"if you dont have an advance ticket"

[yorkie]

The ticket inspector comes and says that unless she buys a new ticket that she will be kicked off at Wakefield.

Did she show her ticket to the inspector?

What ticket(s) did she hold exactly (ie, origin, ticket type etc) and what was the full journey she was making?

1) Is this actual procedure? I've certainly never heard it before.

No it is not. But there may have been a misunderstanding

2) If she had bought a new ticket, what would it have been? An anytime single? What difference would that have made to the fact she was on a busy train?

If she held an Advance fare for the wrong train, the correct action is to charge the lowest (ie. [Super] Off Peak [Day]) and not an Anytime. There is no provision to charge extra if she held a valid ticket for that train.

I did say to her she was risking it refusing to move, but I can't blame her really. She had paid her fare. It wasn't as if she was using a train specific ticket herself, it was an open off peak return.

If she held an Off Peak Return and showed it to the Guard then the Guard has absolutely no rights to charge her extra. If that really did happen, please do ensure you report this to VTEC for investigation urgently.

Her wording throughout has also been totally consistent. 'if you don't have an advance ticket' not a 'if you don't have an advance for this train" which of course would be a totally reasonable announcement (albeit it then goes out the window if the ticket is a valid off peak one)

If she is certain about that, then she really does need to write to the company about this, as that is very concerning.

If VTEC do not give an adequate response, she can escalate the matter to Transport Focus.

 

[Nev20]

Reading the GF's account, I am convinced that she misunderstood the directive that IF on an Advance ticket, it must be for this train, and then due to her starting to explain that she didn't have an Advance ticket for this train it got lost in translation and the ticket inspector took it that she had an Advance, but for a different service. Just crossed wires I imagine.

Nope, she is adamant that it was if you don't have an advance ticket *period* get off the train. Not the usual bog standard make sure it's valid for this train. Even weirder that it was stated specifically because of the busy nature of it. A TM wouldn't go 'Make sure your advance is for this train as its busy' would they? It would be because your ticket isn't valid full stop if not.

A few things that cross my mind here.

I came to the conclusion as i read the original post similar to others that the announcement might have been "Advance tickets not for this train are not valid and you'll have to buy a new ticket" Implying that the restriction is only for other advanced tickets. I also assume maybe the ticket inspector did not see the ticket was not an advance. Did your girlfriend say anything initially to the guard or did she just show the ticket? As others have said, one with a standard ticket would be sold the exact same product to enable them to stay on the train? This seems very odd indeed.
It also seems like the guard did a good job of getting through the train that was clearly overcrowded (the reason this whole topic is here) in order to check tickets so early on the journey.

It is perfectly reasonable for staff to stop people boarding when the service is full and standing to prevent overcrowding, it is also reasonable for them to at their discretion allow certain ticket types on such as advances and tickets with a seat reservation. I would argue it is unfair to ask people who have already boarded to leave a service, this shows incompetence on their part for not having staff assist and restrict boarding from the moment the train was eligible to board.


Another important part is the announcement itself. Speech intelligibility on trains is often unacceptable, on board staff that use the PA system often have insufficient training in how to speak and where to speak, couple this with faulty equipment on board and quite often you will not hear announcements in one part of the train, and then will be deafened on the next train. it's something i feel strongly about but the TOC do not see it as a priority. It would be entirely feasible for someone with perfect hearing to miss part of an announcement, or misunderstand it.
I would happily argue that a change to the rules CANNOT be enforced on a service by way of an on board announcement alone. By doing this VTEC would be suggesting that someone who does not understand English or someone who is hard of hearing are to be penalised financially for that.

I'm not sure on exact wording of the chat, but she showed him the ticket. He looked at it and said you need a new one. On the basis of what the tannoy had declared beforehand. So it was PURELY down to not having an advance ticket for that train *in general*.

Did she show her ticket to the inspector?

What ticket(s) did she hold exactly (ie, origin, ticket type etc) and what was the full journey she was making?


No it is not. But there may have been a misunderstanding

If she held an Advance fare for the wrong train, the correct action is to charge the lowest (ie. [Super] Off Peak [Day]) and not an Anytime. There is no provision to charge extra if she held a valid ticket for that train.

If she held an Off Peak Return and showed it to the Guard then the Guard has absolutely no rights to charge her extra. If that really did happen, please do ensure you report this to VTEC for investigation urgently.


If she is certain about that, then she really does need to write to the company about this, as that is very concerning.

If VTEC do not give an adequate response, she can escalate the matter to Transport Focus.

Showed the ticket. It was an Anytime Return as it happens from Wakefield to Leeds with 16-25 railcard. And it was returning back to Westgate on the 15:05.

I'm not sure what she wants to do about it. She was a bit shook up at the time, but doesn't want to press on with it. I on the other hand do.

Sorry for it being a long post. Haven't got the hand of multi quoting just yet!

 

[Merseysider]

If what you say is true then it sounds like a guard making up his own rules, which needs bringing to VTEC’s attention.

