"if you dont have an advance ticket"

[Nev20]

Please bear with me, as the following was from my girlfriend not myself but she was adamant this is what happened...

Yesterday at around 3pm I had a few texts off her as she was on the most recent Leeds to Kings Cross train. Looking at Realtimetrains (RTT) it would have been the 15:05.

Anyway, there was an announcement as they were about to leave that due to the busy nature of the train anyone who did not have an Advance ticket would be asked to leave the train, and those that didn't would have to pay a new fare. The missus ignored this, thinking why is anyone else's fare any more important.

The ticket inspector comes and says that unless she buys a new ticket that she will be kicked off at Wakefield. As it happens, that's where she was getting off and after a bit of arguing was left too it. When she told me this I thought it didn't sound right. She had an off peak return. Being weekend, it was off peak.

So two questions,

1) Is this actual procedure? I've certainly never heard it before.
2) If she had bought a new ticket, what would it have been? An anytime single? What difference would that have made to the fact she was on a busy train?

 

[telstarbox]

How busy was the train?

 

[edwin_m]

Had she reserved a seat? At very busy times it has been known for access to trains to be denied to those not having a booking on that specific train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They can control boarding (including asking people to leave before departure) to limit to those with reservations (or first come first served up to a limit after that), but they absolutely can't charge an additional fare if boarding is allowed and the ticket would otherwise be valid.

There might be a Byelaw offence that could be used if you did not leave when requested, but that would require a prosecution to be carried out or an out of court settlement to be offered which the passenger would have the right to decline and insist it progressed to Court or was withdrawn.

The announcement is normally "if you have an Advance fare that is not for train X then you will be sold a new ticket at full fare" or somesuch.

 

[Nev20]

@telstarbox No idea on exacts, but she had a seat. That wasn't reserved.
@edwin_m No she hasn't, but as stated above the seat she was in wasn't reserved.
@Bletchleyite she was first on the train (helping a blind man get on)
I did say to her she was risking it refusing to move, but I can't blame her really. She had paid her fare. It wasn't as if she was using a train specific ticket herself, it was an open off peak return.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Please bare with me, as the following was from my girlfriend not myself but she was adamant this is what happened...
yesterday at around 3pm I had a few texts off her as she was on the most recent Leeds to Kings Cross train. Looking at RTT it would have been the 3:05.

Anyway, there was an announcement as they were about to leave that due to the busy nature of the train anyone who did not have an advance ticket would be asked to leave the train, and those that didn't would have to pay a new fare. The missus ignored this, thinking why is anyone else's fair any more important. The ticket inspector comes and says that unless she buys a new ticket that she will be kicked off at Wakefield. As it happens, that's where she was getting off and after a bit of arguing was left too it. When she told me this I thought it didn't sound right. She had an off peak return. Being weekend, it was off peak.

So two questions,

1) Is this actual procedure? I've certainly never heard it before.
2) If she had bought a new ticket, what would it have been? An anytime single? What difference would that have made to the fact she was on a busy train?

Struggling to see how any without an "advance ticket" could be asked to pay a new fare as if you are without an advance ticket then unless your a fare dodger you will be holding a valid ticket anytime, off peak etc

 

[Wallsendmag]

Could it possibly have been "Anyone who doesn't have an Advance Ticket for this service"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could it possibly have been "Anyone who doesn't have an Advance Ticket for this service"?

That's the normal announcement you get on almost every train these days. Was there perhaps, shall we say, an attitude test failure?

 

[Nev20]

Could it possibly have been "Anyone who doesn't have an Advance Ticket for this service"?

But as already said, the only issue would have been if she had an advance for another service. She didn't, it was your bog standard walk up on the day off peak ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But as already said, the only issue would have been if she had an advance for another service. She didn't, it was your bog standard walk up on the day off peak ticket.

