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Rolling Stock - masses of stock coming off lease

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squizzler

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Instead of leaving these young fleet of trains to rust in a shed then get scrap, how about selling them to other countries like they did with the MK2 coaches that were shipped to new Zealand a few years ago?

There is a solid chance of a large number of Mark IIIs being regauged and exported to developing countries. Most are in good condition and are simple to maintain. Plenty of countries can't afford new stock and would not use them at high speed or intensively.

New Zealand is unlikely to want more second hand stock but I saw another country in the news with a 3'6" railway network where new stock might be welcome. Zimbabwe desperately needs to rebuild its infrastructure, and it used to have a good railway system. Re-gauging a large number of former British Rail coaches might provide an ideal stopgap solution to jumpstart its railway system again (its heritage as a British possession might even meant the platform heights are compatible). There may be a case for assistance by our government as a form of development aid.
 
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brel york

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The spare 321 toilet cars were robbed of lots of interior parts , the one left at wabtec is completely stripped inside
 

brel york

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The bottom line regarding stock is assett management, the owners will not scrap stock until it has milked every penny out of it , supply and demand , while tocs are willing to lease 35 yo trains then the owners will supply , the real losers are the hundreds of fare paying customers using them , a sight I see every day from my office in Doncaster!
 

matacaster

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On previous occasions when there has been a cull of rolling stock, some has been taken up by the preservation movement.
What classes / numbers might be of interest to preserved railways?
Could K&WVR+WYPTE be interested in some pacers for a long-cherished scheme to offer a peak hours service Oxenhope to / from Keighley?
Would they need to be DDA compliant if on a preserved railway?
 

Wivenswold

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I would be surprised if a few Pacers weren't preserved, love them or loath them they are a part of our railway history and pretty easy to maintain, I hear. A 153 would be a good asset for a preserved railway too. I can see one heading to the Wakes Colne Railway Museum possibly for special events on the Sudbury line.

I would think a 313 will be spared even if it's just a shunter or track maintenance train. I'll be surprised if any 317s survive more likely a 319 but they're going to be about for while yet. Problem is that mass-produced EMUs are rather overlooked when in service, hastily scraped when they're done with and consigned to history thereafter. There was a class 302 that had been refurbished to near original condition that was prime for preservation but the asbestos made it a costly unit to take on. I think it was due to go to York museum but ended up being scrapped. Aside from a few coaches here and there, 40 years of AC EMU history is gone.

The best hope for many types is that one example of a class lingers in service long enough to gain cult status leading to a campaign for it to be saved from the torch, but even then the cost and storage issues could be prohibitive.
 

Domh245

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I would think a 313 will be spared even if it's just a shunter or track maintenance train. I'll be surprised if any 317s survive more likely a 319 but they're going to be about for while yet. Problem is that mass-produced EMUs are rather overlooked when in service, hastily scraped when they're done with and consigned to history thereafter. There was a class 302 that had been refurbished to near original condition that was prime for preservation but the asbestos made it a costly unit to take on. I think it was due to go to York museum but ended up being scrapped. Aside from a few coaches here and there, 40 years of AC EMU history is gone.

Generally speaking, the only futures for EMUs post withdrawal that aren't a one way trip to Rotherham or Kingsbury are either being preserved as museum pieces or being hauled by locomotives - there aren't any electrified preserved lines unsurprisingly. I'm not sure that any modern EMU (ie class 313 and more recent) are particularly well suited to being hauled unlike the Slammers.
 

Class465fan

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Generally speaking, the only futures for EMUs post withdrawal that aren't a one way trip to Rotherham or Kingsbury are either being preserved as museum pieces or being hauled by locomotives - there aren't any electrified preserved lines unsurprisingly. I'm not sure that any modern EMU (ie class 313 and more recent) are particularly well suited to being hauled unlike the Slammers.
You got the 37s that has being equipped with new tightlocks not long ago.
 

3141

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Outcry?
Do people not get that rolling stock is privately owned and that the ROSCOs take the risk of whether they are re-leased or not?

I understand that, but many people probably don’t. If the Daily Mail or something similar chooses to make an issue of it, what’s going to stick in peoples’ minds is that trains that could have run for many more years are standing unused or being scrapped. It looks like waste. I wouldn't like to be a senior railway figure trying to explain it to an audience of people who have to stand every day on the way to work.

This is after 20 years of easy money where practically every vehicle on their books has earned then a nice profit at negligible risk.

“20 years of easy money” doesn’t make it all OK then. We need to take a wider view.

There is no public money at stake. In fact the DfT has been trying to engineer a stock surplus to generate a more competitive market.
​

If the DfT has been trying to engineer a stock surplus this must be their most spectacular success. But for it to lead to a more competitive market, operators must have a real choice about what they lease. Abellio in GA and West Midlands, and First/MTR in South Western have all signed contracts for new trains, and there seems a strong chance that the bidders for South Eastern will do the same. They can’t now take 321s, 323s, 350/2s, 360s, 365s, 379s, 458s, 707s etc.. however much cheaper those may become as a result of the decisions they took not to lease them. And there’s not much point having lots of cheap EMUs in readiness for franchises that can’t use them, like most of those to be awarded in the next five years – Wales and Borders, East Midlands, West Coast, East Coast, Cross Country, Chiltern.

