EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[NSEFAN]

Being anti EU and being conservative are not interchangeable. I know people who are very economically conservative but still think that the best trade options for the UK are for us to be in the EU.

 

[fowler9]

Which did you think, the idea that people become more conservative, or the idea that this is a myth?

The idea that people become more conservative is a myth, it worked for a while. That idea would work now if as time went on everyone was still able to afford property which may gradually make them become more conservative, that isn't the case.

 

[furnessvale]

The idea that people become more conservative is a myth, it worked for a while. That idea would work now if as time went on everyone was still able to afford property which may gradually make them become more conservative, that isn't the case.

Approx 140.000 houses are built for sale in England alone annually. I would suggest that at least dilutes your argument. Over and above that, many younger people also inherit property which could alter their outlook on life.

 

[fowler9]

Approx 140.000 houses are built for sale in England alone annually. I would suggest that at least dilutes your argument. Over and above that, many younger people also inherit property which could alter their outlook on life.

All the people inheriting property grew up in a very different world. Also a lot of the new builds are built where other property was knocked down.

 

[Busaholic]

I think he means the idea is that people get older and settled with their home, car blah blah are more likely to become conservative and hence anti-EU. I think its a bit of a myth to be honest.

You could say the conservative (i.e. anti-change) position would be for the U.K. to remain within the EU, for fear of being in a far worse off position post-Brexit. I can't now pretend that I'm in any other demographic than 'old' but of my family and friends in that same demographic I only know of one who voted to leave, and even she had regretted it by the following day! Most of these people were not university educated or ever had high=powered jobs.

 

[furnessvale]

You could say the conservative (i.e. anti-change) position would be for the U.K. to remain within the EU, for fear of being in a far worse off position post-Brexit. I can't now pretend that I'm in any other demographic than 'old' but of my family and friends in that same demographic I only know of one who voted to leave, and even she had regretted it by the following day! Most of these people were not university educated or ever had high=powered jobs.

I read this so often but although I am in the same demographic as you, the exact opposite occurred and virtually everyone is a Brexiter.

I can only assume that we all tend to have a circle of friends which predates the vote but we tend to have similar views.

 

[Busaholic]

I read this so often but although I am in the same demographic as you, the exact opposite occurred and virtually everyone is a Brexiter.

I can only assume that we all tend to have a circle of friends which predates the vote but we tend to have similar views.

I was actually quite surprised that a couple of my close friends had voted to remain: from some of their political comments over the years I'd have expected them to be Brexiteers.

 

[northwichcat]

I was actually quite surprised that a couple of my close friends had voted to remain: from some of their political comments over the years I'd have expected them to be Brexiteers.

It was reported yesterday Peter Stringfellow, who once supported UKIP and has been a Conservative Party member, said he might join the Lib Dems because he no longer agrees with Brexit.

I've also observed how many people in their 30s used to be Conservative supporters because they came from Conservative supporting families but are now anti-Tory.

 

[Howardh]

It was reported yesterday Peter Stringfellow, who once supported UKIP and has been a Conservative Party member, said he might join the Lib Dems because he no longer agrees with Brexit.

no longer agrees with Brexit (as a whole) or no longer agrees because of the way Brexit's going (ie not hard)?
When it all boils down there will be a lot - probably on both sides - changing their mind; if it's fluffy-soft then hard-line remainers such as me will settle down and breath a sight of relief, bt hard-cases on the Brexit side might be frothing at the mouth because I'm happy.
But if we can get Tory donors - the ones with the mega £££'s to come down on remain then all the better.

 

[northwichcat]

no longer agrees with Brexit (as a whole) or no longer agrees because of the way Brexit's going (ie not hard)?
When it all boils down there will be a lot - probably on both sides - changing their mind; if it's fluffy-soft then hard-line remainers such as me will settle down and breath a sight of relief, bt hard-cases on the Brexit side might be frothing at the mouth because I'm happy.
But if we can get Tory donors - the ones with the mega £££'s to come down on remain then all the better.

Flamboyant Tory donor Peter Stringfellow today ditched the party in protest over its stance on Brexit.

