Southeastern Poor Performance Continues

[Darandio]

1 day out of 12 is appalling!

A couple of days it only left 1 or 2 minutes late, one of them arrived at Dartford on time. One day it left Cannon Street 6 late, still made it to Dartford on time. Departing late on xx amount of days isn't the whole picture.

I don't work for Southeastern.

 

[Domh245]

Departing late on xx amount of days isn't the whole picture.

At times like these, recenttraintimes.co.uk is quite handy. Looking at the 1849 on this page shows a 56% RT(5 mins) arrival in Dartford. It admittedly doesn't show departure times, but arguably the arrival time at any given station is more important.

 

[otomous]

Prevention is better than cure. I am not a railway engineer but they should really keep on top of them and rest of the Victorian infrastructure. Maximising spreading resources is important.


1 day out of 12 is appalling!

If the timetable was altered to be more like a London bus timetable, ie, trains leave for Greenwich line roughly every ten minutes, would that be preferable? Because that's a more realistic service pattern than an exact time, given the peak time flows on the likes of the SE and Southern networks these days. They are in excess of capacity.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

I accept that for a lot of people the experience isn't great, but in a way, the railways are a victim of their own success. More people use the trains now than they did a few years ago and despite the London Bridge investment, other platforms aren't going to be extended any more than physically possible and carriages aren't going to magically appear out of nowhere. The 25 extra 377s are a much-needed crutch, but that alone isn't going to alleviate the problem. The result is a network that is still teetering on the edge more, if not just as much, as it was 5 years ago. And complaints about short trains... I guess the complainers didn't consider the Victoria and SE Blackfriars commuters such as myself, who lost 2 coaches on many of our peak services just over a year ago so that their Charing X and Cannon St services could benefit.

As for the morning fatality, I doubt the social networking team saw that as a "perfect opportuntiy" to scapegoat their network's fragility on something else. If anything, they were probably looking forward to the barrage of verbal abuse they were expecting to receive from their loving public when they heard about the disruption to Bromley. I happened to see Pip's tweet to SE this morning and felt a bit incredulous that someone would continue to hurl verbal diahorrea because someone else getting killed was inconveniencing them. I very nearly put them in their place, but then I decided that I am also at work and could do well to avoid becoming a target myself.

...and as for those Dartford services, something looks amiss there, but it'll be in SE's best interests to identify why, else they'll be racking up delay minutes I bet they'd rather not have. If it sounds like I'm defending them... well, you could oust Southeastern tomorrow and stick someone else at the helm, but it almost certainly won't get any better, and truth be told, I'd have more confidence in the incumbent knowing how to deal with the unique challenge that is South East London & Kent over another group that has no experience. How many other operators do you know that have to serve 6-7 London Terminals?

Tl;Dr - Things can always be better than they are, but people need to stop being overly-entitled keyboard warriors just because they think they're anonymous online.

 

[Bromley boy]

I guess the complainers didn't consider the Victoria and SE Blackfriars commuters such as myself, who lost 2 coaches on many of our peak services just over a year ago so that their Charing X and Cannon St services could benefit.

Hopefully you have noticed some improvement recently. Many of the formally 6 car Orpington - Vic services have been lengthened to 8 cars as the 377s have displaced the 465/9s from mainline work.

...and as for those Dartford services, something looks amiss there, but it'll be in SE's best interests to identify why, else they'll be racking up delay minutes I bet they'd rather not have.

There has been some internal discussion of signalling regulation in the London Bridge area, and particularly the bits handed over from London Bridge box to Three Bridges ROC. I believe this was several hundred signals over the Xmas period.

There have been restrictive aspects where they wouldn’t normally be expected - most likely due to the signallers learning the ropes of the new workstations.

It’s amazing things haven’t been far worse given the scale of the project, which isn’t appreciated by many commuters who perceive the tracks and stations being in the same place, without realising the entire railway in that area has been rebuilt from the ground up over the last few years.

Tl;Dr - Things can always be better than they are, but people need to stop being overly-entitled keyboard warriors just because they think they're anonymous online.

Agreed!

 

[theageofthetra]

A person being hit by a train is not an isolated incident. The person struck by the train in this case was regrettably not in the most presentable state, and visible from all the running lines near Bromley South. This is strictly not permitted to be viewed by passengers on passing trains, for obvious reasons. Therefore screening (which took up another line) was deployed. Once this was done - which was commendably promptly, in the circumstances - the service recovery could get into full swing, whilst forensics worked on the deceased only 6ft from trains which were actually running. A fantastic effort all round, in fact.

