Cheapest seat was £45

Cheapest berth was a fixed advance, no refund or changes in a 'solo room's for £205

Berth was automatically allocated to K03L with no preview charts available and inhale to change.

I can only assume two things,

1) Serco want to lose the contract very quickly as there will only be a handful of passengers in berths or
2) they haven't finalized new train bookings and cheaper quota fares may become available

Either way, not looking good.

 

[47271]

On the sleeper.scot website the coach plans and ability to see or change allocated berth is only available up to 23 February 2018, beyond that the system auto allocates a berth and customer has no indication of location or ability to change it.

It looks like the current berth numbers (odd for low even for high) are being changed from that date onwards to a single number per cabin.

More worryingly there is currently no ability to book supplements on the website, possibly an error but CS seem keen to be as separate from the rest of the rail network as possible maybe not.

Are thy required to accept open/any permitted/ALR/Britrail both in seats and beds or can they opt out of acceptance? Presumably they get a small % of open tickets valid on CS through ORCATS, if this remains so then they must accept those tickets, can they withdraw from that and only allow inclusive fares?

Ah right, fair enough, I only went in to a train running on the following day to check the plan.

So on berth numbering, on the mk3s I suspect that Standard berths will take the even numbers 2-8 and First the odds 9-23. That'll explain why the booking was showing as 8L/8U.

 

[Kite159]

So which locos made it to London this morning? (Just to give me a rough idea what I might be having on the Highlander tonight)

 

[Mag_seven]

So which locos made it to London this morning? (Just to give me a rough idea what I might be having on the Highlander tonight)

92010 should be your loco on 1S25 tonight. Usual disclaimers apply.

 

[Steveman]

I have traveled a fair deal on the sleeper over the years but now I won't travel again with these extortionate prices.

 

[Highlandspring]

1Y11 failed at Tulloch, 37516 enroute to assist...

 

[Kite159]

92010 should be your loco on 1S25 tonight. Usual disclaimers apply.

Thanks

 

[TimboM]

1Y11 failed at Tulloch, 37516 enroute to assist...

Probably explains why 73968 which went to Polmadie yesterday for testing with the Mk5s is en route back to Craigentinny this morning.

 

[TimboM]

I see - well, maybe that makes sense to some extent.
I had a look at other railcard terms.
Disabled railcard - seems to imply that the 1/3 off still applies to all sleeper tickets
YP - implies that it applies but uses the 'old' ticket names
Senior - same as YP.

I think the explanation sounds sensible, but with the whole change of offering (when the new stock comes in!) it's difficult (impossible?) to substantiate it - and I suspect CS know that.

 

[Highlandspring]

Correction - wrote Tulloch but meant Rannoch! Traction motor fault on 73971.

 

[TimboM]

So which locos made it to London this morning? (Just to give me a rough idea what I might be having on the Highlander tonight)

92010 should be your loco on 1S25 tonight. Usual disclaimers apply.

92010 most likely as @Mag_seven says. The only other realistic option is 92033 - which completed its exam yesterday and should be swapping in for 92043 which came south on the Lowlander last night and due to be stopped for its exam. I expect 033 will take 043's place on the Lowlander rotation, but they could always switch it around.