Is it possible that, as I noted, the conversation went a bit like:

Guard: Tickets please?
OP's GF: I haven't got an Advance for this train but I got on anyway <waves ticket in such a way the guard couldn't actually see what it said on it, as people often do>.
Guard: You'll need to buy a new ticket then
GF: No, I don't see why I should
Guard: Your ticket isn't valid for this train <assumes it was an Advance>, you need to buy a new ticket
GF: No
<Guard gets bored and walks off without even having seen the ticket>

Or even:

Guard: Tickets please?
OP's GF: I haven't got an Advance for this train but I got on anyway <waves ticket in such a way the guard couldn't actually see what it said on it, as people often do>.
Guard: You'll need to buy a new ticket then
GF: No, I don't see why I should
Guard: Your ticket isn't valid for this train <assumes it was an Advance>, you need to buy a new ticket
GF: No <waves it again, this time the guard sees it's a walk-up>
<Guard walks off>

 

[johntea]

I have personally never actually seen a ticket check take place between Leeds and Wakefield on East Coast for the past several years!

 

[Hadders]

Wouldn’t the announcement have more likely to be ‘anyone without a reservation for this train will be unable to travel’, or words to that effect.

Or alternatively an announcement about Advance fares for that specific train only being valid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn’t the announcement have more likely to be ‘anyone without a reservation for this train will be unable to travel’, or words to that effect.

If it was that (it often is the case on the evening of 24th December at the main London terminals), charging a new fare is not a method of enforcement open to the TOC.

Or alternatively an announcement about Advance fares for that specific train only being valid.

That one is more common by far.

 

[cuccir]

There's a lot of speculation on this thread, which is fine, but whatever actually happened, something has gone wrong. At best, the guard seems to have either misunderstood the type of ticket the passenger had (which means they didn't bother to actually check it) or invented his/her own independent penalty fare system by deciding to punish people who didn't follow their instructions, even if those instructions were valid ones.

The only thing I can see in the Bylaws or Conditions of Travel that allows a company to prevent people using a service if they hold a valid ticket would be Bylaw 12, that is, if the overcrowding were a safety related issue. Though I may have missed something?

While preventing people boarding with this Bylaw seems fair and reasonable, it does seem difficult to insist that people who have already boarded leave the train, outside of an emergency situation; if anything else, can a guard ensure that their instructions are heard? I'm sure we've all missed announcements once on board due to other passengers being loud, a faulty address system, or having headphones on. It also seems a little odd as there are always some unreserved seats on board - I can understand people not being allowed to board once full, but why would passengers who are already on be asked to leave?

So it's possible your girlfriend could have been prosecuted for breaking Bylaw 12, if the situation was as you reported. I don't see any reason that a new ticket would have been due even if this is the case. If it was as others have speculated, and the guard thought your girlfriend had an Advance ticket, then it doesn't sound like she/he has done a good job.

If she had she got off and not traveled, I presume that she would have been eligible for delay repay?

 

[gray1404]

This doesn't sound right to me. No guard could possibly say to a passenger with a valid walk up ticket that "anyone without an Advance ticket has to leave the train or they will be charged a new fare." So they get to the passenger without an Advance ticket and charge them a new walk up fare - but the customer already holds a valid walk up fare so they cannot legitimately do that. If the customer has a valid ticket the guard cannot make up their own system.

If this is seriously what happened then the company need to know about it.

 

[Nev20]

Just been with her and asked for a bit more meat on the bones. She has missed the earlier train, and was waiting a good 15/20 minutes for it. She was first on to this train, helping the man on, and sat besides him. In an unreserved seat. She has also said that the whole carriage was unreserved.

As people were boarding, the train manager went onto the tannoy and said that because it was busy anyone without an advance ticket for this train would be required to leave now OR pay a full priced fare for the journey they were making. She's ignored that on basis "I've got a valid ticket, in a valid seat that isn't reserved". She's by no means a seasoned traveller, but she's competent. She gets the difference between off peak and peak!
So she's stood her ground and the ticket inspector has came and asked for her to either leave the train " I'm getting off their anyway" or pay for a new ticket "Mine is valid". In the end she's left alone and goes on her merry way.

Now regarding the bylaw12, she won't have had a clue about that. I'd also wager the TM didn't either. But I'd really love to know what was going through the mind of the TM. You can't even get advance Leeds to Wakefield as far as I'm aware, so any ticket he sold her, would have been another version of what she'd already got! Not to mention she was in an unreserved seat, so how could the train possibly have been full to the point anyone without an advance should leave?

