Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[WelshBluebird]

So if the ticket required is not available via the TVMs on the day of travel, then I would argue that the situation is the same as the one I was in. Buy a ticket to the nearest interchange / ticket office facility, then buy the required ticket for onward travel. Then if you can do so, remember to buy in advance.

Please say you are not being serious? If a ToC fail to provide the facilities to sell you the ticket that you require, then to suggest the passenger has two pay twice and take the hit is utterly insane.

 

[Bantamzen]

Please say you are not being serious? If a ToC fail to provide the facilities to sell you the ticket that you require, then to suggest the passenger has two pay twice and take the hit is utterly insane.

Its long been the case, as in my MCard example. Certainly in West Yorkshire there are a number of tickets you can't buy at TVMs, and some onboard. Some of these tickets are primarily Metro products, that are accepted by the TOCs / bus operators here. If you went up to a VTEC TVM you would potentially be as unlikely to buy all the Metro products in the same way you can't buy all of them from Northern's TVMs. Frankly some of these tickets are probably on the verge of extinction anyway with ever reducing subsidies, and competition from operator only tickets, particularly on buses.

And it isn't paying twice, it is paying for the section of your journey until you can reach a facility that sells the product required. But most can be bought in advance, so unless its a spur of the moment decision thinking ahead saves a lot of hassle and money.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Its long been the case, as in my MCard example. Certainly in West Yorkshire there are a number of tickets you can't buy at TVMs, and some onboard. Some of these tickets are primarily Metro products, that are accepted by the TOCs / bus operators here. If you went up to a VTEC TVM you would potentially be as unlikely to buy all the Metro products in the same way you can't buy all of them from Northern's TVMs. Frankly some of these tickets are probably on the verge of extinction anyway with ever reducing subsidies, and competition from operator only tickets, particularly on buses.

And it isn't paying twice, it is paying for the section of your journey until you can reach a facility that sells the product required. But most can be bought in advance, so unless its a spur of the moment decision thinking ahead saves a lot of hassle and money.

How would it not be paying twice? Say you want to buy a rover, using your logic you'd have to buy a single to somewhere else, and buy the rover, despite the fact the rover would have covered the single too. Hence paying twice.

I'll be honest I am not sure of the exact rules now since the conditions of carriage became the conditions of travel, but it used to be the case that the official advice was to buy the cheapest single to somewhere where you could buy your wanted ticket, and then get a refund on the initial single. I believe this may have now changed in the conditions of travel, but I haven't really checked tbh. I still think this is insane, but at least you aren't paying twice. In practice many ToC's would have just said don't worry about faffing with a single and buy the ticked you want at the first chance.

Regional non railway specific tickets like your MCard are pretty different to normal tickets so I am not sure of the actual T&C's of them, and season tickets are treated differently again (some ToC's let you renew online, some let you claim back a refund for the single fair if you forget your season ticket etc).

As for buying in advance, I guess that gives an interesting question. Certain products like season tickets and some regional non railway specific tickets are always seen as something a bit different to normal tickets in that you do often have to buy them in advance. But "normal" tickets (including rovers etc) have never had that expectation.

 

[Clip]

How would it not be paying twice? Say you want to buy a rover, using your logic you'd have to buy a single to somewhere else, and buy the rover, despite the fact the rover would have covered the single too. Hence paying twice.

.

You would surrender the single's value to come off the price of the rover I should imagine hence not paying twice

 

[WelshBluebird]

You would surrender the single's value to come off the price of the rover I should imagine hence not paying twice

I believe that was the official advice under the conditions of carriage, not 100% sure if it is the same under the conditions of travel. And in any case was not what Bantamzen was suggesting as he specifically mentioned about "taking the hit".

 

[Bantamzen]

Let me repeat, in the past when I have not renewed my MCard in time there were no facilities to do so at my home station. So I would buy a single ticket to where I could, then renew as normal, therefore taking a hit because I hadn't renewed in time. Similarly if you wish to buy a ticket that is not available from a TVM then you would do the same. You don't have a valid ticket at your starting point so you buy one to the point at which you can buy the one of your choice.

