Liverpool Lime Street Overhead Wire Problems 7-1-18

[AndrewE]

Pre Galvanising. Just paint. And asset policy has changed from wholesale repainting to patch only when corrosion appears.
These structures are in an awful location to inspect unforunately, probably why it's got this bad...

Not pre-galvanising at all, that process dates from long before any of us was born (and by the way, it's actually hot-dip galvanised - a misnomer - rather than electro-plated.) All the original electrification hardware was very carefully planned/specified, with "galvanised" steelwork protected by a carefully-chosen paint system that would (if maintained) have kept the galvanised steel safe for ever. The other bits (the tubular steel supports) were also a bit special, being physically copper-clad, but they stood the test of time. Apparently the procurement was a bit fraught but a few of them are still around, clearly identifiable by their bright turquoise colour. I worked with a man who was involved in setting it up.
Agree about the difficulties of inspection/maintenance though.

Heavy duty damage. All the zinc from the galv is long gone. Moisture and dissolved salts from rocks has exacerbated the corrosion. Expect all 1950s and 60s structures across the network to get an inspection this year.

I'm not surprised to hear this!

 

[_toommm_]

Services back running at Liverpool now. As I speak we've got a 390 setting off on the first service of the day to Euston.

 

[DJH1971]

Not pre-galvanising at all, that process dates from long before any of us was born (and by the way, it's actually hot-dip galvanised - a misnomer - rather than electro-plated.) All the original electrification hardware was very carefully planned/specified, with "galvanised" steelwork protected by a carefully-chosen paint system that would (if maintained) have kept the galvanised steel safe for ever. The other bits (the tubular steel supports) were also a bit special, being physically copper-clad, but they stood the test of time. Apparently the procurement was a bit fraught but a few of them are still around, clearly identifiable by their bright turquoise colour. I worked with a man who was involved in setting it up.
Agree about the difficulties of inspection/maintenance though.


I'm not surprised to hear this!

Would have thought this would have been looked at during the closure last autumn.

 

[notlob.divad]

Combined with last years wall collapse it really does not reflect well on the inspection regime. What I would say is that given the recent focus on works within the cutting it may have given opportunity for thorough more frequent inspections that a one off inspection may not have. As a friend of mine says, a single inspection really isn't much use as it gives you no indication of the rate of decline in a structure. The ability to have more frequent observation of these structures during the ongoing works may have identified a significant deterioration in the structure beyond what had otherwise been predicted.

On a final note: it is my understanding that the management of the Edge Hill to Lime Street cutting has recently changed. (Prior to the wall collapse, but not in time to have a major impact in preventing it). Previously, the bridge sections, tunnel sections, cutting sections, OHLE structures, where all managed by different people. Last year the entire section of line from Edge Hill to the Lime Street Buffer stops, was put under one manager from a civil and structural point of view. It was a worry that some issues may not be spotted, as boundaries between what is a structure, what is a formation etc etc where very blurred. The wall collapse kind of confirmed this and so maybe the spotting of this OHLE structure issue prior to a major incident is the new system beginning to function as it should.

 

[Railman]

I would be very surprised if the local lads were not aware of this over the years, problem comes when a big repair is required who pays, maintenance or projects etc, will some new scheme come along and take the problem away etc etc ?. It will be the same for all structures, signal ganties etc. There is no need to create a new Hi tech "Rust monitoring department" the neglect is on a far simpler level than that. just look around the railway at the amount of weeds and scrap everywhere, then you have the answer.

 

[DarloRich]

Well when you cut staff numbers what do you expect.

Surely not! That and limited access to the infrastructure and limited time to do any work when you get on there wouldn't have anything to do with this kind of thing happening .

What's odd is that you'd expect replacement of corroding structures to be exactly what the current upgrade project is about.
There are new wires and gantries down there for the new layout, and it's still a work in progress.
There are new slots and fixings in the cutting walls waiting for new steelwork.
It reminds me of the sudden need to replace ancient signal wiring at Bletchley, just before the whole lot was replaced anyway for the new ROC signalling.
The Lime St approach has been hardly touched since electrification 55 years ago.

Whats odd is not understanding the phrases : project scope & authorised budget.

The project delivers the scope of work authorised. If work isnt in that scope and isnt funded it doesn't get done ( subject to certain caveats). If the project is to replace structure numbers 1-27 and this is number 37 it isnt getting done.

BTW - which ancient signal wiring at Betchley?

Initially, I would go down the route of fitting high quality cameras to the measurement train. The output could be manually reviewed in the comfort of the office, with a view to developing automatic systems ASAP.

I doubt any on board camera would have spotted the problem. The issue looks to be in the root of the gantry against the cutting wall. You need inspection with the mki eyeball on a regular basis to spot this kind of thing.