 

[Nev20]

I have personally never actually seen a ticket check take place between Leeds and Wakefield on East Coast for the past several years!

We do that journey regularly and I've only had it twice!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just been with her and asked for a bit more meat on the bones. She has missed the earlier train, and was waiting a good 15/20 minutes for it. She was first on to this train, helping the man on, and sat besides him. In an unreserved seat. She has also said that the whole carriage was unreserved.

As people were boarding, the train manager went onto the tannoy and said that because it was busy anyone without an advance ticket for this train would be required to leave now OR pay a full priced fare for the journey they were making. She's ignored that on basis "I've got a valid ticket, in a valid seat that isn't reserved". She's by no means a seasoned traveller, but she's competent. She gets the difference between off peak and peak!
So she's stood her ground and the ticket inspector has came and asked for her to either leave the train " I'm getting off their anyway" or pay for a new ticket "Mine is valid". In the end she's left alone and goes on her merry way.

Now regarding the bylaw12, she won't have had a clue about that. I'd also wager the TM didn't either. But I'd really love to know what was going through the mind of the TM. You can't even get advance Leeds to Wakefield as far as I'm aware, so any ticket he sold her, would have been another version of what she'd already got! Not to mention she was in an unreserved seat, so how could the train possibly have been full to the point anyone without an advance should leave?

If an Off Peak ticket was valid on that train, she had paid the full price for that train. Guards cannot unilaterally impose Off Peak restrictions. Because they are regulated fares on IC type journeys, the TOC Control odds-on can't do it either.

If the story is indeed as you quote, I would suggest making a formal complaint to the TOC.

Is this one of those cases where Off Peak is not valid from London, but is valid for her intermediate journey, and the guard made a mistake, and the announcement was the conventional "if your Advance isn't one for this train..." ones? This seems plausible.

 

[Nev20]

The train started at Leeds, and would have arrived in London before a Weekday 'peak time' would have commenced, yet alone on a weekend. Once more, you can get an off peak return valid for that journey next week. So essentially, he was wrong. Her wording throughout has also been totally consistent. 'if you don't have an advance ticket' not a 'if you don't have an advance for this train" which of course would be a totally reasonable announcement (albeit it then goes out the window if the ticket is a valid off peak one)

 

[trainophile]

Reading the GF's account, I am convinced that she misunderstood the directive that IF on an Advance ticket, it must be for this train, and then due to her starting to explain that she didn't have an Advance ticket for this train it got lost in translation and the ticket inspector took it that she had an Advance, but for a different service. Just crossed wires I imagine.

 

[cuccir]

Reading the GF's account...

Have you ever had a guard take your word for the ticket type you had, rather than actually look at it? It seems just as unlikely as the story being told to be honest.

In reference to Bylaw 12 - I agree, it's not what was discussed on the train; it's just worth noting that staff can restrict travel legitimately if overcrowding risks safety. It's also plausible that reasons may not be apparent to passengers: eg if a station further down the line were very busy, passengers may be restricted from boarding a train with space on it - I've seen this happen before.

I'm not saying that's what happened here, and even then the guard has done it in a poor way. It's just worth highlighting that if done properly, such a request may have legitimacy

 

[IanXC]

In reference to Bylaw 12 - I agree, it's not what was discussed on the train; it's just worth noting that staff can restrict travel legitimately if overcrowding risks safety. It's also plausible that reasons may not be apparent to passengers: eg if a station further down the line were very busy, passengers may be restricted from boarding a train with space on it - I've seen this happen before.

If this is the risk you're trying to manage I'd suggest you'd do much better to either cancel some station calls, apply pick up only restrictions and/or a false destination so that you're not turning people away as you're actually advertising that the train is not available to their journey.

 

[robbeech]

A few things that cross my mind here.

I came to the conclusion as i read the original post similar to others that the announcement might have been "Advance tickets not for this train are not valid and you'll have to buy a new ticket" Implying that the restriction is only for other advanced tickets. I also assume maybe the ticket inspector did not see the ticket was not an advance. Did your girlfriend say anything initially to the guard or did she just show the ticket? As others have said, one with a standard ticket would be sold the exact same product to enable them to stay on the train? This seems very odd indeed.
It also seems like the guard did a good job of getting through the train that was clearly overcrowded (the reason this whole topic is here) in order to check tickets so early on the journey.

