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Why all the violence against the BNP?

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Metroland

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But why do you feel you need to make a big deal about what the BNP are and what they stand for? Surely you realise you are giving them free publicity just like the mainstream politicians do?

Because this is an adult discussion forum, where people get chance to talk about things frankly and openly, things they feel strongly about and things they take an interest in. You know, interesting issues that matter.

Or would you prefer another 'What's on my desktop thread'?
 
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Oswyntail

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I must say, as a newcomer to this forum, that this thread has pleasantly surprised me, with the members' willingness to be open about this topic. Several specialist forums would back away from allowing this.
I would also add that publicity is just what the BNP does need, from everyone. Get them out from under their stones and put them in the full light of public enquiry. That is what scares ALL politicians (which is why the New Labour people made such a fetish of controlling information). At present, the BNP can seem attractive because all that is seen of them is an occasional quote. It is when they have to speak openly for more than a couple of seconds that they will not be able to hide their true colours.
 

Tom B

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I'm not sure why anybody could vote for the BNP as a result of the expenses row. Sure, the Labour, Tory, Libdems etc are all guilty as hell, but why do they think the BNP would be any different if (*gulp*) they had any MPs?
 

Mojo

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According to the BBC he does have a conviction for that dating from 1998 for denying the holocaust. I do remember him being cleared of a later offence though, the nature of which I do not know.
 

gingerheid

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I think most of them haved picked up convictions at some stage in their 'careers'.

The other MEP, Andrew Brons, got his for shouting "Death to Jews" while selling National Front newspapers in Leeds city centre, and for calling the policeman that asked him to stop (a Mr Raj) an inferior being.

And this is why it's alarming that of every 16 people that voted, 1 of them voted BNP. It's not possible that that proportion of the population support the true thoughts of such disgusting criminals, therefore it seems more likely that they didn't realise what they were voting for. They were voting for a bunch of obnoxious liars and criminals who have successfully carried out a rebranding exercise of the scale that if carried out on a town like Pripyat, would make Chernobyl seem like an attractive holiday destination.

This is why it's important people talk about what the BNP and the people behind it really stand for, so they can make informed choices.

I'd recommend the following website for a quick introduction to the party for anyone thinking of voting for them. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/programmes/2001/bnp_special/default.stm

Of course, the main parties have acted disgracefully and have to take a massive share of the blame for the anger, desperation and abandonment felt by the electorate. They have acted appallingly, and it is no wonder people didn't want to vote for any of them. This ought to be a wake up call to them that they need to get their snouts out the trough, get wired back into the real world, and start talking about things that make a difference to people's lives. Like being able to get your rubbish taken away, being able to get a dentist to go to, being able to get places by decent transport, being able feel safe, and being able to feel that the right to be protected from criminals is more important than the rights of criminals.
 

Geezertronic

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Because this is an adult discussion forum, where people get chance to talk about things frankly and openly, things they feel strongly about and things they take an interest in. You know, interesting issues that matter.

Or would you prefer another 'What's on my desktop thread'?

I'll contribute to any thread that takes my interest on this forum so whether you are having a go at EMT drivers or dislike the BNP, it makes no odds to me. Now stop trying to block my point of view by posting petty comments like that then will you :D
 

43106

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A few things

1) Although they are (almost) universally despised, the BNP are a political party functioning (as far as the political process is concerned) within the democratic process by putting up candidates for election. It's a large number of voters who put them into the European parliament, so discussion should really take place with a BNP voter.

2) The BNP has been described as a Fascist organisation. Excuse my ignorance/naivety, but what exactly is Fascism? (I tend to ignore the term Nazi, as that's a corruption/abbreviation/translation of National Socialist, Hitler's political 'party'.)

3) I'm not at all keen on the BNP, but I can understand SOME of the fears of the voter who puts their cross next to the BNP on the ballot sheet. Similarly, I can understand why the political left despise the existance of the BNP, NF, Combat 18, etc. My view is that any opinion should be capable of being freely expressed, irrespective of the 'incitement to racial hatred' law, which should be repealed instantly. I think it was Voltaire, who said "I disagree with your point of view, but I defend your right to say it", or something like that. That kind of attitude should be made a human right, embedded into the constitution of every country of the world.

