Southeastern Poor Performance Continues

[yorksrob]

Yes exactly. Minimal turnarounds as Charing Cross is now the main bottleneck on the route. 6 platforms and only 1-3 are available for 12 car networkers.

7 minutes for an 8-10 car, 10 minutes for a 12 car is the current minimum. If a train arrives 2-3 minutes late in the peak it will almost certainly be leaving late on its next journey.

Even these turnarounds can be very difficult to achieve when the platform is so crowded that it’s difficult for the driver to fight through the hoardes pushing and shoving towards the ticket barriers!

Well, they managed it with slam door trains, so one would expect these modern units to be more efficient.

 

[Bromley boy]

Well, they managed it with slam door trains, so one would expect these modern units to be more efficient.

They’re probably less efficient!

With slammers the inbound trains were empty before they’d even stopped, and on departure if someone got trapped in doors/fell out and got killed it was their own fault.

Bring them back, I say!

EDIT: and if you compare ridership levels during (more efficient!) slammer days to now, the difference is pretty eye opening.

 

[yorksrob]

They’re probably less efficient!

With slammers the inbound trains were empty before they’d even stopped, and on departure if someone got trapped in doors/fell out and got killed it was their own fault.

Bring them back, I say!

Well, they were more comfortable, and didn't take ten minutes to get out of once they'd stopped, so yes, I would agree.

 

[bramling]

About another 35-40 4 car units would bring every thing up to max length non HS1 wise if it had SDO to deal with Woolwich Dockyard and CHX but then you need the space to maintain and store it too. Most Vic - Orpington Platforms are 9 car so 10car with SDO might be an option there. ATO might help with CST capacity.

SDO at Charing Cross is not ideal at all, and presumably if everything was 12 cars then there may also be a slight performance impact with trains taking that little bit longer to clear junctions, et cetera. It does seem like whatever is done there simply is no magic solution to the basic issue which is too much being asked of the infrastructure as it is.

How many 8-car trains are there today which could, today, be readily extended to 10-car if rolling stock were available?

On the tube stepping back makes a lot of sense. I doubt 36tph (or whatever it is) on the Victoria line would be possible without it!

I think the sheer complexity of the mainline network changes this.

At Charing Cross in the AM peak a metro train arriving from Dartford or Hayes, for example, may have a driver who only signs networkers/376s and will typically depart empty or head back in service to different destination.

Contrast this with a mainline train operated by driver and guard, who only sign 375s and will have spent 2+ hours working a coastal mainline service to London. They often work their train empties to Grove park depot, or similar.

These crews are not interchangeable and, with minimal turnarounds, the approach of rosters seems to be to keep the driver with the train wherever possible.

If any of these crews are delayed/displaced, no replacements will be available, and the whole pack of cards falls apart very quickly indeed!

You could, perhaps, do it by splitting Charing Cross into two stations - with metro services using platforms 1 to 3, and mainline using platforms 4 to 6 (which IIRC is not a million miles from how it actually does work?), and have stepping back for the metro services.

But there are still lots of issues to work through, just a few random issues which come to mind:

On LU most of the places where stepping back happens are at termini where you haven’t got full loads emptying out. I suppose many alight at London Bridge and Waterloo East, but if the train is still heavily loaded at Charing Cross then it is going to cause issues with too many people and too many trains all interacting in too short a time.

Secondly it still doesn’t solve the issue of trains having a slow run into the terminus. There’s a difference between 125m long Victoria Line train coming into and leaving Brixton at basically line speed under ATO, and a manually driven 250m Networker entering a tight terminal berth platform and then leaving over slow speed pointwork.

Then you have the problem that trains will be being reformed at short notice to keep things moving. Okay at Brixton where the passenger doesn’t know any different between two Walthamstow trains, jus about tolerable at Aldgate where only a proportion will be going to different destinations, but potentially a problem at Charing Cross - especially in the evening peak when dealing with high volumes of departing passengers.

Unfeasible for the mainline routes as you still have the basic problem that a 2-hour journey from somewhere like Ramsgate or Hastings simply doesn’t mix well with a quick turnaround - there’s just too much scope for trains to run late and out of turn.

What could help, a bit, is if you had a batch of drivers booking on at the high peak and able to be in position and take their train out promptly as soon as possible after arrival. But again you’re still constrained by the time taken for the train to run in and out and by other things like passenger movements. Also it introduces a new problem if the booked relieving driver doesn’t book on. So kind of solving one problem and introducing new ones, which basically sums up the Southeastern situation all round.