The nightclub owner said he turned his back on the Conservatives because he is strongly opposed to the country “sleep-walking” towards quitting the European Union.

He spoke out as a report warned that up to 87,000 jobs in London are at risk if Britain plunges out of the EU without a new trade deal, with the City most in danger.

In an exclusive interview with the Standard, Mr Stringfellow said: “I’m quitting the Tories unless they change their direction and lead us towards Remain.

"I can’t live with the fact that I’m supporting a party that is totally against what I think is good for our country.”

In a twist, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage also today suggested that a second referendum should be held to end the division in the country over Brexit.

Mr Stringfellow, 77, who has donated more than £40,000 to the Tories personally or through his Covent Garden venue since 2003, said he had “never known our country so divided”. He wants the public to have another say on Brexit, hopefully imminently, before the March 2019 departure date.

He believes the “price is too high” for the UK to leave, due to both the extra billions being spent on preparing for Brexit and the longer-term economic consequences. “I will leave with a heavy heart because I’ve been with the Conservatives through thick and thin,” he said. “We are all sleep-walking towards Brexit. When my time comes I want people to remember that I did stand up and say ‘Remain’.”

Mr Stringfellow argued that Britain was a “small nation” in a “massively fast-growing world” and should remain part of the EU. “We are heading for, if not disaster, certainly not something that is good for the future of Great Britain,” he said. He emphasised his “respect” for Theresa May, but branded this week’s reshuffle as “very weak”. He added: “She is a Remainer. I would like Mrs May to follow her heart, stand up and go into the history books as the Prime Minister who said ‘enough is enough’.”

He dismissed Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn as offering false promises. Stressing that he was a long-time Tory voter and an “aspirational” person, he added: “If they carry on with Brexit, I will stop supporting them immediately and would join Vince Cable and the Lib Dems.”

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...rvative-party-in-brexit-protest-a3737561.html

 

[bramling]

I only know of one who voted to leave, and even she had regretted it by the following day!

If someone is so fluffy that they can change their mind within 24 hours, surely it's a bit of a waste of everyone's time them bothering to vote at all.

 

[Howardh]

If someone is so fluffy that they can change their mind within 24 hours, surely it's a bit of a waste of everyone's time them bothering to vote at all.

...or be Prime Minister. Just a thought.

 

[fowler9]

...or be Prime Minister. Just a thought.

Ha ha. Strong and stable, strong and stable.

 

[Howardh]

Is the worm turning? After all, you can't have a CTA with Ireland AND a hard Brexit which means the worm wants to keep us in. http://uk.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-brexit-stay-eu-soft-brexit-farage-2018-1

• Boris Johnson believes that Theresa May will cave in to demands for a soft Brexit.
• He reportedly told friends the UK would be "better off staying in" than accept this.
• Boris is due to make a major speech calling for a "liberal Brexit."
• Johnson's comments follow Nigel Farage's call for a second Brexit referendum.

LONDON — The foreign secretary has reportedly told friends that he would rather stay in the EU than accept a soft Brexit.

According to The Sun, Boris Johnson told allies that any Brexit result which left Britain outside of the EU, but still closely aligned to it, would be a "total waste of time," adding that "I’d rather us stay in than leave like that."

A separate report by Politico on Monday confirms this, stating that Johnson told allies that calls for Britain to remain closely aligned to EU rules and regulations after Brexit were "mad," adding that: "You’d be better off staying in."

He reportedly told friends that he believes Theresa May would be "worn down" by civil servants and persuaded to accept a bad Brexit deal that would leave Britain in a similar relationship to the EU as Norway.

Friends of Johnson have previously told Business Insider that the foreign secretary never had any intention of leaving the EU, but joined the Leave campaign purely out of his ambition to win the Conservative leadership.



Norway is not a member of the EU but retains full access to the Single Market in exchange for accepting freedom of movement and other EU rules and regulations.

The foreign secretary is due to make a speech in the coming weeks arguing for a "liberal Brexit" freed from ties to the EU.

