What made East Coast so popular?

[EM2]

In the oft-repeated arguments for and against nationalisation and privatisation, the exceptional customer satisfaction scores of East Coast are often mentioned.
The same trains, on the same infrastructure, running to the same timetable, charging the same fares, to the same stations and operated by the same staff, yet vastly higher satisfaction scores.
So what did they do so well that made them so well-liked?

 

[F Great Eastern]

I used them three times and I found staff to be arrogant, uncaring for passengers and had two of my worst ever train experiences on there so each to their own. It's the only company I've made a written complaint to about a train journey - I sensed an air of feeling superior from some staff because they were state owned.

Their complaints team didn't do much either other than resort to passenger blaming and passing the buck until I mentioned the word 'media' and they soon changed tack which indicates that they were very PR savvy and didn't want any bad news ending in the media - they offered me ridiculous amounts of things in order to keep me quiet.

 

[jon0844]

They didn't do that much besides the first class offering which spawned one of the biggest threads in this forums history. That probably did work wonders from a PR perspective.

 

[Tetchytyke]

charging the same fares

Well there's the first issue: EC were cheaper. VTEC may have untouched the prices of the AP tiers, but just try and find the cheapest ones now. My experience is that Virgin are usually at least £40 return more expensive for the same trains. I'm increasingly turning to Grand Central and splitting at York their fares have gone up so much. Or, even more ludicrously, I'm finding BA are regularly cheaper.

Even 3 months ahead you won't often find an AP ticket on a Sunday afternoon other than at the highest tier they can charge.

Combine that with the decrease in service, especially in first class where the complimentary service is noticeably stingier (smaller glasses, smaller cans, smaller plates, smaller cakes), undercatered and understaffed.

Other things like the EC Rewards scheme closing don't help either.

In short, Virgin charge a lot more and offer a lot less. A winning combination for Beardy, less so for us who have to use the trains.

 

[yorksrob]

I always found the staff very helpful - cheap advanced fares seemed to be easier to come by then than on VTEC nowadays. But even then, I found EMT's HST's more comfortable, and their first class was cheaper (albeit with fewer freebies). Unfortunately, as with VTEC, their cheaper deals are also harder to come by in comparison to themselves five years ago. An issue with all TOC's being run by the same company perhaps ?

 

[EM2]

Well there's the first issue: EC were cheaper.

I always found the staff very helpful - cheap advanced fares seemed to be easier to come by then than on VTEC nowadays.

But that's comparing EC then with VTEC now, which people giving those satisfaction scores wouldn't have been able to do. They'd have had to compare to GNER and NXEC, were they similar in outlook to VTEC?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Unfortunately, as with VTEC, their cheaper deals are also harder to come by in comparison to themselves five years ago. An issue with all TOC's being run by the same company perhaps ?

Undoubtedly. EMT used to be very competitive on Leeds-London. Suddenly they're both Stagecoach and they're not. Just fancy that.

My experience with EC was that some of the London crews in particular were actively obnoxious, handing the first class complimentaries like every sip of wine was coming out of their salary; I experienced the "toast famine" fairly regularly. That, and when things went wrong they really went wrong.

But for the most part the crews were excellent, especially Geordie and Scottish crews. I used to get a large glass of red in my hand before we'd even left Kings Cross on the 1730, with plenty more where that came from. They understood these were premiums trains charging premium prices. Not any more. Everything is just more expensive and less pleasant. Virgin will leave no price ungouged.

East Coast were by no means perfect. But, my goodness, I'm have them back tomorrow if it gets rid of Tacky Railways.

 

[yorksrob]

But that's comparing EC then with VTEC now, which people giving those satisfaction scores wouldn't have been able to do. They'd have had to compare to GNER, were they similar in outlook to VTEC?

I used GNER quite a lot back then (there was less competition) but I don't recall having any difficulties finding cheap AP. Similar with the much berated NXEC.

 

[Tetchytyke]

They'd have had to compare to GNER, were they similar in outlook to VTEC?

It's tough to compare different eras. But I never found issues with good value tickets with GNER or even with NXEC.

I'd agree that DOR will have probably had to increase fares. And it wasn't always quite right in terms of service: the evening dinner service could be a bit flaky, regularly turning into the bog standard offering.

But, generally, DOR understood when people were buying a premium product and treated them accordingly. Virgin, on the other hand, stock so little food that first class has no sandwiches left at Darlington on a train from Newcastle to London. And that wasn't a one-off. Premium, it ain't.

Having used the east coast for a very long time, I'd rank EC top and then GNER just behind. Virgin? I'd rather see National Express come back than have another minute of Branson.

 

[greyman42]

Well there's the first issue: EC were cheaper. VTEC may have untouched the prices of the AP tiers, but just try and find the cheapest ones now. My experience is that Virgin are usually at least £40 return more expensive for the same trains. I'm increasingly turning to Grand Central and splitting at York their fares have gone up so much. Or, even more ludicrously, I'm finding BA are regularly cheaper.