One could make stepping back work for the metro routes, but probably only by doing a lot of simplifying. So reduce things to a handful of distinct routes and ideally all with identical stopping patterns, and all the trains would have to be interchangeable. Not necessarily all the same type, but all the same length able to be reformed into a different service at zero notice with no consequence (now bear in mind that a lot of maintenance happens between the peaks, so now the depot may not be getting the train they were expecting...).

 

[bramling]

I seem to recall that Charing X was diagrammed on perpetual 7 min turnrounds - with interworking stock -probably still is.

The awful complexity can be summarised by a log item that an 8 min start (for good reasons) at Orpington one morning - racked up a 600 min delay total in reactionary delay. That is how tight the SE is ?

Yep, and then consider how likely it is for a relatively small delay like 8 mins to notch up on a 2-hour mainline journey in from Ramsgate or Hastings.

 

[Bromley boy]

You could, perhaps, do it by splitting Charing Cross into two stations - with metro services using platforms 1 to 3, and mainline using platforms 4 to 6 (which IIRC is not a million miles from how it actually does work?), and have stepping back for the metro services.

That’s a good idea. But it seems to have gone beyond that on the sense that 12 car networkers can only use platforms 1-3, but beyond that it’s a free for all. 375s use all platforms and it’s not unusual to change ends on a 12 car networker on p2 and see a crush loaded 375 pulling into p1!

On LU most of the places where stepping back happens are at termini where you haven’t got full loads emptying out. I suppose many alight at London Bridge and Waterloo East, but if the train is still heavily loaded at Charing Cross then it is going to cause issues with too many people and too many trains all interacting in too short a time.

Secondly it still doesn’t solve the issue of trains having a slow run into the terminus. There’s a difference between 125m long Victoria Line train coming into and leaving Brixton at basically line speed under ATO, and a manually driven 250m Networker entering a tight terminal berth platform and then leaving over slow speed pointwork.

Yes exactly - tight platforms, 15mph over the pointwork and sub 10mph over the TPWS grids. I’m sure ATO would make things somewhat better (god knows when that will happen?!), by imposing a uniform approach speed. But many delays aren’t so much down to approach speed as to failure to gain interlock on departing due to doors held open etc. Incoming trains are held in no mans land as the departure has the road and has been delayed.

Then you have the problem that trains will be being reformed at short notice to keep things moving. Okay at Brixton where the passenger doesn’t know any different between two Walthamstow trains, jus about tolerable at Aldgate where only a proportion will be going to different destinations, but potentially a problem at Charing Cross - especially in the evening peak when dealing with high volumes of departing passengers.

Exactly right. You have the “Amber Rudd express” (or equivalent), fast to high brooms, and various shades of mainliner v diminishing levels of all shacks networker/376.

Mainliners are still prioritised over stoppers / maybe that should be changed given how many passengers travel on each!

What could help, a bit, is if you had a batch of drivers booking on at the high peak and able to be in position and take their train out promptly as soon as possible after arrival. But again you’re still constrained by the time taken for the train to run in and out and by other things like passenger movements. Also it introduces a new problem if the booked relieving driver doesn’t book on. So kind of solving one problem and introducing new ones, which basically sums up the Southeastern situation all round.

The bare minimum of drivers booking on in accordance with the tidal flow it’s what’s now achieved. A succession of drivers booking on, from 03:30-0800 from ramsgate to grove park. If they’re displaced things are basically b*ggered - a Gillingham driver doesn’t sign the same routes and traction as an orpington driver etc.

Hither Green station is a sight to behold in the morning peak - one mainliner will hammer through p1 at linespeed as the headlights of the next will be rounding the corner from grove park. 3 metros will be visible on the slows. Double blocking there can be painful!

Keeping drivers with trains, delay recovery etc., London Bridge works are all helping. Nothing will fundamentally improve in the next few years beyond this!

Overall it’s a complex network. It’s impressive to see what is squeezed out of the existing infrastructure, in my view!

 

[Max]

'Normal' service resumed this morning with lots of delays into Charing Cross from London Bridge. My driver has just apologised but advised he had no idea of the reason for the delay!

 

[Class465fan]

I don't know if anyone has already discussed this but whenever a train e.g Gillingham semi fast gets delayed for 15 minutes they will call at additional stations instead of reducing stations. Why are they doing this?

 

[Darandio]

That daily journey from Redcar would be interesting!