Now if people are expecting TOCs to offer every ticket combo under sun at their TVMs or from the guards, well then that is a whole other argument. Whilst we have multiple operators and PTEs offering different fare and ticket combinations you will never reach a point where one point of sale offers all. So where you know you are going to need to renew a season, or you are planning to travel on a rover then plan and buy in advance.

Personally I would love a system where every ticket could be bought from every outlet. But this the real world, and one where companies often compete for passengers and income so are not inclinded to offer every single combination. So you do what you do to get from A to B and back again.

 

[lejog]

I believe that was the official advice under the conditions of carriage, not 100% sure if it is the same under the conditions of travel. And in any case was not what Bantamzen was suggesting as he specifically mentioned about "taking the hit".

Indeed the NRCOC specifically covered this situation:

If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. You must then, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

Absolutely no need to "take a hit", I have on occasion "excessed" single tickets from a TVM to a WYMetro product at ticket office without a problem.

 

[30907]

At Beckenham, the ticket office can be accessed from the up platforms by a bridge within the station. Adds minimal journey time. At Steeton from the car park, you have to enter the station, walk along the platform, leave the station to walk up to the main road and back down before reaching the TVM.

I quite agree. My comment was on post #358 on the general principle not about Steeton and Silsden, a station I know well enough.
I would be surprised if there was a huge amount of originating traffic towards Skipton, let alone car park users (even with Skipton town centre parking charges....) but things may have changed since my day.
The simplest solution, assuming Northern don't want their OBS issuing lots of tickets routinely, is as for Cononley: NOT to enforce the PF zone and issue tickets at Skipton. I don't think Steeton to Cononley is such a big flow as to cause problems - from the hospital the 666 bus (sorry, 66 now) is a far better bet!

 

[johntea]

MCard were a pain to top up, but not so bad now as *most* TVMs around West Yorkshire should have the ability to top them up and provide your counterpart rail ticket, assuming you're paying by card rather than cash of course.

 

[Bantamzen]

Indeed the NRCOC specifically covered this situation:

Absolutely no need to "take a hit", I have on occasion "excessed" single tickets from a TVM to a WYMetro product at ticket office without a problem.

But the NRCOC is no longer applicable, it has I believe been changed to the National Rail Conditions of Travel 2016?

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/Conditions of Travel 2016.pdf

Now I've only had a brief flick through the relevant sections, but there seems to be no specific mention of this here. Now I may be missing something so I'll take a longer look but so far I can see nothing that relates particularly to types of tickets being unavailable at the start of travel where provision is made for purchasing tickets.

Edit:

And here is the new wording:

6.3 You must have in your possession a valid Ticket before you board a train unless one of the following circumstances applies:
(a) At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine in working order and, where notices indicate that you are in a Penalty Fares area you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine at the station where you start your journey – see section 10 for more information about Penalty Fares; or
(b) Where you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised member of staff or notice of the Train Company whose service you intend to board; or
(c) You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the station you are departing from are not suitably accessible.
In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.

So it no longer states that if the type of ticket is not available then these conditions apply. I can't see any other reference on the matter, so therefore as a layman I would say if the type of ticket you want is not available at a TVM or from the guard, you buy a single to a point where it can be bought for your onward journey. Its subtle but notable change of wording.

 

[lejog]

I'm glad to see that you are no longer arguing that passengers "had to take the hit" just because you were unaware of the provisions of the NRCOC and apparently didn't ask for refunds yourself.

But the NRCOC is no longer applicable, it has I believe been changed to the National Rail Conditions of Travel 2016?http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/Conditions of Travel 2016.pdf

Correct, I didn't mention the ramifications of this in the interests of brevity, because the situation is now as clear as mud.

Now I've only had a brief flick through the relevant sections, but there seems to be no specific mention of this here.Now I may be missing something so I'll take a longer look but so far I can see nothing that relates particularly to types of tickets being unavailable at the start of travel where provision is made for purchasing tickets..

