Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[lyndhurst25]

If Skipton and Cononley are to be included in the PF area (post #150 suggested that they may not be), then the set-up at Cononley is quite worrying and possibly dangerous. Am I right in thinking that, like Steeton, Cononley only has a TVM on the southbound platform? However, the walking toute between the two platforms at Cononley is via an automatic barrier road level crossing, rather than a bridge. A passenger wanting to travel from Cononley to Skipton is quite likely to find themselves cut off from the TVM by a closed crossing barrier, or cut off from their train on the way back from the TVM to their platform. Passengers in such circumstances could be tempted to cross the tracks when or where they shouldn't be doing. It's an accident waiting to happen.

 

[island]

I wonder how the passengers of the South East cope when boarding at unstaffed stations (or stations where the ticket office is only open part of the day) where there is only the single TVM as the sole means to purchasing tickets, sometimes even being card only...

They use their card to buy a ticket and then get on the train. Or more commonly, they have a season ticket or Oyster/contactless card.

 

[yorkie]

If Skipton and Cononley are to be included in the PF area (post #150 suggested that they may not be), then the set-up at Cononley is quite worrying and possibly dangerous. Am I right in thinking that, like Steeton, Cononley only has a TVM on the southbound platform? However, the walking toute between the two platforms at Cononley is via an automatic barrier road level crossing, rather than a bridge. A passenger wanting to travel from Cononley to Skipton is quite likely to find themselves cut off from the TVM by a closed crossing barrier, or cut off from their train on the way back from the TVM to their platform. Passengers in such circumstances could be tempted to cross the tracks when or where they shouldn't be doing. It's an accident waiting to happen.

Please do write to Northern asking what customers should do in these circumstances and let us know their response.

 

[Bantamzen]

The SRA rules say what they say. They do not prescribe exact size nor location. That would be rather impractical without the SRA first surveying every station. That is the applicants duty - to ensure that they meet the rules.

Are they still in force?
The franchise (extract up thread, post #182) requires Northern to introduce a Penalty Fares Scheme, and to secure the necessary permission under Section 130 of the Act.

So putting aside opinion on location / size etc, if Northern have put up signs at the entrances to all platforms this would technically constitute complying with the code of practice?

Have they been amended?
I don't know, I have looked, I have sought information but no response has been received to date. Perhaps it will come gift-wrapped in time for Crimbo. The DfT website contains exactly zero on the subject of penalty fares. Not even a legacy / archived web page. The Northern website contains the press release and some pizzpoor Q & A linked to in a previous post. ORR make it quite clear that it's nowt to do with them.

I have further trawled the internet.

Penalty Services, a main processor of Penalty Fares appeals, have the SRA Penalty Fares Rules 2002 and SRA Penalty Fares Policy 2002 on their website as reference documents. So I think it reasonable to assume that they are current.

Like you I have conducted quite an extensive search for more up to date guidance. Clearly there is nothing on the current DfT section of Gov.uk, and as it can be assumed that DfT took over responsibility for the codes following the SRA being disbanded then Northern *could* argue that they (I assume) consulted with the DfT over the issue of the required revenue protection, and subsequently over the PF scheme that they are complying with the requirements of the regulator (being DfT)? Its a highly cynical view I admit, but an appeal against a PF could be knocked back if it solely hinged on the words and interpretation of the SRA code, as this body no longer exists and DfT do not seem to publicly publish the current requirements. I certainly wouldn't ever want to have to make an appeal on the basis that I felt Northern were not complying with this code as things stand. No doubt at some point someone will, and maybe it a way its need to force DfT's hand and make public exactly if they did take over the SRA code and have not made any subsequent changes to it? We shall see. Either way it leaves a rather conspicuous hole where up to date guidance really ought to be.

In the meantime Northern are playing audio announcements as well as having the disputed signs and posters on platforms, trains as well as across social and local media either directly or indirectly. I know some people don't agree, but I would say that they have at least complied with a very basic requirement to make people aware prior to boarding.