It certainly would!

 

[al78]

They’re probably less efficient!

With slammers the inbound trains were empty before they’d even stopped, and on departure if someone got trapped in doors/fell out and got killed it was their own fault.

Bring them back, I say!

EDIT: and if you compare ridership levels during (more efficient!) slammer days to now, the difference is pretty eye opening.

Yeah right, it's only human life after all, who cares about other people anyway. Perhaps we should do away with level crossing barriers as well, if people cross without looking properly and get hit by a train that is their fault as well.

On the other hand, perhaps we should appreciate we live in a civilized society and as such we don't inflict the death penalty for a mistake, careless or otherwise, so we design our systems with the acknowledgement that people are not perfect and do silly things occasionally. If that results in a slight reduction in time efficiency then so be it, human life is more important than a few minutes.

 

[theageofthetra]

I don't know if anyone has already discussed this but whenever a train e.g Gillingham semi fast gets delayed for 15 minutes they will call at additional stations instead of reducing stations. Why are they doing this?

The stopper in front/behind may have been cancelled.

 

[Economist]

Talking of Hither Green, in the old old days (pre-1967), I believe the linespeed used to be 90mph on the fasts through the station and 60mph through Parks Bridge.

Will be interesting to see how everything works out once the Thameslink services go through London Bridge once again.

 

[Bromley boy]

Yeah right, it's only human life after all, who cares about other people anyway. Perhaps we should do away with level crossing barriers as well, if people cross without looking properly and get hit by a train that is their fault as well.

What a bizarre comment.

The majority of level crossings in the U.K. are unbarriered foot crossings, of various types. These rely on good old fashioned common sense to use! Just like slam door trains they are perfectly safe when used correctly.

On the other hand, perhaps we should appreciate we live in a civilized society and as such we don't inflict the death penalty for a mistake, careless or otherwise, so we design our systems with the acknowledgement that people are not perfect and do silly things occasionally. If that results in a slight reduction in time efficiency then so be it, human life is more important than a few minutes.

Death penalty? Huh? We are talking about accidents.

If I walk out into the road without looking and am mown down by a lorry, or if I carelessly electrocute myself with a plug socket at home, have I been executed, then?

There’s nothing uncivilised about expecting people to exercise a little common sense and personal responsibility.

 

[ScotGG]

Problems again today. 100% rate of issues since New Year in the area.

London Bridge related or not frustration is building.

 

[Failed Unit]

Again this statement is incorrect. What are you basing it on?

PPM has been over 80% most days, right time 50-70%.

I look at these figures with a great degree of Envy. The posters great Northern are putting out struggle to hit 40% right time on any route.

Maybe Southeastern is doing something right.

 

[Class465fan]

Gillingham services are now cancelled due to another "signalling issue"

 

[Bromley boy]

Gillingham services are now cancelled due to another "signalling issue"

Track circuit failure (network rail infrastructure, remember), trains being talked past signals.

 

[Class465fan]

How long does it take to sort out a signal fault?

 

[Darandio]

How long does it take to sort out a signal fault?

How long is a piece of string? Surely it depends on the scale of the fault?

 

[Bromley boy]

How long does it take to sort out a signal fault?

How long is a piece of string?

 

[Bromley boy]

How long is a piece of string? Surely it depends on the scale of the fault?

Great minds!

EDIT: and no doubt other factors such as:
- location and accessibility of the fault;
- location of the nearest technicians who can fix it, and their travel time.

 

[bb21]

As I said before I find it odd that people who are supposedly railway enthusiasts don’t understand how a train breaking down at one point will rapidly affect other parts of the network.

People who are enthusiasts can sometimes be more difficult to deal with because some like to pretend (or even worse, genuinely believe) that they know best. These days it appears almost everyone can run a better railway barring the professionals themselves.

Obviously it isn't everyone, but that irritating minority are virtually impossible to deal with. The industry isn't perfect, but there are plenty of people working their hardest to make things work, and dare I say, it takes time for teething problems to be ironed out after major projects and for things to settle down. Perhaps I will be accused of blindly defending SouthEastern now, but they haven't done too badly in the last 12 months, on many fronts.

Having read this thread I would like to think it is more about some people letting off steam. They probably appreciate that the answers given are true, but still just want to have a pop at the TOC because tbf they have paid a pretty sum to travel in the peak and it can be very frustrating when things go wrong for a few days in a row. I wouldn't like to think anyone involved in this thread would be so blind to actual facts just because they don't like it.