As for signal failures, many are repeat problems caused by environmental issues (weather, litter, pollution etc.), tiny electronics problems which would be laughed off if they occurred in your computer keyboard or even your car (but the railway is built around failsafes, so the job stops when this stuff breaks), or glitches which take a long time to access and diagnose but a short time to fix. Combine these three together, and you can see why the knock-on impacts are so common and often so great.

Don't get me started on people being taken ill. Often it's the same person several days in a row, who hasn't had breakfast and faints on their way to work. Someone pulls the alarm (which is understandable with an unconscious person lying on a busy train!). Then you have to wait for the crew to assess the situation and possibly get medical assistance. Eventually these passengers are politely advised to stop it (something like this happened at Clapham Junction a little while back). Anything more serious and therefore more genuine will result in a genuine and often long-drawn-out medical response. On the occasions when somebody goes into labour or cardiac arrest, you can't necessarily move them quickly to a safer place. Therefore they stay on the train until the ambulance service has figured out a way to get them over the Victorian footbridge, or whatever.

Turning the heating off (if a networker) and crush loaded, making announcements for those sitting near windows to open them to show consideration for those standing, and if held for any time to request that no alarms are pulled unless an immediate life threatening situation helps stop these sort of issues.

 

[theageofthetra]

Hopefully you have noticed some improvement recently. Many of the formally 6 car Orpington - Vic services have been lengthened to 8 cars as the 377s have displaced the 465/9s from mainline work.



There has been some internal discussion of signalling regulation in the London Bridge area, and particularly the bits handed over from London Bridge box to Three Bridges ROC. I believe this was several hundred signals over the Xmas period.

There have been restrictive aspects where they wouldn’t normally be expected - most likely due to the signallers learning the ropes of the new workstations.

It’s amazing things haven’t been far worse given the scale of the project, which isn’t appreciated by many commuters who perceive the tracks and stations being in the same place, without realising the entire railway in that area has been rebuilt from the ground up over the last few years.



Agreed!

Still plenty of 465/9's on T Wells stoppers.

 

[Bromley boy]

Turning the heating off (if a networker) and crush loaded,

Agreed. Networker heating is overzealous and the trains are like saunas. Although many people complain about being too cold if the heating is switched off.

Still plenty of 465/9's on T Wells stoppers

There are but they’ve been displaced from many services deeper into Kent. Lots of longer metro formations running around. Many 10 cars that were previously 8.

 

[otomous]

Still plenty of 465/9's on T Wells stoppers.

Would have thought 465s perfectly good on T Wells stoppers, they have toilets, aren’t travelling a particularly long distance and can move a large number of people.

 

[al78]

Tl;Dr - Things can always be better than they are, but people need to stop being overly-entitled keyboard warriors just because they think they're anonymous online.

People also should stop being keen to leap to the defence of genuiine crapness, just because they are associated with the railway, and so take a criticism of the railway as an attack on their personal identity.

 

[otomous]

People also should stop being keen to leap to the defence of genuiine crapness, just because they are associated with the railway, and so take a criticism of the railway as an attack on their personal identity.

All I have seen is people responding to criticisms with factual answers.

 

[Daz28]

I’ve been travelling into London Bridge and Cannon Street regularly since the New Year. Service hasn’t been too bad, either on time or 5 or 6 minutes late typically. Loadings vary, for good reasons. With all services now stopping at London Bridge, SouthEastern have had to guess which services are likely to be busiest and put the 10/12 car formations. At the same time, passengers have had to guess as to which services are likely to be busiest and are adjusting the timing of their journeys accordingly. I think that 10 days into effectively a new railway, the service is ok. Over time I’m sure the signallers will get smarter at reducing delays, the train operator will get smarter at how best to allocate the finite number of units, and passengers will get smarter at working out which route and timings works best for them.

 

[Bromley boy]

People also should stop being keen to leap to the defence of genuiine crapness, just because they are associated with the railway, and so take a criticism of the railway as an attack on their personal identity.

Nobody has done that as far as I can see.

It’s just irritating when the criticisms are misplaced (eg TOCs blamed for signal failures), factually incorrect, moans about delays caused by passenger actions etc.