 

[yorkie]

The vast majority Guards on VTEC are great but there are one or two who have been caught acting in an appalling way, so if this did happen it should be reported. No-one else should have to experience this in future.

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/customer-service/contact-us/complaint/

 

[Nev20]

To be honest, my skeptical opinion is that it's somewhere in the middle. I wouldn't put it past her being confused slightly. However she's not once changed any of the narrative and I've quizzed her a fair few times now.

I will press on with that complaint. Even to just see what VTEC have to say about it.

 

[yorkie]

If she showed her ticket to the Guard and you've seen it was definitely an Anytime ticket and she was asked to pay then clearly something has gone very wrong!

 

[Nev20]

Was definitely an Anytime Ticket as I bought it her at the station along with my Wakefield to Manchester ticket for that day. I'm not even sure if you can get advance tickets between Wakefield and Leeds can you?

 

[yorkie]

Was definitely an Anytime Ticket as I bought it her at the station along with my Wakefield to Manchester ticket for that day. I'm not even sure if you can get advance tickets between Wakefield and Leeds can you?

That's right; you can't.

 

[sheff1]

Was definitely an Anytime Ticket as I bought it her at the station ...

In earlier posts you said it was an Off Peak Day Return. Either way, it would be valid on any train on a Sunday, but there seems to be confusion all round here.

 

[Nev20]

I assumed it was Off Peak as that's usually the cheapest one you can get on most journeys. Went to check earlier if that fare would be valid on the 3:05 next week and it came up as Anytime Return. It was one or the other. In this instance the ticket doesn't actually matter, both were valid.

 

[Starmill]

from Wakefield to Leeds

Presumably the ticket was an Anytime Day Return? If so then I am questioning why she bought that when the Off Peak Day Return would have been valid as it was a Sunday.

 

[Nev20]

She got whatever ticket the ticket machine offered her for the cheapest price coming back that day. All available tickets are valid on that service.

 

[robbeech]

The ticket was perfectly valid, though it seems you bought the Anytime instead of the off peak. Likely the first one you found, and its only £1.10 difference (excluding any railcard stuff going on). Not a big deal. What is turning out to be important is that VTEC need to be questioned on this. Regardless of anything else, i think you should definitely contact them and if nothing else, ask them what they believe their policy to be on this sort of thing. I for one would be interested to know if they think that this sort of action is permissible.

 

[trainophile]

She can't have been the only person not travelling on an Advance. You'd think there would be mass complaints being made to the TOC if this was being enforced for everyone.

Just as a point of interest, a 1505 train wouldn't fall into "peak" anyway would it?

 

[Merseysider]

Not for this journey, but from London to Manchester, it certainly would on a weekday!

 

[yorkie]

She can't have been the only person not travelling on an Advance. You'd think there would be mass complaints being made to the TOC if this was being enforced for everyone.

Most people don't bother complaining when they experience bad service, but if many people are affected then yes even if a small proportion do complain I'd expect multiple complaints.

Just as a point of interest, a 1505 train wouldn't fall into "peak" anyway would it?

I can't imagine any ticket that bars the 1505 Leeds to King's Cross on any day of the week, let alone a weekday.

There will, however, be trains from other stations departing at that time, on other days of the week, that would be barred to the holders of some Off Peak fares.

 

[xotGD]

I don't understand how the ticket inspector threatened to kick her off at Wakefield when she only had a ticket to Wakefield. Suggests that the guard had not seen her ticket and assumed she was going to Kings Cross.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't understand how the ticket inspector threatened to kick her off at Wakefield when she only had a ticket to Wakefield. Suggests that the guard had not seen her ticket and assumed she was going to Kings Cross.

On an Advance for another train, just possibly.

 

[Nev20]

He saw the ticket as his reply to seeing was to declare she needed a new one.

 

[gray1404]

What would this TM have done if a holder of a walk up ticket also held a reservation for the train and was in their reserved seat? Start trying to get money from them too or threaten to kick them off the train?

It would have been interesting to find out what ticket he wanted to sell her? Another Anytime ticket so in effect she's had to pay twice?

It is most concerning that she was told that she would have to get off the train. What if she had been going further South? With onward connections or urgently needed to be in London by a stated time? A vulnerable person travelling alone etc....... but no passenger whatsoever should be threatened with being kicked off the train for this.

I am glad that you have decided to take it up with East Coast. It is just a matter of filling in an online form which, to be honest, takes just as long as your forum posts (if not quicker). It is sometimes best to make a stand to stop this happening to her and others again. I bet this TM is making up further rules of their own and regularly getting away with it.

The TM can make reasonable requests I guess, but it has to be inline with policy and be fair to the customer in order to fulfill the contractual obligations of the railway company and be in line with consumer law. I would say that "advance tickets only" is totally unreasonable. "Passengers with reservations" might be reasonable under some circumstances but had this time of day coming out of Leeds I highly doubt it. At the end of the day, even if the TM does make requests, that's all they are and all they remain. If a customer still chooses to board the train, and has a valid ticket (or is entitled to buy one on board under the circumstances) they are therefore entitled to use the said train service. As for the TM, tough, the customer is there legitimately and there is nothing they can do about it and upon a ticket inspection they should accept the ticket without any comment whatsoever.