Steam, that's all it is.

 

[Frontera2]

Just to add some context here, and yes I declare an interest..

As of 10:00 yesterday morning, Southeastern's PPM was 96.5% for the day as a whole and 80.0% on time. No, not up to 5 minutes late but ON TIME. Given the number of trains / routes that are run by Southeastern that's pretty good going by my book and demonstrates that it's not all bad.

Now, whilst any delay be it 1 minute or 10 is something to avoid and on time should mean just that, I do wonder if passengers in the South East are less tolerant / more impatient of even minor delays.

On Southeasterns Twitter feed you will often see people hurling abuse at the company because their train is 1 or 2 minutes late. Now maybe I'm talking out of turn but is a 1 minute delay really that bad? If you're living your life in a way that such a minor delay can have such and adverse impact then maybe something isn't quite right?

Looking at other TOC feeds away from the south east, minor delays just don't seem to generate the same amount of vitriol?

 

[neilm]

Just to add some context here, and yes I declare an interest..

As of 10:00 yesterday morning, Southeastern's PPM was 96.5% for the day as a whole and 80.0% on time. No, not up to 5 minutes late but ON TIME. Given the number of trains / routes that are run by Southeastern that's pretty good going by my book and demonstrates that it's not all bad.

Now, whilst any delay be it 1 minute or 10 is something to avoid and on time should mean just that, I do wonder if passengers in the South East are less tolerant / more impatient of even minor delays.

On Southeasterns Twitter feed you will often see people hurling abuse at the company because their train is 1 or 2 minutes late. Now maybe I'm talking out of turn but is a 1 minute delay really that bad? If you're living your life in a way that such a minor delay can have such and adverse impact then maybe something isn't quite right?

Looking at other TOC feeds away from the south east, minor delays just don't seem to generate the same amount of vitriol?

Compared to Southern/GTR those numbers are a dream, even last month it was only 74% for PPM and only 45% for Right Time for Southern.

I would take SE Railway service levels any day.

 

[bb21]

80% Right Time is damn good may I say. GTR also had the odd one here and there recently. SWR looks to be the only ones really struggling atm.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Don't worry, this time in 8 months, Stagecoach would have moved from SWR to SER

 

[ScotGG]

The Metro routes are 71% today. Not bad compared to some but not anything to shout about.

What's perhaps worse is that SE Networkers are pretty disgusting and probably the worst stock for cleanliness in London.

 

[otomous]

The Metro routes are 71% today. Not bad compared to some but not anything to shout about.

What's perhaps worse is that SE Networkers are pretty disgusting and probably the worst stock for cleanliness in London.

Well an army of cleaners descends on them at termini, and does the best job they can during a fast turnaround. Don’t want a dirty train? Don’t leave your filth on there.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

On Southeasterns Twitter feed you will often see people hurling abuse at the company because their train is 1 or 2 minutes late. Now maybe I'm talking out of turn but is a 1 minute delay really that bad? If you're living your life in a way that such a minor delay can have such and adverse impact then maybe something isn't quite right?

Looking at other TOC feeds away from the south east, minor delays just don't seem to generate the same amount of vitriol?

I thought I was the only person to notice this. On other networks (with far worse PPMs), people grumble and complain occasionally, but in Kent and SE London, if a Southeastern service left on time and the punter missed it because they were still running down the stairs, you'd think @Se_Railway had personally killed their cat or something. I see some very aggressive, even borderline abusive tweets from passengers and if you scroll back through their feed, seem to do it on an almost daily basis. I sometimes wonder if people from Kent are just generally a lot more vocal than other regions.

As for things they do have a right to be unhappy about: Networkers (and 376 Metro-stars) are incredibly grubby, and the interiors have not aged well, versus say Southern's 455s, which are obviously much older but don't feel nearly as manky on the inside. At this point, I don't think having an army of cleaners will fix the state of the Networkers - a refurb might now be the only option, but that's a topic for another thread.

 

[bb21]

I would not sit down anywhere on the 376s, because they look that hideous inside, not helped with at least one person putting his feet on almost every journey I have done so far on the 376s. I normally instruct people very firmly to keep their feet off when I walk through one of our trains and so far no one has yet refused but I have very rarely seen anyone else do it across the network.

Networkers also smell funny inside to me, not sure whether it is because they haven't been ventilated well. Some stank of urine and I had to report a couple recently.

They could all do with a nice refresh inside.