As I said before I find it odd that people who are supposedly railway enthusiasts don’t understand how a train breaking down at one point will rapidly affect other parts of the network.

 

[carriageline]

Calm down. It’s a new layout. Which drivers haven’t drove on before, signallers who haven’t worked it “in anger”, new platform staff, new layouts for passengers to use. Trains stopping where they haven’t for some time.

The timetable needs work, as does a few things. This was really expected. It
Will settle down

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Hopefully you have noticed some improvement recently. Many of the formally 6 car Orpington - Vic services have been lengthened to 8 cars as the 377s have displaced the 465/9s from mainline work.

I've actually switched jobs recently and now have a different commute along with it. The reduction in capacity was noticeable, but not intolerable. I won't complain, though, because I even spotted David Statham (Southeastern MD) on the Blackfriars starter a few times. Luckily for him, nobody else seems to realise who it was!

 

[hwl]

A slightly blinkered view from the OP.

1. Over the last 3 years with a reduced number of stopping services at London Bridge has lead to the ones that did stop being being lengthened at the expense of the ones that didn't. Even before that only 18tph of the Up CHX services stopped in the am peak (On P6 as the other 11tph used the up loop). This means that there are now an extra 10tph stopping at LBG in the AM peak compared to the before the works and typically at least 18tph more than during the maximum extent of the works. The impact of stopping at LBG has a huge impact on the rolling stock requirement typically extending unit journey times by 5minutes on a round trip inwards of New Cross / Deptford and back again. Therefore trains have got shorter again but been some what compensated for with the 377s. The situation will get worse when the via Herne Hill Thameslink services revert to SouthEastern as that will increase the stock requirement.

2. The three Dartford lines are intimately linked as the services that don't go through to Dartford operate as loop services back Cannon Street so 1 problem can quickly take out 50% of services on the Dartford lines within 30-40 mins.

3. To help increase stopping capacity at LBG during the works most VIC-Orpington services were shortened from 8 to 6 car which trashed dwell times as it took far longer to unload and load, leading to virtually all of them running late all the time. This has now been addressed and things have reverted to the pre-works situation.

4. After previous changes on the SE side at LBG it has take up to 8-10 weeks for things to settle down hence it isn't a sensible to judge after 2 weeks.

5. SE has still experienced passenger growth in the last year unlike some other London commuter franchises and there hasn't really been much done for growth (377s some what address the stopping impact with a bit of growth). Passenger growth on SE has been very uneven so SE have had to focus capacity in different places.

 

[otomous]

A slightly blinkered view from the OP.

1. Over the last 3 years with a reduced number of stopping services at London Bridge has lead to the ones that did stop being being lengthened at the expense of the ones that didn't. Even before that only 18tph of the Up CHX services stopped in the am peak (On P6 as the other 11tph used the up loop). This means that there are now an extra 10tph stopping at LBG in the AM peak compared to the before the works and typically at least 18tph more than during the maximum extent of the works. The impact of stopping at LBG has a huge impact on the rolling stock requirement typically extending unit journey times by 5minutes on a round trip inwards of New Cross / Deptford and back again. Therefore trains have got shorter again but been some what compensated for with the 377s. The situation will get worse when the via Herne Hill Thameslink services revert to SouthEastern as that will increase the stock requirement.

2. The three Dartford lines are intimately linked as the services that don't go through to Dartford operate as loop services back Cannon Street so 1 problem can quickly take out 50% of services on the Dartford lines within 30-40 mins.

3. To help increase stopping capacity at LBG during the works most VIC-Orpington services were shortened from 8 to 6 car which trashed dwell times as it took far longer to unload and load, leading to virtually all of them running late all the time. This has now been addressed and things have reverted to the pre-works situation.

4. After previous changes on the SE side at LBG it has take up to 8-10 weeks for things to settle down hence it isn't a sensible to judge after 2 weeks.

5. SE has still experienced passenger growth in the last year unlike some other London commuter franchises and there hasn't really been much done for growth (377s some what address the stopping impact with a bit of growth). Passenger growth on SE has been very uneven so SE have had to focus capacity in different places.

In fact the Vic-Orpington services are BETTER than before as they are beneficiaries of the 377 influx cascading 465s; regularly now 8 cars instead of 4 or 6, even off peak.

 

[bramling]

Agreed. Networker heating is overzealous and the trains are like saunas. Although many people complain about being too cold if the heating is switched off.