 

[Nev20]

I've completed the form, will update when I get a reply. Though I am not expecting much aside from the typical jargon.

 

[gray1404]

Surely it must be illegal to try and extract money from a customer, in this case for a new ticket, when they are travelling with a valid ticket?

If this story is correct and true its a pity there wasn't a forum member (or few) on board who would have been asking further questions.

If you are not happy with their reply and they do not address your complaint or provide reassurances then there is the option to have it looked at by a Manager. After that you can appeal to Transport Focus. Many of us on here are happy to help draft and proof read anything.

 

[Sprinter153]

To be honest, my skeptical opinion is that it's somewhere in the middle. I wouldn't put it past her being confused slightly. However she's not once changed any of the narrative and I've quizzed her a fair few times now.

I will press on with that complaint. Even to just see what VTEC have to say about it.

Would it not make more sense for her to complain? She experienced the issue and her and as such only she can give a first-hand account of what happened. I don't think it's greatly helpful or perhaps even fair to complain when you didn't experience the issue and are reporting it on behalf of what you admit is potentially a 'confused' third party.

I am glad that you have decided to take it up with East Coast. It is just a matter of filling in an online form which, to be honest, takes just as long as your forum posts (if not quicker). It is sometimes best to make a stand to stop this happening to her and others again. I bet this TM is making up further rules of their own and regularly getting away with it.

I'm not at all surprised to see you're doing your usual thing of making enormous sweeping judgements on the character and competence of members of staff based on a one-sided account.
Do you never make a single mistake? Would you like a stranger on an internet forum being judge, jury and executioner based on a one-sided story that doesn't quite add up?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you never make a single mistake?

Saying that an Anytime ticket is not valid at, er, any time, is one heck of a big mistake, if that's indeed what happened.

 

[Nev20]

Would it not make more sense for her to complain? She experienced the issue and her and as such only she can give a first-hand account of what happened. I don't think it's greatly helpful or perhaps even fair to complain when you didn't experience the issue and are reporting it on behalf of what you admit is potentially a 'confused' third party.



I'm not at all surprised to see you're doing your usual thing of making enormous sweeping judgements on the character and competence of members of staff based on a one-sided account.
Do you never make a single mistake? Would you like a stranger on an internet forum being judge, jury and executioner based on a one-sided story that doesn't quite add up?

She doesn't want to complain. Can't be arsed going through the hassle of it, and suffers with anxiety at the best of times. So it's either I do it, or it doesn't get done at all. I don't think it's fair that a young girl was verbally threatened by a bloke who was too incompetent to do his job properly. That's not fair. Not someone else filling a complaint for in on her behalf.

 

[gray1404]

If her condition effects her ability to complain then there would be nothing wrong with you writing on her behalf as her representative. Another, perhaps better option is that you write the complaint out for her in first person as if it is coming from her, but if you do this its vital to just run it past her (what you have written) for her to okay it and give you permission to submit it. It just avoids a situation of them saying they can't deal with you etc...

 

[gray1404]

I also hope that given her anxiety she was not caused too much distress on the day or afterwards thinking and talking about it. It is really important rail travel is accessible for people with conditions and conflict like this (and failure to follow the correct rules) really doesn't help. Of course - and I stress - this is based on what we have been told being a true account of events.

 

[yorkie]

Do you never make a single mistake?

If a holder of an Anytime ticket was told their ticket was not valid, that is a very big 'mistake'. It is hard to believe it was a mistake. Of course, we can only go by what we are told happened. I am sure the company can investigate.

 

[WelshBluebird]

If a holder of an Anytime ticket was told their ticket was not valid, that is a very big 'mistake'. It is hard to believe it was a mistake. Of course, we can only go by what we are told happened. I am sure the company can investigate.

Especially when passengers get penalty fared, fined or even threatened with court action over much smaller mistakes!

 

[island]

The only thing I can see in the Bylaws or Conditions of Travel that allows a company to prevent people using a service if they hold a valid ticket would be Bylaw 12, that is, if the overcrowding were a safety related issue. Though I may have missed something?

While preventing people boarding with this Bylaw seems fair and reasonable, it does seem difficult to insist that people who have already boarded leave the train, outside of an emergency situation; if anything else, can a guard ensure that their instructions are heard? I'm sure we've all missed announcements once on board due to other passengers being loud, a faulty address system, or having headphones on. It also seems a little odd as there are always some unreserved seats on board - I can understand people not being allowed to board once full, but why would passengers who are already on be asked to leave?

Byelaw 24 (2) entitles an authorised person to require a person in violation of any byelaw (including 12) to leave the railway.

It remains to be shown whether byelaw 12 was engaged.