 

[MG11]

Please do write to Northern asking what customers should do in these circumstances and let us know their response.

It is the passenger's responsibility to allow enough time to buy a ticket.

 

[northwichcat]

It is the passenger's responsibility to allow enough time to buy a ticket.

A passenger has to allow 3 minutes at off-peak times and 6 at peak times. If Northern can't sell tickets within those times, passengers shouldn't be forced to miss the train.

 

[xotGD]

Are the VTEC services subject to the penalty fare scheme or could you board, say, the Skipton - KX at Keighley without a ticket or 'Promise to Pay' and then pay at the window at Leeds?

 

[northwichcat]

This particular example says "pay in full by cash only". Is this by cash condition true for all PTP's ??

I can see some problems with that:
1. The TVM might be able to issue 'promise to pay' notices but not able to take card payments.
2. The TVM might not sell the type of ticket you require e.g. a PTE ticket.
3. You might want to buy a split ticket combination and the TVM can only sell you the first ticket you require.
4. The TVM can't excess an existing ticket.

 

[Adlington]

I can see some problems with that:
1. The TVM might be able to issue 'promise to pay' notices but not able to take card payments.
2. The TVM might not sell the type of ticket you require e.g. a PTE ticket.
3. You might want to buy a split ticket combination and the TVM can only sell you the first ticket you require.
4. The TVM can't excess an existing ticket.

I was referring to the picture in this post, which says you must pay the correct fare by cash on the train or at the destination. My question is that usually you can pay by credit card, even on the train, so why this "cash only" restriction for PTP holders??

 

[northwichcat]

I was referring to the picture in this post, which says you must pay the correct fare by cash on the train or at the destination. My question is that usually you can pay by credit card, even on the train, so why this "cash only" restriction for PTP holders??

Northern seem to suggesting you've had a chance to pay by card (at the TVM) so if you've not got a ticket before boarding it's because you want to pay by cash, which has the 4 problems I listed (and potentially more.)

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Many of the very specific problems being raised are easily covered by the following extract from the SRA Penalty Fares Policy.

4.30 Using discretion. Authorised collectors must be given the discretion not to charge a penalty


fare in a particular instance, even where the passenger is liable to pay a penalty fare under the

Penalty Fares Rules. Operators must think carefully about the guidelines they give to

authorised collectors about how they should use this discretion.

Has anyone seen the guidelines issued to 'Authorised Collectors'.

Indeed, has anyone any information on who has been trained and appointed as 'Authorised Collectors'

‘the arrangements for selling tickets on board penalty fares trains’


5.17 The description of the scheme should normally say one of the following.

a The operator does not intend to train its on-train staff as authorised collectors. However,

staff who are not trained as authorised collectors will not be allowed to sell tickets on

board penalty fares trains unless they are accompanied by an authorised collector.

b The operator will train its on-train staff as authorised collectors. Any staff who are not

trained as authorised collectors will not be allowed to sell tickets on board penalty fares

trains unless they are accompanied by an authorised collector.

c The operator does not intend to train on-train staff as authorised collectors. On-train

staff will check and sell tickets on board penalty fares trains, but will give a printed penalty

fares warning to any passenger who is liable to a penalty fare, and draw that passenger’s

attention to the warning.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Are the VTEC services subject to the penalty fare scheme or could you board, say, the Skipton - KX at Keighley without a ticket or 'Promise to Pay' and then pay at the window at Leeds?

SRA Penalty Fares Policy 2002.

5.19 The description of the scheme must name any penalty fares stations or stations with a CTA


which are served by trains of other operators (including London Underground). If another

operator does not have a penalty fares scheme covering trains calling at that station, the

scheme must say that passengers without tickets getting on or off that operator’s trains at that

station will not be charged penalty fares, but will be dealt with in line with the current

National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

 

[yorkie]

It is the passenger's responsibility to allow enough time to buy a ticket.

How long is that?

 

[yorkie]

Are the VTEC services subject to the penalty fare scheme or could you board, say, the Skipton - KX at Keighley without a ticket or 'Promise to Pay' and then pay at the window at Leeds?