4) It should also be enshrined in law that a vote cast at any election should be secret. Under the British system, this is not the case. If you voted in the European election, then a number was written on the back of your ballot sheet which can be traced back to you. If you try to remove this number, your vote is classified as a 'spoilt ballot paper' and is withdrawn.
 
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Mojo

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I disagree. I think free speech stops where you start hatred against people who have no choice in who they are, and that includes sexuality, gender, disability and race.
 

me123

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I agree with Mojo. I don't think the BNP should be entitled to free speech, on the grounds that, if elected they'd remove that free speech from a minority because of the colour of their skin.

On Question Time this week (available on iPlayer), one of the panellists asked for a list of offences by BNP figureheads. Apparently it couldn't fit on a sheet of A4 paper and included Inciting Racial Hatred, Assault...
 

Geezertronic

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The only problem with that view is that once you start saying things like that then you are just as bad as the people you oppose. And given the fact that if the BNP were to get anywhere in Government then that opinion could be considered in the minority which seems very unlikely to happen.

In any Democracy, free speech is a requirement not a privilage to be given and taken when the need suits. Removing free speech is akin to a Dictatorship and people must be allowed to make up their own minds given all of the evidence that is presented to them. Removing free speech would remove a persons right to form an opinion and is wrong. Even your valuable opinion would be removed under those circumstances.
 

WillPS

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I disagree. I think free speech stops where you start hatred against people who have no choice in who they are, and that includes sexuality, gender, disability and race.
Exactly where I stand.

There's a dangerous trend of people buying the National's party line - the immigration stuff. People need to learn the cost of that X they put by their name - the national party represent modern evil in this country in my eyes.
 

Tom B

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There must be limits upon free speech - the classic example is to avoid people shouting "FIRE" in the middle of a large theatre.

Mojo's stance is as mine; although it is undoubtedly contentious where we draw the line.
 

me123

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The only problem with that view is that once you start saying things like that then you are just as bad as the people you oppose.

I do appreciate your view. However, like Mojo and Tom, I think there are clear limits on free speech. And I strongly feel that the right to free speech must not be questioned; as the BNP are doing Maybe not publicly, but they would remove freedom of speech from ethnic minorities, and that breaches what I would consider free speech (and would also result in a prosecution for Inciting Racial Hatred).
 

yorkie

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The only problem with that view is that once you start saying things like that then you are just as bad as the people you oppose.
Really? As bad as the view that people should be treated badly just because of the colour of their skin, or where they were born? I don't think anyone can honestly believe that, it's just an excuse. Inciting racial hatred = free speech? I don't think so.
 

andy13

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I am a true BNP supporter and am proud to say it. I think it is wrong the way other cultures can call us any name under the sun and get away with it, yet we look at them wrong and it is classed as racist?... and the thing that annoyed me most was st Georges day got banned last year in ENGLAND???? wot is going on there? we need to close the flood gates and say enough is enough!

I was visiting family in Wolverhampton in January and just walking up the road past some flats and the looks i got because i was white walking through a once british society, these days were forced to pay more respect to immigrants/foreigners than our own british culture and it's got to stop before it gets out of hand.

these are just a few reasons why i will support the BNP all the way!
 

90019

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I think it is wrong the way other cultures can call us any name under the sun and get away with it, yet we look at them wrong and it is classed as racist?
This does annoy me, but not enough to want to vote BNP.


and the thing that annoyed me most was st Georges day got banned last year in ENGLAND????
Proof?


I was visiting family in Wolverhampton in January and just walking up the road past some flats and the looks i got because i was white walking through a once british society, these days were forced to pay more respect to immigrants/foreigners than our own british culture and it's got to stop before it gets out of hand.