Johnson's comments follow those made by his fellow Leave campaigner Nigel Farage, who told the Observer newspaper at the weekend that Brexiteers were losing the argument on Brexit due to Remain campaigners "making all the running."

What was that about "changing your mind"??

 

[Busaholic]

If someone is so fluffy that they can change their mind within 24 hours, surely it's a bit of a waste of everyone's time them bothering to vote at all.

Not the case: because she is disabled she had a Postal Vote, which she exercised immediately on receipt. This was about four weeks before Referendum Day. She admitted to being swayed by the Daily Mail which a neighbour used to pass on to her every day. She has seen the error of her ways.

 

[Busaholic]

Is the worm turning? After all, you can't have a CTA with Ireland AND a hard Brexit which means the worm wants to keep us in. http://uk.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-brexit-stay-eu-soft-brexit-farage-2018-1
What was that about "changing your mind"??

The first stage in his latest, never-ending quest to get to the top of the greasy pole. The man will say anything if he can achieve that. The biggest con artist of the lot.

 

[Howardh]

The first stage in his latest, never-ending quest to get to the top of the greasy pole. The man will say anything if he can achieve that. The biggest con artist of the lot.

He certainly doesn't want to lead the Tories through or after Brexit, he walked away when he had the chance. So his only alternative is to lead the Tories if we don't leave the EU, a muche easier ride for him, and he can blame remaining on May, although Boris's default 2015 position was remain anyway?
I wouldn't trust him in charge of my bus ticket. Which way's the wind blowing, Boris??

 

[SteveP29]

Approx 140.000 houses are built for sale in England alone annually.

Not all of those 140,000 homes are being bought by 140,000 families or individuals to live in are they, a good proportion of them will be going to BTL landlords, councils and housing associations.

 

[furnessvale]

Not all of those 140,000 homes are being bought by 140,000 families or individuals to live in are they, a good proportion of them will be going to BTL landlords, councils and housing associations.

Councils and Housing Associations are over and above that figure. I do not have BTL figures but I doubt they are significant in the big picture, especially as a percentage of Housing Association properties are bought on shared tenancy/ownership terms and would need to be added to the headline figure.

 

[birchesgreen]

There is now a campaign, backed by cabinet ministers, to force the Royal Mail to issue Brexit stamps, i'm glad to see the priorities are correct

 

[nlogax]

There is now a campaign, backed by cabinet ministers, to force the Royal Mail to issue Brexit stamps, i'm glad to see the priorities are correct

I hope they cost £350 million per stamp and don't allow you to post anything beyond Dover.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Being anti EU and being conservative are not interchangeable. I know people who are very economically conservative but still think that the best trade options for the UK are for us to be in the EU.

Two of these people that you refer to live in our residence who both voted "Remain" at the referendum and neither of us have changed our views one iota regarding that matter. I am 72, Patricia is 76.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is now a campaign, backed by cabinet ministers, to force the Royal Mail to issue Brexit stamps, i'm glad to see the priorities are correct

For very many years, Royal Mail have issued a number of sets of special postage stamps each year, like many other countries. You often see these in what is termed Presentation Packs and these are aimed at the philatelist market, but there is usually a planned programme going forward that covers the production of these.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not all of those 140,000 homes are being bought by 140,000 families or individuals to live in are they, a good proportion of them will be going to BTL landlords, councils and housing associations.

Has there been any recent extra financial costs imposed upon those in the "buy-to-let" market?

 

[EM2]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42861496

EU agrees Brexit 'transition' negotiation guidelines

The transition period - also referred to as an implementation period - is seen as a way to minimise disruption when the UK leaves the EU for things like business, holidaymakers and security.

It will also allow more time to finalise the terms of the UK's post-Brexit relations with the EU.

In their guidelines, the EU say:

• All EU rules and regulations - as well as EU rule changes adopted after March 2019 - should apply in the UK during the transition phase
• There can be no "cherry picking" on the single market - so free movement into the UK should continue
• The UK will not be involved in the decision-making of EU bodies
• Work should continue on finding a solution to the Northern Ireland border question, one of the main sticking points in the first round of negotiations

Some in the UK are unhappy at the idea that the UK will have to follow the rules of the single market and the customs union, including freedom of movement for EU citizens, but will lose its voting rights.