Even 3 months ahead you won't often find an AP ticket on a Sunday afternoon other than at the highest tier they can charge.

Combine that with the decrease in service, especially in first class where the complimentary service is noticeably stingier (smaller glasses, smaller cans, smaller plates, smaller cakes), undercatered and understaffed.

Other things like the EC Rewards scheme closing don't help either.

In short, Virgin charge a lot more and offer a lot less. A winning combination for Beardy, less so for us who have to use the trains.

VTEC know their services are going to be rammed every Sunday afternoon so the chances of them putting cheaper tickets on their website are slim.

 

[yorksrob]

Undoubtedly. EMT used to be very competitive on Leeds-London. Suddenly they're both Stagecoach and they're not. Just fancy that.

My experience with EC was that some of the London crews in particular were actively obnoxious, handing the first class complimentaries like every sip of wine was coming out of their salary; I experienced the "toast famine" fairly regularly. That, and when things went wrong they really went wrong.

But for the most part the crews were excellent, especially Geordie and Scottish crews. I used to get a large glass of red in my hand before we'd even left Kings Cross on the 1730, with plenty more where that came from. They understood these were premiums trains charging premium prices. Not any more. Everything is just more expensive and less pleasant. Virgin will leave no price ungouged.

East Coast were by no means perfect. But, my goodness, I'm have them back tomorrow if it gets rid of Tacky Railways.

I'm usually in steerage when using the ECML to London, so 1st class freebies aren't usually on my radar. They seemed (and seem) pretty generous on the occasions going up North to Scotland - but that's not my main route or criteria.

Value for money just seems harder to come by.

 

[greyman42]

Undoubtedly. EMT used to be very competitive on Leeds-London. Suddenly they're both Stagecoach and they're not. Just fancy that.

My experience with EC was that some of the London crews in particular were actively obnoxious, handing the first class complimentaries like every sip of wine was coming out of their salary; I experienced the "toast famine" fairly regularly. That, and when things went wrong they really went wrong.

But for the most part the crews were excellent, especially Geordie and Scottish crews. I used to get a large glass of red in my hand before we'd even left Kings Cross on the 1730, with plenty more where that came from. They understood these were premiums trains charging premium prices. Not any more. Everything is just more expensive and less pleasant. Virgin will leave no price ungouged.

East Coast were by no means perfect. But, my goodness, I'm have them back tomorrow if it gets rid of Tacky Railways.

Spot on regarding which part of the country the crews came from.

 

[Tetchytyke]

VTEC know their services are going to be rammed every Sunday afternoon

That's the thing: they're not rammed any more. Because they're routinely £25 more expensive than EC were. I've certainly been priced away from them.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Weren't DOR paying a lower premium than anyone else though to the taxpayer and abandoned all growth targets and service improvements?

 

[yorksrob]

Weren't DOR paying a lower premium than anyone else though to the taxpayer and abandoned all growth targets and service improvements?

Well, the complimentary food in first was an innovation from their time (whether it counts an an 'improvement' is something those more familiar with it will have to decide).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Weren't DOR paying a lower premium than anyone else though to the taxpayer and abandoned all growth targets and service improvements

They implemented Eureka, the only service improvement "abandoned" was sending 180s to Lincoln. Growth was fine. They finished the refurbishment programme started under GNER. First class was radically changed with a complimentary menu instead of paid for food and drink (GNER food was lovely, but at £10- 2000s prices- for a burger it bloody should have been!). The food bar menu was generally improved, although they ripped out the bean-to-cup coffee machines.

As for premiums, they were making plenty of profit for the Treasury. It's hard to know how much VTEC actually pay and how much NXEC paid , given the obfuscation from government (of both flavours), but premiums went down when VTEC took over. They were paying less than VTEC promised they would ultimately pay, but as so recently proven the old saying about birds, hands and bushes still holds strong.

 

[A0]

In the oft-repeated arguments for against nationalisation and privatisation, the exceptional customer satisfaction scores of East Coast are often mentioned.
The same trains, on the same infrastructure, running to the same timetable, charging the same fares, to the same stations and operated by the same staff, yet vastly higher satisfaction scores.
So what did they do so well that made them so well-liked?

I suspect a placebo effect......

A mythical belief it was somehow better being state run, with no factual evidence to support it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I suspect a placebo effect......

Nah, there was a fag paper between DOR and GNER in terms of quality. GNER were much better than BR of the 90s. Sea Containers were many things, but they definitely weren't state owned.

Having NXEC and VTEC either side makes DOR look better, of course it does. But Virgin really are terrible. I'd rather see NX come back. At least you don't get the smarta*** slogans with NX.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I wouldn't wish National Express back having had to endure their crap on the GEML for years to the point that it stopped me even bothering to use the train as it was more stress than it was worth and the fact that stations went years without even being cleaned and when I was on NXEC it looks like it was run to the minimum of budgets, the state of the uniform was a joke as well - so thin it could be seen through.

No lover of VTEC either though - believe GNER was the best operator on that line from my experiences even if I hate the Mallard Refurbishment.