Would have thought this would have been looked at during the closure last autumn.

see above point re project scope. In the ideal world, you are, of course, correct. Sadly the real world comes with pressure of both time and resource.

I would be very surprised if the local lads were not aware of this over the years, problem comes when a big repair is required who pays, maintenance or projects etc, will some new scheme come along and take the problem away etc etc ?. It will be the same for all structures, signal ganties etc. There is no need to create a new Hi tech "Rust monitoring department" the neglect is on a far simpler level than that. just look around the railway at the amount of weeds and scrap everywhere, then you have the answer.

No problem fixing that. Which of the other on track tasks shall NR stop to divert resources (both physical and financial) to this type of work....................

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Not pre-galvanising at all, that process dates from long before any of us was born (and by the way, it's actually hot-dip galvanised - a misnomer - rather than electroplated

Yes I much prefer HDG - Hop Dip Galvanised to electroplate. Under the electron microscope and indeed an optical microscope you can actually see the phases and crystal structure. The inter-coat adhesion is superior. Even better if the coating to protect the galv is applied at the factory. More difficult to do in situ as you need an etch primer etc. Galv is not an easy substrate to adhere to. I see that on parts of the WCML south of Stafford they have already started to paint and repair the galv structures.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

BTW - which ancient signal wiring at Betchley?

Well, by ancient I mean some of the 1960s wiring for Bletchley PSB.
At some point, the reliability had deteriorated to the point where it had to be replaced, needing extra possessions, while the project to resignal the area into Rugby ROC was already in progress (ie it was done twice within a short period).
The villain in the piece was the deferment out of WCRM of the Bletchley and Watford resignalling, to get the cost down to £8 billion.
All history now, of course.

At Liverpool, I'd hope the initial upgrade project scoping was based on analysis of the condition of the assets.
ORR has been banging a drum about NR's asset knowledge for a long time.

 

[notlob.divad]

At Liverpool, I'd hope the initial upgrade project scoping was based on analysis of the condition of the assets.
ORR has been banging a drum about NR's asset knowledge for a long time.

This

Surely not! That and limited access to the infrastructure and limited time to do any work when you get on there wouldn't have anything to do with this kind of thing happening .

Whats odd is not understanding the phrases : project scope & authorised budget.

The project delivers the scope of work authorised. If work isnt in that scope and isnt funded it doesn't get done ( subject to certain caveats). If the project is to replace structure numbers 1-27 and this is number 37 it isnt getting done.

I think people understand the ideas of scope and budget, but also that in 'most' projects, scope an budget are set after first inspecting the aite to see what works needs doing. As has been said this has not happened overnight, but I would not be surprised if it has seen a rapid deteriation in its condtion. I am also happy to accept that an arguement over capex and opex is a contributory factor. However either way, it should have been spotted prior to needing an emergency shutdown of the line

No problem fixing that. Which of the other on track tasks shall NR stop to divert resources (both physical and financial) to this type of work....................

As this falls well and truely within the scope of safety, just like the wall last year, an OHLE gantry collapsing into the cutting potentially containing several fuply loaded passenger trains has such a catastrophic potential that it would be prioritised above most other on track work. Certainly above digging a new tunnel under London, probably over most of the electrification work that is ongoing.

 

[DarloRich]

Well, by ancient I mean some of the 1960s wiring for Bletchley PSB.
At some point, the reliability had deteriorated to the point where it had to be replaced, needing extra possessions, while the project to resignal the area into Rugby ROC was already in progress (ie it was done twice within a short period).
The villain in the piece was the deferment out of WCRM of the Bletchley and Watford resignalling, to get the cost down to £8 billion.
All history now, of course.

At Liverpool, I'd hope the initial upgrade project scoping was based on analysis of the condition of the assets.
ORR has been banging a drum about NR's asset knowledge for a long time.

This

I think people understand the ideas of scope and budget, but also that in 'most' projects, scope an budget are set after first inspecting the aite to see what works needs doing. As has been said this has not happened overnight, but I would not be surprised if it has seen a rapid deteriation in its condtion. I am also happy to accept that an arguement over capex and opex is a contributory factor. However either way, it should have been spotted prior to needing an emergency shutdown of the line.

Indeed. However you are assuming this structure is within the area that was worked on under the recent project and that replacement of structures of this type fell within their purview. I do not know. It may not be. If it isnt it can hardly be a criticism of the people scoping a project if they focused on the area they were told to focus on! If it is..............................

BTW - was the wall collapse not the result of the actions of third parties off the railway coupled with excess rainfall?

 

[furnessvale]

I doubt any on board camera would have spotted the problem. The issue looks to be in the root of the gantry against the cutting wall. You need inspection with the mki eyeball on a regular basis to spot this kind of thing.

Agreed, but at least a camera system (being manually reviewed in the office) would highlight those areas which need additional mk1 eyeball attention