It is perfectly reasonable for staff to stop people boarding when the service is full and standing to prevent overcrowding, it is also reasonable for them to at their discretion allow certain ticket types on such as advances and tickets with a seat reservation. I would argue it is unfair to ask people who have already boarded to leave a service, this shows incompetence on their part for not having staff assist and restrict boarding from the moment the train was eligible to board.


Another important part is the announcement itself. Speech intelligibility on trains is often unacceptable, on board staff that use the PA system often have insufficient training in how to speak and where to speak, couple this with faulty equipment on board and quite often you will not hear announcements in one part of the train, and then will be deafened on the next train. it's something i feel strongly about but the TOC do not see it as a priority. It would be entirely feasible for someone with perfect hearing to miss part of an announcement, or misunderstand it.
I would happily argue that a change to the rules CANNOT be enforced on a service by way of an on board announcement alone. By doing this VTEC would be suggesting that someone who does not understand English or someone who is hard of hearing are to be penalised financially for that.

 

[cuccir]

If this is the risk you're trying to manage I'd suggest you'd do much better to either cancel some station calls, apply pick up only restrictions and/or a false destination so that you're not turning people away as you're actually advertising that the train is not available to their journey.

The specific case where I encountered this was a TransPennineExpress train at Durham, during some disruption - it was due to call at Chester-le-Street, but the subsequent service which was a few minutes later wasn't. So passengers were asked to stop boarding: although I think it was a request relying on the goodwill of people rather than with some spurious threat of having to buy a new ticket!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The specific case where I encountered this was a TransPennineExpress train at Durham, during some disruption - it was due to call at Chester-le-Street, but the subsequent service which was a few minutes later wasn't. So passengers were asked to stop boarding: although I think it was a request relying on the goodwill of people rather than with some spurious threat of having to buy a new ticket!

I heard such a request at New St last week, it was worded as a request. It was anyone for local stations not to board an XC (may have been short formed) as otherwise long distance passengers were going to be left behind, it was sold as a benefit (there's loads of seats on this alternative train) as well. I forget where it was going, might have been Cov/Intl passengers they asked to stay off it.

 

[nanstallon]

I was at Exeter a couple of years ago, holding a day return to Truro and waiting to board a train heading west, when there was a tannoy announcement that the train was crowded and only people with reserved seats could get on it. It came in, and so many people got off that I thought 'stuff it' and got on. There were quite a lot of empty seats, and I had no aggro. As long as you are not fare dodging, why should you be hassled with all sorts of bye-laws and prosecution?

 

[cuccir]

To stay on topic: the point of all of these is that they were requests, it seems unlikely that in any of these cases that anyone would have genuinely been prosecuted. And certainly, in none of these cases were there threats of making travelling passengers buy new tickets, as is alleged in the initial post.

 

[robbeech]

To stay on topic: the point of all of these is that they were requests, it seems unlikely that in any of these cases that anyone would have genuinely been prosecuted. And certainly, in none of these cases were there threats of making travelling passengers buy new tickets, as is alleged in the initial post.

And this is the thing here, what new tickets? If you hold the most valid ticket for the journey with an open return valid on any train then you cannot purchase a more valid one.

 

[sheff1]

Have you ever had a guard take your word for the ticket type you had, rather than actually look at it? It seems just as unlikely as the story being told to be honest.

Yes I have, but not in the sort of circumstances described.

I have also had guards assume I held a type of ticket other than the one I did hold and continue on their way without looking at my ticket.

 

[IanXC]

The specific case where I encountered this was a TransPennineExpress train at Durham, during some disruption - it was due to call at Chester-le-Street, but the subsequent service which was a few minutes later wasn't. So passengers were asked to stop boarding: although I think it was a request relying on the goodwill of people rather than with some spurious threat of having to buy a new ticket!

Ah yes thats a more difficult one, but a false destination of Chester-le-Street at Durham only would have reduced the numbers trying to board by some proportion, probably enough to have the desired effect.