 

[yorksrob]

Branson seems pretty laissez faire about the old branding these days. This is my second night without internet because of their fiasco of a broadband 'service'.

He should have stuck with the cola.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Virgin have no connection with Virgin Media these days - simply license the name to Liberty Global.

 

[bb21]

Branson seems pretty laissez faire about the old branding these days. This is my second night without internet because of their fiasco of a broadband 'service'.

He should have stuck with the cola.

Get a decent SIM only contract and leave the stress behind.

On-train WiFi in this country is overall a joke, with a very small handful of reasonable ones.

 

[WatcherZero]

As for premiums, they were making plenty of profit for the Treasury. It's hard to know how much VTEC actually pay and how much NXEC paid , given the obfuscation from government (of both flavours), but premiums went down when VTEC took over. They were paying less than VTEC promised they would ultimately pay, but as so recently proven the old saying about birds, hands and bushes still holds strong.

Only went down in the first year of VTEC, higher from the second year onwards, while people talk about rear loading the franchise profile VTEC front loaded it as well, paying higher than revenues initially, balancing out to earn a profit in the middle then higher again in the last two years.

 

[takno]

Never got the appeal of East Coast. Their staff were startlingly rude (as with other commentators, mostly the London crews, who are still only grudgingly less awful under VTEC) and their customer service operation was arrogant and unhelpful. The operations seemed precisely no better or worse than now, and delays are far more often out of the operators control than in it.

The tickets may have been cheaper when bought months in advance, but I personally never seemed to get any that were cheaper than I pay now. If there were so many cheap tickets then and nobody can afford to travel now, how come the trains are also magically so busy not even the leader of the opposition can get a seat? I'm certainly not seeing many empty seats south of Newcastle at sane times.

Other people may have had different experiences, but broadly EC pushed me onto planes a lot more, and a combination of BA going completely to pot and VTEC being generally just less irritating has got me back.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I prefered East Coast when DOR were running it, I found the staff helpful and a joy to speak to when enquiring. However under Virgin it seems that most of the staff have jacked in the job an opted for employment elsewhere.

 

[aag2110]

One thing I have definitely noticed is the price increases. I've travelled between Kings Cross and Peterborough fairly regularly (1-2 times a month) for the last 8 years always on Advance tickets.

Under EC and NX it was easy to get £6-9 tickets each way (with a railcard) travelling after 1900 buying the tickets probably a week in advance on average.

With Virgin, on average I pay more like ££12-14 each way unless I book considerably further in advance (occasionally get £9 on a Sunday evening... PBO-KGX) On the 20.05 or 20.35, no chance of the 19.03, 19.06 or 19.30.

This sounds like a small cost change but it turns what was a sub-£20 return into an almost-£30-return.

Maybe the EC fares were too cheap to start off with, and maybe I'm getting worse at booking in advance. Admittedly the 19.03 could often get quite busy as the first off peak train to stop at PBO so probably good I that one is expensive £23! I went to Paris for £29 last week..!) but the 19.06 was always quieter and the 19.30 was busy but not standing.

Similar I am often up to Edinburgh and Glasgow from London, and with BA often doing £30-£35 tickets each way from Heathrow it's getting harder to justify taking the train (and persuading the people I'm travelling with to take the train...) And I will always normally go out of my way to try and take the train anywhere!

 

[yorksrob]

Virgin have no connection with Virgin Media these days - simply license the name to Liberty Global.

Exactly. There doesn't seem to be much concern about what they do from brand HQ.

RB does seem to be more involved in the trains though, regarding publicity etc.

 

[westv]

Well VTEC

got rid of the online discount
got rid of the rewards scheme
increased the price of my Friday ticket to Hull
claimed old bookings were safe when the new website went live
has never apologised for the faults of the new website


Need I say more?

 

[northernchris]

Never got the appeal of East Coast. Their staff were startlingly rude (as with other commentators, mostly the London crews, who are still only grudgingly less awful under VTEC) and their customer service operation was arrogant and unhelpful. The operations seemed precisely no better or worse than now, and delays are far more often out of the operators control than in it.

Unfortunately that was my experience of East Coast too, they had some appalling staff. I was lied to by one member of the Leeds station team and when I challenged her she started raising her voice rather than clarifying the info she was providing was correct. I complained and was ignored, so ended up involving Transport Focus. East Coast eventually responded saying they had sent a letter to a wrong address (potential data protection breach) along with some guff about having a duty to the taxpayer to keep compensation to a minimum. Ended up writing to Karen Boswell in the end to get the situation resolved, which IIRC took about 4 months in total. The only good thing about East Coast being in public ownership is they were subject to Freedom of Information requests

Regarding the high satisfaction scores, the ECML has always faired well in the NPS surveys - I think even during National Express' tenure they were about average for the Intercity operators

 

[Starmill]

Get a decent SIM only contract and leave the stress behind.

On-train WiFi in this country is overall a joke, with a very small handful of reasonable ones.

I think Mr Yorksrob might actually have been commenting on his home broadband service!