Virgin Trains East Coast do not operate a Penalty Fare scheme; you cannot be issued with a Penalty Fare if you travel with them.

 

[A Challenge]

How long is that?

I think this post answers your question - otherwise Northern are breaking their own rules!

A passenger has to allow 3 minutes at off-peak times and 6 at peak times. If Northern can't sell tickets within those times, passengers shouldn't be forced to miss the train.

 

[30907]

It is difficult to define, but at a station such as Church Fenton (only one entrance, but many platforms) one would suffice, whereas Garforth would require at least two.

There are, however, a fair few stations with more than one entrance where the only place to buy tickets (booking office or machine) is on the opposite platform and has been for years. Two I am very familiar with are Penge East (never been an office on the down side) and Beckenham Junction (office closed 50-odd years ago. No alteration was made when PFs were introduced (pre Oyster), so I am not sure your opinion is more than that - though I basically agree with it!

Back to Airedale though - Cononley is a serious problem as there is significant originating traffic on the Down side, and the simple solution is not to levy PFs Skipton-bound (tickets could be issued at Skipton or on the connecting service) - or to install another machine!

 

[lyndhurst25]

It is the passenger's responsibility to allow enough time to buy a ticket.

I've seen it quoted in the press that the nearby level crossing at Kildwick can have its barriers down of 45+ minutes in the hour, so I imagine that the one at Cononley station will be similarly bad. For those who think that a single TVM on the southbound platform at Cononley isn't an issue and that passengers should simply arrive sooner or wait until the next train, need to look at the RAIB report into the 2005 Elsenham station foot crossing accident. Paragraph 359 of the full report is especially relevant.

https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/inv...g-pedestrian-gates-at-highway-level-crossings

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c9062e5274a42900001d1/R232006_061211_Elsenham.pdf


Level crossings will be misused. I've seen impatient people vault the barriers at Kildwick due to the long waits. Do Northern think that the introduction of a Penalty Fares scheme, combined with a single TVM on the southbound platform at Cononley, is going to make passengers more or less likely to take a chance and cross the running lines when the crossing barriers are closed, which they often are?

 

[30907]

I've seen it quoted in the press that the nearby level crossing at Kildwick can have its barriers down of 45+ minutes in the hour, so I imagine that the one at Cononley station will be similarly bad. Do Northern think that the introduction of a Penalty Fares scheme, combined with a single TVM on the southbound platform at Cononley, is going to make passengers more or less likely to take a chance and cross the running lines when the crossing barriers are closed, which they offer are?

I entirely agree (I used to live there!) - it may not be 45 minutes, but it can be long enough. The particular issue is that nearly all the village is on the Down side so a Down passenger has to cross the line twice to get a ticket from the Up platform.

 

[Deerfold]

I've picked up a Northern leaflet about the scheme. It makes no reference to which stations (or lines) are covered and states all information is correct as at October 2017. If I had no prior knowledge before reading it, I'd probably assume it covered their entire network. It makes no reference to Penalty Fare stations.

It largely duplicates https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/penalty-faresbut without the section that says

AT THIS TIME PENALTY FARES ONLY APPLY TO NORTHERN SERVICES ON THE AIREDALE AND WHARFEDALE LINES IN WEST YORKSHIRE.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I've picked up a Northern leaflet about the scheme. It makes no reference to which stations (or lines) are covered and states all information is correct as at October 2017. If I had no prior knowledge before reading it, I'd probably assume it covered their entire network. It makes no reference to Penalty Fare stations.

It largely duplicates https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/penalty-faresbut without the section that says

Interesting that it is 'correct at October 2017' when their scheme did not commence until December. The guidance suggests that there should be a map showing PF stations, a list of said stations and a list of trains (or groups of services) i.e. are Morecambe and Carlisle services included? We can assume VTEC services are not included but they really ought to be clear about this on publicity.