Tbh, I'm not up for supporting a party who support the theory that;
[the bell curve theory] has demonstrated to me beyond any reasonable doubt there is a persistent gap in average black and white average intelligence


Or how about this quote from them:
Stuart Russell said:
the black kids are going to grow up dysfunctional, low IQ, low achievers that drain our welfare benefits and the prison system and probably go and mug you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRKk2K3fMk0
Do you agree with this one?


Phil Edwards said:
Rather than inconvenience everybody we should ban all Muslims from flying in and out of Britain
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/oct/05/uk.advertising
Do you think we should ban Muslims from coming onto British soil?


Is this quote something that you think is right?
BNP FAQ said:
We believe that homosexuality is wrong and unhealthy for any community...
...Nevertheless, the flood of homosexual propaganda to 'normalise' this tendency has been both unforeseen and corrupting. Consequently, there will be a ban on the public display and promotion of homosexuality
http://web.archive.org/web/20020203190553/www.bnp.org.uk/faq.html
Or do you think that there is nothing wrong from discriminating against a large amount of the British population by not letting them express themselves in public places and in the British media in the same way those that have been deemed "normal" are allowed to?

Would you be quite happy to vote for a party who would remove many of your freedoms and not allow you to be yourself in public?
I'm guessing you'll say yes because it doesn't apply to you, so you can't see the issue.
But like many others, I don't want a party in power who will take away my right to be myself in public, and who think that the person I am is "wrong and unhealthy".
Yes, I agree that some homosexual people are a bit OTT, but there are many heterosexual people who are the same. Tbh, Gay Pride just makes me cringe most of the time, but it shows the freedom of expression that we currently have, and it will be a very sad day for this country when that right for some people to express themselves in a perfectly acceptable manner in public is taken away.


Woo, 3am rant! :D
 

Geezertronic

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I am yet to meet anyone who agrees 100% with all of the policies advocated by their political party of choice. Anyone who does is either a liar or a politician (if there is a difference :D)
 

Mojo

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I'm not convinced over this "St George's Day banned" story either. A quick Google search reveals two cases; one in Bradford where the police suggested the route be changed for safety reasons in case it was hijacked by the far right; and another in Luton where the event was held in a park over two days instead of a parade because the organisers failed to supply details of the route and timings so the council could arrange necessary road closures and the like.

http://tabloid-watch.blogspot.com/2009/04/st-george-banned-during-two-day-st.html
 

dave_wm

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I am completely against the BNP, and whilst I can see the viewpoint of some people regarding the fact white British people are forced to pay respect to other cultures, but not the other way around, a lot of these stories are kicked up by the media (one newspaper, rhymes with Maily Dail, springs to mind :p).

Most of the 'St George's Day cancelled by EU party poopers who refuse to let greengrocers sell bananas that are too bent' nonsense also comes from the media, see this clip; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_-jx5xTutU

The reality is that there is a difference between immigrants (people who move here of their own accord legally), illegal immigrants (people who move here of their own accord illegally) and asylum seekers (people who move here because they are forced to by another factor, ie. war), and that many of these people are honest and hardworking. People claim that 'illegal immigrants are taking British jobs', technically, they can't because they have come here illegally. Besides, most of the jobs in question are low paid jobs that many people wouldn't want to have (cleaning, for example).

Rant over :P
 

asylumxl

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Whilst I can see the viewpoint of some people regarding the fact white British people are forced to pay respect to other cultures, but not the other way around, a lot of these stories are kicked up by the media (one newspaper, rhymes with Maily Dail, springs to mind :p).

Foreign cultures don't pay respect to "British" culture? I strongly disagree. Most immigrants have happily integrated into British society, and respect the local culture more than the "British" people.

andy13 said:
I am a true BNP supporter and am proud to say it. I think it is wrong the way other cultures can call us any name under the sun and get away with it, yet we look at them wrong and it is classed as racist?... and the thing that annoyed me most was st Georges day got banned last year in ENGLAND???? wot is going on there? we need to close the flood gates and say enough is enough!

The majority of ethnic groups in the UK are getting into 3rd and 4th generations now. How are they any less British? Because they are a different colour?