It the same with the 365s. Personally as long as windows are open I don't find the overzealous heating an issue at all - in fact it's quite good to still be warm but have fresh air flowing around. The problem as ever is there will always be one who complains about it being "freezing" if a window is open. The happy medium seems to be wedging the windows half open with a ball of newspaper!

 

[bramling]

If there really are problems then they need to be fixed, this can't go on for much longer.

Unfortunately, it's a case of being careful what you wish for. One fix which would improve performance overnight would be to run a much less ambitious timetable - but at the cost of more standing and on occasions people physically unable to travel at their desired time. The problem with running a railway basically at capacity is that it only takes one link in the chain to wobble and the whole pack of cards can come down very quickly.

It's hard to really see what else can be done with the Southeastern network. There are a *lot* of flat junctions, many of them in densely built-up areas. Very substantial amounts of money and disruption would be necessary to get rid of them.

How about building a one-way terminal loop under Central London, serving London Bridge, the west end and the city? Would assist turnround capacity and ease the issue of people wanting direct trains to more than one terminus - plus avoiding the issue of imported delays which Thameslink badly suffers from. Again, massive money involved.

Perhaps people need to challenge the notion that population increase in London / the south east is somehow inevitable?

 

[Bromley boy]

Unfortunately, it's a case of being careful what you wish for. One fix which would improve performance overnight would be to run a much less ambitious timetable - but at the cost of more standing and on occasions people physically unable to travel at their desired time. The problem with running a railway basically at capacity is that it only takes one link in the chain to wobble and the whole pack of cards can come down very quickly.

It's hard to really see what else can be done with the Southeastern network. There are a *lot* of flat junctions, many of them in densely built-up areas. Very substantial amounts of money and disruption would be necessary to get rid of them.

How about building a one-way terminal loop under Central London, serving London Bridge, the west end and the city? Would assist turnround capacity and ease the issue of people wanting direct trains to more than one terminus - plus avoiding the issue of imported delays which Thameslink badly suffers from. Again, massive money involved.

Perhaps people need to challenge the notion that population increase in London / the south east is somehow inevitable?

Some very good points made here, and in other posts on this thread.

Unfortunately it often seems with threads like this that posters just want to have a moan/rant, and have little interest in improving their own understanding of how the problems they describe arise.

 

[hwl]

It's hard to really see what else can be done with the Southeastern network. There are a *lot* of flat junctions, many of them in densely built-up areas. Very substantial amounts of money and disruption would be necessary to get rid of them.

About another 35-40 4 car units would bring every thing up to max length non HS1 wise if it had SDO to deal with Woolwich Dockyard and CHX but then you need the space to maintain and store it too. Most Vic - Orpington Platforms are 9 car so 10car with SDO might be an option there. ATO might help with CST capacity.

 

[ComUtoR]

Most are 8 cars with Beck Junction at 9. Brixton on the down would foul the junction.

You also need to then consider into Victoria. With 3/4 used for the Orpy- Vics only able to accommodate 8. With the upcoming changes, Vic is going to become a bottleneck for other services.

 

[CeeJ]

PPM has been over 80% most days, right time 50-70%.

Considering the padding Southeastern use on their services, this isn't really good at all. Somehow it takes 6 minutes to go from WAE to CHX, but only 2 minutes the other way!

(Not that I'm suggesting that this isn't acceptable, just that when considering statistics that rely upon the train arriving at its final stop, adding 4 mins to the timetable is a lot of catch-up time!)

 

[bramling]

Considering the padding Southeastern use on their services, this isn't really good at all. Somehow it takes 6 minutes to go from WAE to CHX, but only 2 minutes the other way!

Sure, some of that may be padding - but one also has to factor in that in the up direction the train will be approaching a terminus so the approach will be more cautious, plus there's more chance of being held waiting for a platform to become available. I'd say it's more of a performance margin, and with the density of service using a 6-platform terminus, probably pretty sensible. I'm sure in reality it's more like 3 minutes in the down direction as well!

 

[Bromley boy]

Sure, some of that may be padding - but one also has to factor in that in the up direction the train will be approaching a terminus so the approach will be more cautious, plus there's more chance of being held waiting for a platform to become available. I'd say it's more of a performance margin, and with the density of service using a 6-platform terminus, probably pretty sensible. I'm sure in reality it's more like 3 minutes in the down direction as well!