A feeling of a lack of preparation, lack of detailed knowledge of the procedures and of rushed implementation hovers over the whole process. A shame really as this was their one chance to prove they had moved on from Penalty Fakes and wished to do things in a competent professional manner. Their haphazard approach can only give other Penalty Fares Schemes a bad name in the eyes of Northerners. Perhaps somebody wants the trial to fail so they can go back to much easier and much more lucrative administrative charges. Would you rather have £20 or £80 plus rail fare due?

 

[Moonshot]

Interesting that it is 'correct at October 2017' when their scheme did not commence until December. The guidance suggests that there should be a map showing PF stations, a list of said stations and a list of trains (or groups of services) i.e. are Morecambe and Carlisle services included? We can assume VTEC services are not included but they really ought to be clear about this on publicity.

A feeling of a lack of preparation, lack of detailed knowledge of the procedures and of rushed implementation hovers over the whole process. A shame really as this was their one chance to prove they had moved on from Penalty Fakes and wished to do things in a competent professional manner. Their haphazard approach can only give other Penalty Fares Schemes a bad name in the eyes of Northerners. Perhaps somebody wants the trial to fail so they can go back to much easier and much more lucrative administrative charges. Would you rather have £20 or £80 plus rail fare due?

Of course the proof will be in the pudding when there is sufficient data on how many £20 penalties have been issued at some point in the future. Worth pointing out that Northern passenger growth is around 10% year on year reagrdless of the negative sentiment on this thread, clearly there are more actually paying fares anyway

 

[323235]

Northern have now overhauled their penalty fare page online which is in a much bolder font and is now much more in line with the wording and clarity of other schemes. It now states that if the ticket you want isn't available you must buy a single ticket to your interchange station and also that promise to pay is only for cash payment.

Still no mention of paying by travel vouchers but it is progress at least.

 

[Deerfold]

Well, I took a trip from Keighley tonight. Ticket office locked up. Only TVM in ticket office. Guard disappeared into cab after closing doors. Only appeared again to open the doors.

I had my fare in hand but no-one seemed to want it.

There were penalty fare notices all over the train. The one at Keighley I'd have missed if I hadn't seen where it was in good light.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

There are, however, a fair few stations with more than one entrance where the only place to buy tickets (booking office or machine) is on the opposite platform and has been for years. Two I am very familiar with are Penge East (never been an office on the down side) and Beckenham Junction (office closed 50-odd years ago.

At Beckenham, the ticket office can be accessed from the up platforms by a bridge within the station. Adds minimal journey time. At Steeton from the car park, you have to enter the station, walk along the platform, leave the station to walk up to the main road and back down before reaching the TVM.

 

[Deerfold]

At Beckenham, the ticket office can be accessed from the up platforms by a bridge within the station. Adds minimal journey time. At Steeton from the car park, you have to enter the station, walk along the platform, leave the station to walk up to the main road and back down before reaching the TVM.

Indeed - It's about 1/2 km and around 60 steps - or, avoiding the steps, around a kilometre.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Northern have now overhauled their penalty fare page online which is in a much bolder font and is now much more in line with the wording and clarity of other schemes. It now states that if the ticket you want isn't available you must buy a single ticket to your interchange station and also that promise to pay is only for cash payment.

Still no mention of paying by travel vouchers but it is progress at least.

But it doesn't mention that the cost of the single ticket to the interchange station will be refunded. I presume that it would be? The current wording suggests that you have to pay for the single ticket to the interchange and then buy, for example your West Yorkshire Day Rover, in addition. That's going to, unnecessarily, put people off travelling.

Re. Steeton: it is a long walk between the platforms, especially if you can't manage the steps, but what really annoys me is that Northern can't be bothered to put notices on the northbound platform to tell passengers that the station has a TVM and where to find it. I suppose that they'd rather just collect the PFs from unknowing passengers.

Re. Cononley: I have written to Northern to ask them how long I should allow to cross the tracks twice in order to buy a ticket, without fear of being prevented from doing so by the level-crossing barriers being closed. I suspect the correct answer is well in excess of the 3/5 minutes acceptable queuing times to buy tickets that Northern state on their website.