Mrs May's Brexit ''inner circle'' of senior ministers met in sub-committee on Monday morning to discuss how the transitional phase could work, including the UK's demand that it be free to negotiate trade deals with other countries during the period.

A Downing Street spokesman said: ''There is obviously going to be a negotiation on what the implementation period looks like.

''The formal directives will be released this afternoon. This will be a negotiation and there will naturally be some distance in the detail of our starting positions."

EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier is to update the European Council later on the state of play in the negotiations before holding a press conference.

 

[northwichcat]

There is now a campaign, backed by cabinet ministers, to force the Royal Mail to issue Brexit stamps, i'm glad to see the priorities are correct

If they hadn't privitised Royal Mail then they wouldn't have to force them.

 

[zuriblue]

All right for some

https://twitter.com/TonyTassell/sta...io/iframe/twitter.min.html#957890689022427136

The billionaire backer of the pro-Hard Brexit Legatum Institute has taken Maltese Citizenship which gives him EU Citizenship.

The FT article is behind a paywall but Yahoo Finance says:

Christopher Chandler, the New Zealand-born billionaire backer of one of the most vocal think tanks behind Brexit, has secured EU citizenship via Malta.

Chandler is behind the Legatum Group, a Dubai-based investment company that funds the Legatum Institute Foundation, a London-based think tank that supports hard Brexit.

Since the UK voted to leave the EU in June 2016, the Legatum Institute Foundation has hired several staffers with links to the leave campaign, including Matthew Elliott, who co-founded the official campaign to leave the EU and Radomir Tylecote, a Eurosceptic academic.

David Davis, the Brexit secretary, was paid £5,000 to give a speech at Legatum in 2010.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/p...-gets-eu-citizenship-via-malta-143415367.html

 

[EM2]

Lack of migrant workers left food rotting in UK fields last year, data reveals
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...d-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals

Fruit and vegetable farms across the UK were left short of thousands of migrant workers in 2017, leaving some produce to rot in the fields and farmers suffering big losses.

More than 4,300 vacancies went unfilled, according to new survey data from the National Farmers Union (NFU), which covers about half the horticultural labour market. The survey, seen exclusively by the Guardian, shows more than 99% of the seasonal workers recruited came from eastern Europe, with just 0.6% from the UK.

Since the vote to leave the European Union in 2016, growers have warned repeatedly of damaging labour shortages, with recruiters reporting that Brexit has created the perception among foreign workers that the UK is xenophobic and racist.

The government, which has pledged to reduce immigration, has so far rejected calls to reinstate a seasonal agricultural workers scheme (Saws). Facing uncertainty over labour, some farmers have begun moving their production overseas.

The NFU labour survey found that an average of 12.5% of vacancies went unfilled in 2017, the first time there has been a shortfall since the survey began in 2014. The proportion of workers returning to work in the UK after previous years is also dropping fast, from 41% in 2016 to 29% in 2017. The fall in the value of the pound after the Brexit vote has also helped make the UK less attractive.

Documents released to the Guardian under freedom of information rules from the government’s Saws Transition Working Group reveal that officials accepted that some farms were “struggling” as far back as July.

The group, comprised of government, growers and recruiters, discussed “creative options such as pick your own and working holidays, drawing on the Australia or New Zealand models”, according to a released meeting agenda from September, and considered a report that suggested cutting food waste would reduce the need for pickers.


“Growers are wondering how they are going to get through the [2018] season,” said Alison Capper, chair of the NFU’s horticulture board. “There is an element of desperation.” She said numerous farms had been forced to leave produce to rot due to lack of labour, but that they did not publicise this because of fears of undermining the confidence of their supermarket customers.

The worst shortfall of labour in 2017 was in the crucial harvest month of September, when 29% of vacancies were unfilled. In Capper’s own apple orchards, 100 bins of Gala eating apples went unpicked, became overripe and had to be sent for juice instead, leading to a £30,000 loss.