Again correct, it has been omitted.

And here is the new wording: ........ So it no longer states that if the type of ticket is not available then these conditions apply. I can't see any other reference on the matter, so therefore as a layman I would say if the type of ticket you want is not available at a TVM or from the guard, you buy a single to a point where it can be bought for your onward journey. Its subtle but notable change of wording.

Incorrect, your quote is the new wording covering ticketless travel. It was never the case that you could travel without a ticket, you always had to buy a ticket/Permit to Travel - the NRCOC explicitly stated this. The NRCOT makes it implicit, by not mentioning non-availability of your required ticket as a reason for ticketless travel. So yes you will have to continue to buy a ticket.

What is no longer explicitly stated is that when you finally get an opportunity to buy the ticket you require, that you get a refund of the price paid for the ticket purchased. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THERE HAS BEEN A CHANGE THAT REFUNDS WILL NOT BE MADE, IT MEANS WHAT HAPPENS IS NO LONGER DEFINED UNDER THE CONTRACT. When matters are undefined in a contract, it is open to negation to reach an agreement, under consumer law take the matter to relevant authority (in this case the ORR?) or to take the matter to court, when the court would decide what constitutes a reasonable solution. I'm pretty sure no court would agree with you that a passenger should pay twice.

 

[Bantamzen]

What is no longer explicitly stated is that when you finally get an opportunity to buy the ticket you require, that you get a refund of the price paid for the ticket purchased. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THERE HAS BEEN A CHANGE THAT REFUNDS WILL NOT BE MADE, IT MEANS WHAT HAPPENS IS NO LONGER DEFINED UNDER THE CONTRACT. When matters are undefined in a contract, it is open to negation to reach an agreement, under consumer law take the matter to relevant authority (in this case the ORR?) or to take the matter to court, when the court would decide what constitutes a reasonable solution. I'm pretty sure no court would agree with you that a passenger should pay twice.

There's no need to shout there!!

As for the omission, I still think that if a ticket type is not available at either a functional TVM or from the guard then you should obtain a ticket to a point at which said ticket can be bought. I think it is no different from wanting say a WY scratch-date Day Rover, which are only available from WY Metro travel centres. If I were to start my journey by bus, they would not be able to sell me one nor would I be able to ask for an offset of the cost when at the travel centre.

I realise we are not going to agree, however I would not want either the risk nor the hassle of taking such a matter to the courts, so personally if I were ever in the such a situation I would simply buy a single and then the required ticket when I could. Others may be more willing to test the scenario, I suspect how this will be handled will vary from TOC to TOC, being left to their discretion rather than defined in the code. But the omission of the definition isn't likely to be an oversight, it will have been considered and very possibly from the request of one or more TOCs / DfT may have been removed. Reading through the code as I now have there seems to be an increased emphasis towards the passengers ensuring that they make themselves aware of the basic requirements of travel and any ticketing options. Given the current administration's desire to move more functionality & ownership to the private sector generally, I am not surprised at that. But that is for another discussion.

However, it does beg the question how many such ticket types can not be bought from either a TVM or guard? Not many I wager, I thought WY MCards might be a problem but the software update pushed to the new TVMs last week included the functionality to allow this along with the Promise To Pay tickets. (Incidentally, in the case of MCards there is/was no provision to offset the cost of any single ticket as they can only be renewed at TVMs, so for these all this is a moot point.)

 

[johntea]

If I have a MCard 1-3 and suddenly decide I want to travel from say Saltaire to Keighley how does that work with this new scheme? Previously quite simple, you would just ask the guard for a Crossflatts to Keighley single/return ticket!

It would be good if you could scan your MCard at a TVM, then it would be able you to offer you a ticket originating from the last valid station based on your zones but it'll never happen as Metro would have to stick their hand in their pocket presumably!