 

[Starmill]

The current wording suggests that you have to pay for the single ticket to the interchange and then buy, for example your West Yorkshire Day Rover, in addition. That's going to, unnecessarily, put people off travelling.

I don't see any way such a requirement could be enforced. There's no provision that I'm aware of to charge customers for the same journey twice because ticket buying facilities weren't available.

 

[Bantamzen]

Northern have now overhauled their penalty fare page online which is in a much bolder font and is now much more in line with the wording and clarity of other schemes. It now states that if the ticket you want isn't available you must buy a single ticket to your interchange station and also that promise to pay is only for cash payment.

Still no mention of paying by travel vouchers but it is progress at least.

I don't see any way such a requirement could be enforced. There's no provision that I'm aware of to charge customers for the same journey twice because ticket buying facilities weren't available.

Prior to the installation of the TVM at Baildon, on at least a couple of occasions I had stupidly forgotten to renew my monthly MCard before the expiration. So as the facility was not available to do so at Baildon at the start of my daily commute, I had no choice but to buy a single to Guiseley or Shipley, then renew my ticket there and take the hit. So if the ticket required is not available via the TVMs on the day of travel, then I would argue that the situation is the same as the one I was in. Buy a ticket to the nearest interchange / ticket office facility, then buy the required ticket for onward travel. Then if you can do so, remember to buy in advance.

However if the ticket required is normally available from the TVM and this was out of order, then Northern have not provided the facility and as such they should be obliged to allow you to just the required ticket onboard or at the interchange / ticket office. If for any reason you are forced to buy a single as well, which I would hope most guards would not do, then I would suggest claiming the cost back from Northern citing their guidance about providing facilities. However in the particular case of the West Yorkshire Day Rover, the guidance on buying is described on the Metro pages:

https://ticketsandpasses.wymetro.com/where-to-buy-day-tickets/

DayRover tickets come in two types: scratch-off or pre-dated, depending on when you want to travel.

Family DayRover and Train & Bus DayRover 'scratch-off' tickets can be bought from:

• Bradford Interchange
• Bus stations at Dewsbury, Halifax, Huddersfield, Keighley, Leeds, Pontefract & Wakefield.
• Holmfirth Tourist Information Centre

Pre-dated Train & Bus DayRover and Train DayRover are sold at rail stations. You can buy them on the day of use or in advance if you know when you want to travel. You cannot buy these on the train.

Train only DayRovers can be bought from:

• Staffed rail stations
• On the train if there is no booking office open, or it is an unstaffed station.

These are not available via TVMs anyway so if you were starting a journey intending to use one but not yet in possession of it, then it would be available onboard from then guard (for train only versions).

 

[Wolfie]

Like you I have conducted quite an extensive search for more up to date guidance. Clearly there is nothing on the current DfT section of Gov.uk, and as it can be assumed that DfT took over responsibility for the codes following the SRA being disbanded then Northern *could* argue that they (I assume) consulted with the DfT over the issue of the required revenue protection, and subsequently over the PF scheme that they are complying with the requirements of the regulator (being DfT)? Its a highly cynical view I admit, but an appeal against a PF could be knocked back if it solely hinged on the words and interpretation of the SRA code, as this body no longer exists and DfT do not seem to publicly publish the current requirements. I certainly wouldn't ever want to have to make an appeal on the basis that I felt Northern were not complying with this code as things stand. No doubt at some point someone will, and maybe it a way its need to force DfT's hand and make public exactly if they did take over the SRA code and have not made any subsequent changes to it? We shall see. Either way it leaves a rather conspicuous hole where up to date guidance really ought to be.

Make a Freedom of Information request to DfT. Easy and free!

 

[Bantamzen]

Make a Freedom of Information request to DfT. Easy and free!

To be honest I'm not overly concerned with it in the context of this thread, it was more curiosity at the time. But if someone does I'm sure it would be interesting to see.