I hear many "British" people make rude marks about other cultures traditions and celebrations, such as Ramadan (Islam), Diwali (Hinduism) and Hanuka (Judaism). They expect ethnic groups to respect them when they do not give respect? Respect is given where it's due. Silence ignorant tossers like the BNP and National Front, and then ask for respect.

What is British culture anyway? We don't just have English culture. We also have Irish, Scottish and Welsh cultures in Britain, and I doubt they take nicely to be putting under an umbrella term . As far as I'm aware culture changes with time, and ethnic groups have become part of it. It's a rich multicultural society as there is so much to see, do and learn.

If people want a mono-race state, then with all due respect they can go live somewhere other than Britain. They are the minority.
 

dave_wm

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Foreign cultures don't pay respect to "British" culture? I strongly disagree. Most immigrants have happily integrated into British society, and respect the local culture more than the "British" people.

I was referring to the kind of image portrayed in said newspapers, many migrants have integrated fully into British society.

I notice nobody complains about people emigrating - surely this means, for example, in Spain, there are whole areas where British people live, and don't conform completely with Spanish culture.
 
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Metroland

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I've let this topic calm down over a couple of days.

I have total respect for Geezertronic's point of view, which is why I don't think they should be silenced. Actually there is no such thing as free speech, there is reasonably acceptable points of view. Most people think picking on minorities is not a good thing. We really don't want to return to the 'no Irish, no blacks' society of the 1950s.

I maintain that the BNP are actually trying to promote something that is probably not possible or desirable and are looking at things through rose coloured spectacles.

Britain in 1948 was a completely different place, this isn't just down to immigrants. We can 'blame' big box retail, the building of the truck road system, town planning laws, the welfare state, airports, mobile phones, the internet, decline of heavy industry and so on and so forth.

They seem to want to turn the clock back, I say it can't be done, get used to it, that world has gone. There is some great things about the past, but mono culture was not one of them. The whole idea that you can have 2 million Brits living in Spain and we pull the shutters up here, is just bizarre. You can't have your cake and eat it.
 

Tom B

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Besides, most of the jobs in question are low paid jobs that many people wouldn't want to have (cleaning, for example).

To use this as an example, I have this year worked alongside two teams of cleaners in separate organisations. One is mainly British workers - a few old ladies, and a selection of young people off the local council estate. The other is a selection of Eastern European immigrants.

The British cleaners moan like hell. They don't like their job, they think it's stupid, they don't see why they should be doing it, yada yada yada. Many are "only doin it 'coz they'll not give us benefits if we don't". The work is never completed to a satisfactory standard, probably not helped by the time spent chatting, working at snail's pace and texting people, and their favourite phrase is "that's not our job!".

The Eastern Europeans, however, are doing a job which is doubtless often far below their capabilities - they might not like their job, but they don't let it on. They're hard working, polite, and do the job well to a good standard. They're always willing to do things even if they are slightly outside their responsibilities.

Of course, I'm sure there are crap Eastern European ones and good British ones - but the difference is marked.
 

Metroland

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Not entirely sure what they think of British culture anyway, I've just written down a list and it seems quite old fashioned, defined in the period 1825-1968. Most of it is going, and its nothing to do with ethnic minorities:

Pubs - well they are all shutting

Country towns and villages, with lovely churches, country inns, inspiring shops 'the nation of shopkeepers' - They are being decimated by 2nd homes, commuting, out of town shopping and supermarkets

Post offices, they are all closing

Manufacturing, all going

Traditional meals like road beef - well nobody cooks any more, fish and chips superseded by other things.

Music - well being decimated by freebie downloads

The railways are an intrinsic part of are heritage and everyone runs those down.

Tolerance and respect? Give me a break, not much of that left, sadly.

Good manners: Ditto, that's all been going down hill for years. These idiots that go abroad acting like twits and done much to smash the traditional image.

Royalty and Parliament: In disrepute.

Dress sense: Copy cat of US, gone are the hats and other traditional dress.