 

[Bantamzen]

If I have a MCard 1-3 and suddenly decide I want to travel from say Saltaire to Keighley how does that work with this new scheme? Previously quite simple, you would just ask the guard for a Crossflatts to Keighley single/return ticket!

It would be good if you could scan your MCard at a TVM, then it would be able you to offer you a ticket originating from the last valid station based on your zones but it'll never happen as Metro would have to stick their hand in their pocket presumably!

A good question, as I have a Zones 1-3 card. If I'm honest if I've ever headed up to Ilkley from Baildon for example I've always just bought a ticket from the starting point (although as I'm usually with my wife and we have a 2 Together card, so we make a saving there). But I guess if you were boarding at a 1-3 station with the next station also in that zone then you have a valid ticket & could just ask the guard for a ticket for the remainder of the journey. I agree it might be good to be able to use the card to do as you suggest, but that might be dipping into split ticketing which we know many TVMs do not do yet.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Northern don't do themselves any favours. On the (busy) Crewe to Manchester today, joining at Goostrey. Guard manages to get to our carriage to sell tickets after Stockport. Two couples ask in the next bay ask for, and are sold, returns to Manchester from Wilmslow. Two issues here

1. They were on the train as we boarded - way before Wilmslow
2. There is both a ticket machine and booking office at Wilmslow

The guard should not have sold the tickets (off peak) and left them to deal with the RPIs at Piccadilly. I'm sure they were working on the reasonable assumption that their short fared tickets would not be checked on the return, or at least not past Wilmslow.

I didn't speak up about their fare dodging as I had my son with me and didn't want him to be part of a scene - I certainly would have stepped in if I were alone.

 

[Merseysider]

Maybe they got on at an unstaffed and held a season/pass for the first part of the journey? Just a thought.

But I’ve seen this before on the Crewe-Airport-Manc trains with people getting checked just before Picc and asking for, and getting sold, a single from Mauldeth Road (the last stop before Picc).

Not worth it to get involved imo.

 

[Starmill]

Please say you are not being serious? If a ToC fail to provide the facilities to sell you the ticket that you require, then to suggest the passenger has two pay twice and take the hit is utterly insane.

Indisputably so.

The guard should not have sold the tickets (off peak) and left them to deal with the RPIs at Piccadilly.

I understand your point, but there is no reason for the guard not to sell the tickets. The guard really has no way to know that they are short-faring. They cannot detect this easily on a busy train. If they are short faring regularly they will get caught in the end. What the guard could do, as you say, is insist on them paying full fare and remind them that they need to use the booking office in future. There is no problem with this, but very few Northern guards do it. I wonder if it is because it takes time and potential hassle.

Not worth it to get involved imo.

In general I think this is good advice. Unless you've asked the right questions, there is a risk that you do not have all of the information.

IT MEANS WHAT HAPPENS IS NO LONGER DEFINED UNDER THE CONTRACT

And this is the problem. The industry has actively decided to move this situation from being something defined (ish) to something entirely undefined. They have chosen to do the same thing with Breaks of Journey too. Such choices will not be without consequences, as they will now find out.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Indisputably so.


I understand your point, but there is no reason for the guard not to sell the tickets. The guard really has no way to know that they are short-faring. They cannot detect this easily on a busy train. If they are short faring regularly they will get caught in the end. What the guard could do, as you say, is insist on them paying full fare and remind them that they need to use the booking office in future. There is no problem with this, but very few Northern guards do it. I wonder if it is because it takes time and potential hassle.

The short faring was annoying. My issue was, as I put at the start of the post, was that Wilmslow has both an open booking office and a ticket machine. If the group *had* boarded at Wilmslow, they should have bought tickets there before boarding. This is a nailed on Byelaw offence if they stuck to their story and they should and could have been prosecuted. Buy a ticket from Sandbach or Holmes Chapel, where they got on and there would be no problem.

 

[Starmill]

My issue was, as I put at the start of the post, was that Wilmslow has both an open booking office and a ticket machine. If the group *had* boarded at Wilmslow, they should have bought tickets there before boarding. This is a nailed on Byelaw offence if they stuck to their story and they should and could have been prosecuted. Buy a ticket from Sandbach or Holmes Chapel, where they got on and there would be no problem.