I think that's right. It's to build in a safety margin. Charing + is used unbelievably intensively during the peaks and most trains (many 10-12 cars) will have minimum turnarounds. It only takes a minute or two of delay to cause a knock on effect and building in some margin for error reduces the risk of this at the expense of some capacity. It's a trade off between resilience and capacity.

The other notable feature with the London Bridge - Charing + corridor is that up direction trains are dispatched immediately irrespective of timetable. When things are running well it's quite common for services to arrive a few minutes early at London Bridge, make up more time at Waterloo east and end up 3-4mins early into Charing +. (This usually only happens off peak because during peak times the railway is operating at max capacity.)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think that's right. It's to build in a safety margin. Charing + is used unbelievably intensively during the peaks and most trains (many 10-12 cars) will have minimum turnarounds. It only takes a minute or two of delay to cause a knock on effect and building in some margin for error reduces the risk of this at the expense of some capacity. It's a trade off between resilience and capacity.

The other notable feature with the London Bridge - Charing + corridor is that up direction trains are dispatched immediately irrespective of timetable. When things are running well it's quite common for services to arrive a few minutes early at London Bridge, make up more time at Waterloo east and end up 3-4mins early into Charing +. (This usually only happens off peak because during peak times the railway is operating at max capacity.)

I seem to recall that Charing X was diagrammed on perpetual 7 min turnrounds - with interworking stock -probably still is.

The awful complexity can be summarised by a log item that an 8 min start (for good reasons) at Orpington one morning - racked up a 600 min delay total in reactionary delay. That is how tight the SE is ?

 

[Bromley boy]

I seem to recall that Charing X was diagrammed on perpetual 7 min turnrounds - with interworking stock -probably still is.

The awful complexity can be summarised by a log item that an 8 min start (for good reasons) at Orpington one morning - racked up a 600 min delay total in reactionary delay. That is how tight the SE is ?

Yes exactly. Minimal turnarounds as Charing Cross is now the main bottleneck on the route. 6 platforms and only 1-3 are available for 12 car networkers.

7 minutes for an 8-10 car, 10 minutes for a 12 car is the current minimum. If a train arrives 2-3 minutes late in the peak it will almost certainly be leaving late on its next journey.

Even these turnarounds can be very difficult to achieve when the platform is so crowded that it’s difficult for the driver to fight through the hoardes pushing and shoving towards the ticket barriers!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes exactly. Minimal turnarounds as Charing Cross is now the main bottleneck on the route. 6 platforms and only 1-3 are available for 12 car networkers.

7 minutes for an 8-10 car, 10 minutes for a 12 car is the current minimum. If a train arrives 2-3 minutes late in the peak it will almost certainly be leaving late on its next journey.

Even these turnarounds can be very difficult to achieve when the platform is so crowded that it’s difficult for the driver to fight through the hoardes pushing and shoving towards the ticket barriers!

Which is why LUL have stepping back arrangements for an inwards driver to take out the next train but one at places like Aldgate / Brixton etc - as the driver can hardly make it to the country end cab and set it up properly against the inwards detraining hordes of passengers. Passenger flow is as important as good timetabling / regulation and crew diagramming. Good point.

 

[Bromley boy]

Which is why LUL have stepping back arrangements for an inwards driver to take out the next train but one at places like Aldgate / Brixton etc - as the driver can hardly make it to the country end cab and set it up properly against the inwards detraining hordes of passengers. Passenger flow is as important as good timetabling / regulation and crew diagramming. Good point.

On the tube stepping back makes a lot of sense. I doubt 36tph (or whatever it is) on the Victoria line would be possible without it!

I think the sheer complexity of the mainline network changes this.

At Charing Cross in the AM peak a metro train arriving from Dartford or Hayes, for example, may have a driver who only signs networkers/376s and will typically depart empty or head back in service to different destination.

Contrast this with a mainline train operated by driver and guard, who only sign 375s and will have spent 2+ hours working a coastal mainline service to London. They often work their train empties to Grove park depot, or similar.

These crews are not interchangeable and, with minimal turnarounds, the approach of rosters seems to be to keep the driver with the train wherever possible.

If any of these crews are delayed/displaced, no replacements will be available, and the whole pack of cards falls apart very quickly indeed!

 

[Busaholic]

I don't work for Southeastern.

That daily journey from Redcar would be interesting!