In fact most things I can think of are in decline, or not that great, or people just don't give a stuff about. So I'm not entirely sure what the BNP is actually trying to preserve, changing social attitudes from the indigenous population and globalisation has destroyed much of it anyway, IE what most outsiders call 'British', its a crying shame but lets be honest its turned into poor man's USA.
 

Metroland

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It's not only the UK that has a 'problem' with creeping Americanization, the biggest private employer in France I believe is now McDonalds.

But this is the result of global capitalism, something the Islamic community is actually against and the British invented!

Global capitalism has been aided and abetted by improvements in transport and communications, starting with shipping and the railways over a century ago.

For example, the low cost airlines have increased people moving to southern Spain, and now has 2 million Brits living there - much to the annoyance of the Spanish. Especially as the Birts tend to live in little 'like-minded' enclaves, and don't give a stuff about Spanish culture.

It's all very well saying 'pull up the draw bridge', but that has to work both ways. Are they organising a boycott of the airlines (or Eurostar for that matter) to stop all this travel that is diluting culture? No, they are picking on, in some cases, the most disadvantaged in society who have moved here, like Brits who have moved abroad, to better their lives.

How can the BNP say with a straight face, we want to stop people coming here, but don't mind British people invading other nations? Which, incidentally they have been doing for centuries, and especially in the last 20 years in terms of moving for jobs and second homes. Indeed, along with the USA, there is no nation on earth that has culturally and economically interfered with other races and countries. Britain probably stands alone in a particular sort of invasive policy to other countries. Look at the empire (which did have positive aspects too), but at the height of this country, which was somewhere around the first world war, we ran more parts of the planet than any other country has done before and since. But the truth is, UK influence has declined ever since, and was certainly overtaken by the USA in the 1950s and 1960s.

The internet and media is another cause of the dilution of culture, how many people now go around saying 'math' and 'vacation', because of the sort of media their consume. How many people wear jeans, when in the 1950s you were considered very poor if you did so, but US rock and roll culture made it fashionable.

So in short, if we were to have a sensible debate, what the BNP want is an end to global neo-liberal capitalism (which actually they do), they want restriction on travel (in effect) and a considerable 're-culturisation', which I really doubt many of its members would accept as it would mean a considerable adjustment to just about everything they do -they certainly need to learn tolerance, respect and manners for a start.

For example, the BNP talk about the destruction of community. Well actually that has more to do with planning (urban planning has moved to sprawl instead of tighter growth, typically seen before the 60s) and again market forces and technology, the way the indigenous people live their lives, driving to diffuse places of work, instead of all walking round the corner to the factory or office or riding on the tram like people used to, socialise in the pub instead of watching TV and especially instead of actually wanting to live their lives separately, or the sort of relationships they have, and screwing what they can out of things (by say the compensation culture) instead of working together through mutuals and friendly societies and so on.

They complain about crime, but one downside of capitalism is it produces losers, and the rich tend to get richer, which causes resentment. This is one of the key drivers, along with lifestyle choices like drugs and excessive alcohol.

There is no person more enthusiastic about the positive aspects of Britishness than me, but if you look at the real issues as a whole, it is much more complex than kicking out a few black people, those sorts of policies only appeal to the ignorant. There might be a case for controlling some of the excessive immigration in some areas, even serious political parties agree with that. I think there is certainly a case for adjusting some of the economic systems to control greed, environmental problems and putting in something that doesn't destroy heritage and tradition, not just here but elsewhere. But having a racist charter is just putting up barriers, when if anything those barriers should be coming down, and is the wrong way to go. The BNP would do far better as the party which celebrates British values, culture and design, but maintaining that tolerance which actually is a hallmark of the country as much as some of the other things.
 
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Demps

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Its a rubbish social country we live in. Our problems are all outlined in BOLD by the BNP, yeah their background maybe far right, but in scenarios where we have a country totaly taken over by foreigners, a economy completely failing, its only a party like BNP who actively recognise the problems, and fight them. The main problem is, you cant support the BNP without being called racist scum.
 
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