Yes, I completely understood that. But apart from the measures I outlined, what else is the guard going to do? They can't issue a Penalty Fare and they don't record details for prosecution. Charging a full fare is the only avenue really open to them.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Yes, I completely understood that. But apart from the measures I outlined, what else is the guard going to do? They can't issue a Penalty Fare and they don't record details for prosecution. Charging a full fare is the only avenue really open to them.

And they didn't: they were sold off-peak returns.

Better to leave them to the barrier staff at Piccadilly.

 

[Starmill]

And they didn't: they were sold off-peak returns.

As I say, this is the consistent outcome whenever I see other people doing this on Northern, I have made some guesses as to why this might be, including time constraints and an unwillingness to engage in an "argument" which seem sensible to me. There may be other reasons, these may be wrong. Some guards will tell people that they cannot buy off-peak tickets on the train. Sometimes the fare that would be payable on the train is the same as the fare that would have been payable at the ticket office. For an adult travelling one way only from Holmes Chapel to Manchester Piccadilly with no discounts is £11.10 at all times from the ticket office. It's also £11.10 on the train. It seems very unlikely indeed that the guard would just ignore and walk away from people who are offering to pay but who failed to comply with NRCoT.

I understand that the 'full fare' enforcement became more stringent with NRCoT - the full single fare to a station served by the train that the customer is already on is now chargeable, without the right to ask for a return or for a ticket to a station that the train does not call at. This has the potential to very significantly increase the total fare the customer has to pay by forcing them to buy multiple tickets.

 

[Puffing Devil]

As I say, this is the consistent outcome whenever I see other people doing this on Northern, I have made some guesses as to why this might be, including time constraints and an unwillingness to engage in an "argument" which seem sensible to me. There may be other reasons, these may be wrong. Some guards will tell people that they cannot buy off-peak tickets on the train. Sometimes the fare that would be payable on the train is the same as the fare that would have been payable at the ticket office. For an adult travelling one way only from Holmes Chapel to Manchester Piccadilly with no discounts is £11.10 at all times from the ticket office. It's also £11.10 on the train. It seems very unlikely indeed that the guard would just ignore and walk away from people who are offering to pay but who failed to comply with NRCoT.

I understand that the 'full fare' enforcement became more stringent with NRCoT - the full single fare to a station served by the train that the customer is already on is now chargeable, without the right to ask for a return or for a ticket to a station that the train does not call at. This has the potential to very significantly increase the total fare the customer has to pay by forcing them to buy multiple tickets.

The adult fare from Holmes Chapel is irrelevant, as is the short faring: if Northern are wanting to be serious about enforcement, the guards must stop selling discounted tickets from stations where your should be able to buy before you board, eg. Wilmslow. If the guard wants to avoid conflict and the passengers refuse to purchase the full price single, leave it to the RPIs on the gate at Piccadilly or phone ahead to have the train met.

It's only by challenging this behaviour will it be reduced.

 

[Starmill]

The adult fare from Holmes Chapel is irrelevant

It has nothing to do with Holes Chapel, it's a principle I was highlighting and I used that as an example. The principle is relevant.

Consider this: if the guard did as you say, if they had used an ungated exit at Piccadilly, boarded another train or left the train at a station other than Piccadilly they could have paid £0 for that part of their journey.

 

[Puffing Devil]

It has nothing to do with Holes Chapel, it's a principle I was highlighting and I used that as an example. The principle is relevant.

Small typo, maybe a Freudian Slip? Made me laugh, though the good burghers of HC may be unhappy.

Consider this: if the guard did as you say, if they had used an ungated exit at Piccadilly, boarded another train or left the train at a station other than Piccadilly they could have paid £0 for that part of their journey.

We're well into the realm of speculation.