Minette Batters, NFU deputy president, has also said fruit and vegetables have rotted in fields and said government action was desperately needed: “This is the number one issue for growers. We don’t see it as an immigration problem – it’s about people that come here, are fully regulated and go home again. The Conservative party seem to have taken a very hard line approach.”

Batters said the horticulture sector had been trying to expand, to provide more homegrown produce: “When we have the climatic conditions to be very successful growers of fruit and veg, it seems a sacrilege not to be making the most of that.”

Neil Parish MP, chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, said: “The nationwide shortage of labour is becoming an agricultural crisis for UK farms. It is unacceptable that perfectly good food is rotting in fields. At a time of uncertainty around our future trading relationships, we should be increasing our domestic food security rather than our reliance on imported foodstuffs.”

“The government is not acknowledging the scale of the issue,” he said. Last April, the committee called for “urgent measures” and launched a new enquiry on Monday.

The Labour party is committed to reinstating the Saws and shadow environment secretary Sue Hayman said: “Michael Gove and Theresa May cannot stick their heads in the sand forever. There are serious questions about the supply, affordability and quality of food we can expect after we leave the EU.”

A government spokeswoman said: “The government places great value on the UK’s food and farming industries. Until we have left the EU, the UK will remain a member and employers in the agricultural and food processing sectors are free to continue to recruit EU workers.”

She said the prime minister had also proposed a further implementation period of two years, during which registered EU citizens can come work in the UK. The government has commissioned expert advice from the Migration Advisory Committee, but that is due to report in September, after the 2018 growing season.

The UK’s 60-year-old Saws scheme was closed in 2013, ahead of the end of immigration restrictions on workers from Bulgaria and Romania, which provide about two-thirds of the UK’s pickers.

Capper is unimpressed by the suggestion of holiday workers filling the labour gap: “[Australia and New Zealand] do have a working holiday visa scheme, but the vast majority of their fresh produce is picked by people on a seasonal workers scheme from Tonga and Samoa, the same way as our old Saws,” she said.

Haygrove raspberry and blueberry farm in Ledbury, Herefordshire is moving some of its growing to Yunnan province in China because of uncertainty over migrant labour. “It is one of many,” said Capper. “There are lots of businesses looking at other parts of Europe, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, China. We are disinvesting in British production which is just appalling.”

 

[Dentonian]

There is now a campaign, backed by cabinet ministers, to force the Royal Mail to issue Brexit stamps, i'm glad to see the priorities are correct

The Royal Mail have a history of twisting political geography, so I'm sure they will aquiece. They have never recognised Greater Manchester as a county, but unless I'm mistaken, did recognise all the other Met counties from 1974. This has led to various negative images, from the Manchester City Region (as some would now call it) being demographically smaller than it actually is, to the myth perpetuated in some corners that Man City fans all come from Stockport. The latter being because many Manchester overspill estates and other residential areas, have SK post codes.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The Royal Mail have a history of twisting political geography, so I'm sure they will aquiece. They have never recognised Greater Manchester as a county, but unless I'm mistaken, did recognise all the other Met counties from 1974. This has led to various negative images, from the Manchester City Region (as some would now call it) being demographically smaller than it actually is, to the myth perpetuated in some corners that Man City fans all come from Stockport. The latter being because many Manchester overspill estates and other residential areas, have SK post codes.

So I had a look here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_postage_stamps

and found no trace of any stamps referencing the (former) Metropolitan Counties. Now of course a Wikipedia article could be wrong but I suspect there are enough die hard philatelists around that we can trust this one to be accurate. Your assertion that the Post Office is somehow responsible for negative images of the Greater Manchester area is therefore a figment of your imagination. And surely the overspill estates housing large numbers of City fans are Wythenshawe (M22/M23) and Langley (M24).

Also note that the Post Office did issue stamps commemorating both the UK's joining of the EEC and the first direct elections to the European Parliament. It would be perfectly appropriate then to issue stamps to commemorate something as impactful as Brexit!