My preference would be for the guard to sell the correct ticket. End of. If the pax refused to pay, the guard can then leave the matter to avoid escalation, and let the RPIs pick them up, or call ahead to have the train met.

In this specific case, back to my OP, the group were travelling to Piccadilly, they were dressed for a session in Manchester and it would be very unlikely that they would board a train elsewhere and/or be able to find an exit without a NR Contractor. When I left the station all the ingresses from the main trainshed were staffed.

 

[Starmill]

In this specific case, back to my OP, the group were travelling to Piccadilly, they were dressed for a session in Manchester and it would be very unlikely that they would board a train elsewhere and/or be able to find an exit without a NR Contractor. When I left the station all the ingresses from the main trainshed were staffed.

You extended the view that it would be better to "leave them to the RPIs" than to sell a ticket. I was pointing out that if this happened, that could actually result in more people travelling without tickets.

I understand what you mean about what you would prefer the guard to do. If you wish to dictate how they ought do their jobs to them, then that's fine, I shan't stop you. I do wonder if they will consider your advice in their duties though.

 

[Puffing Devil]

You extended the view that it would be better to "leave them to the RPIs" than to sell a ticket. I was pointing out that if this happened, that could actually result in more people travelling without tickets.

I understand what you mean about what you would prefer the guard to do. If you wish to dictate how they ought do their jobs to them, then that's fine, I shan't stop you. I do wonder if they will consider your advice in their duties though.

That's quite a leap from prefer to dictate. I'm out.

 

[xotGD]

This evening, guard sold tickets to two passengers in my carriage on Airedale service. No mention of the Penalty Fares system. I think one of the passengers was short faring too.

 

[185143]

I was on a 319 to the Airport once-someone near me asked for a single from East Didsbury (I think-it was whatever the previous stop was anyway) which immediately caught my attention as he'd been sat there since Piccadilly. The guard refused to sell the ticket, telling the passenger no one had boarded there and asked again where he'd boarded.

I decided if he said anything other than Piccadilly I'd speak up. He did reluctantly admit he'd boarded at Piccadilly and was subsequently given a ticket from there.

 

[daodao]

A good question, as I have a Zones 1-3 card. If I'm honest if I've ever headed up to Ilkley from Baildon for example I've always just bought a ticket from the starting point (although as I'm usually with my wife and we have a 2 Together card, so we make a saving there). But I guess if you were boarding at a 1-3 station with the next station also in that zone then you have a valid ticket & could just ask the guard for a ticket for the remainder of the journey. I agree it might be good to be able to use the card to do as you suggest, but that might be dipping into split ticketing which we know many TVMs do not do yet.

Risky. If the guard doesn't reach you to sell you a ticket before the train leaves the zone covered by the travelcard, you would fall foul of the "overtravelling" rule, and could be caught by RPIs at your terminating station beyond the travelcard zone.

 

[daodao]

Northern don't do themselves any favours. On the (busy) Crewe to Manchester today, joining at Goostrey. Guard manages to get to our carriage to sell tickets after Stockport. Two couples ask in the next bay ask for, and are sold, returns to Manchester from Wilmslow. Two issues here

1. They were on the train as we boarded - way before Wilmslow
2. There is both a ticket machine and booking office at Wilmslow

The guard should not have sold the tickets (off peak) and left them to deal with the RPIs at Piccadilly. I'm sure they were working on the reasonable assumption that their short fared tickets would not be checked on the return, or at least not past Wilmslow.

I didn't speak up about their fare dodging as I had my son with me and didn't want him to be part of a scene - I certainly would have stepped in if I were alone.

The other problem with this is that the genuine traveller from a station without ticket-buying facilities might not have an opportunity to buy a ticket from the guard if the guard is occupied with selling tickets to travellers who could have bought a ticket before they boarded. If he/she then arrives at a barriered station with unhelpful RPIs, he/she could end up in a difficult situation. This will be worse when Northern equip such minor stations with a single TVM which then is not working at the time the traveller uses the unmanned station, and the fact that this TVM is out-of-order is not known to such RPIs.