So what will happen to these trains? If 800 carriages go into storage they’ll need at least 10 miles of sidings. If they’re not looked after and regularly taken out for a run they’ll deteriorate. They’ll be several years older and much less attractive the next time Thameslink + Southern, Greater Anglia, West Midlands, etc. come round, and the bidders aren’t going to choose them (if they’re still there and useable) over the large fleets of newer trains that will be only five years old or less. I reckon this more competitive market is an illusion.

Without a rolling stock surplus that can actually be used there’ll be no incentive to the new trains’ ROSCOs to keep leasing costs down, and the probably depreciated pound after Brexit won’t encourage yet more new trains to be introduced. Will all three of the original ROSCOs survive? Lease costs may even go up, as the new trains' owners look ahead to the time when they'll need refurbishments, and the expenditure of public money will be a relevant consideration.

In the case of DMUs things may be different: if a high proportion of those that will become surplus were taken up by other TOCs, a moderate surplus remaining may help to keep leasing costs lower, and diesels have a wider potential usefulness.

It’s also possible that a small number of surplus EMUs will go to supplement existing operations, as Scotrail for example is taking a few 321s (or 75% of them) to provide additional stock. But there are several reasons why most of the stock becoming surplus won’t get re-used in that kind of way.

Is there an outcry when Ryanair dumps 50 nearly-new Boeing 737s out of its fleet and buys 50 brand new ones with lower operating costs?

No, there isn’t an outcry when Ryanair dumps 50 nearly new Boeings, because most people don’t hear anything about it, Ryanair isn’t an essential British public service operation, most people are happy to get cheap fares (not generally thought to be a feature of the British railway system) and don’t care how Ryanair achieves that, there’s a world-wide market for planes (though variable, I agree), the planes are designed to be useable throughout the world unlike UK trains, many of which aren’t useable throughout Britain, and it’s a completely different situation.
 

Wivenswold

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In a world where things make sense, a public outcry about redundant electric units might lead to pressure to electrify more railway lines. So there may be a good outcome to this. Time to take off the rose-tinted glasses and get back to work.
 

3141

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In a world where things make sense, a public outcry about redundant electric units might lead to pressure to electrify more railway lines. So there may be a good outcome to this. Time to take off the rose-tinted glasses and get back to work.

Yes, I thought about that, which if it happened would be a remarkable turn-round by the DfT but they'd have to move fast and include warm maintenance of the surplus trains till new electrified routes were ready, and of course there'd be those living along those routes who'd bleat about only new trains being good enough for them. (I seem to have some rose-tinted glasses here as well!)
 

AndrewE

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Yes, I thought about that, which if it happened would be a remarkable turn-round by the DfT but they'd have to move fast and include warm maintenance of the surplus trains till new electrified routes were ready, and of course there'd be those living along those routes who'd bleat about only new trains being good enough for them. (I seem to have some rose-tinted glasses here as well!)
Given the current sorry (non-)performance on electrification, what chance of the units still being scrapped before any wires were ready?
Re wanting new trains, for most of the country almost any electric train that's not too filthy inside is a step up from most DMUs, especially as there are no 2-cars, and lots are 4-cars!
 

squizzler

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In a world where things make sense, a public outcry about redundant electric units might lead to pressure to electrify more railway lines. So there may be a good outcome to this. Time to take off the rose-tinted glasses and get back to work.

I have quietly pondered whether this might a deliberate policy by the industry to ensure that electrification and other improvements become "too big to fail". All the operators have to do is, metaphorically speaking, send postcards from laid-up class 707's in sidings - "wish you were here" - to the media, along with the narrative the government cancelled electrification, to ensure MP's press the government to recommence electrification.
 

YorkshireBear

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I have quietly pondered whether this might a deliberate policy by the industry to ensure that electrification and other improvements become "too big to fail". All the operators have to do is, metaphorically speaking, send postcards from laid-up class 707's in sidings - "wish you were here" - to the media, along with the narrative the government cancelled electrification, to ensure MP's press the government to recommence electrification.

Once can only hope!
 

3141

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Given the current sorry (non-)performance on electrification, what chance of the units still being scrapped before any wires were ready?
Re wanting new trains, for most of the country almost any electric train that's not too filthy inside is a step up from most DMUs, especially as there are no 2-cars, and lots are 4-cars!

It may be your bad luck to get the 466s!
 

whhistle

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It seems silly but has anyone simply considered that some of these units have reached the end of their life? Anything built 10+ years ago, maybe even just 5+ years is too old to keep when they don't have a home. They may be good units and still have a lot of life left in them, but compared with the latest trains being built, they're just old.

Just because we've lasted with trains that are 40+ years old before, does that reflect the demands of train companies today?

I suspect the next set of (electric) trains to head to the scrap heap will be the 365s. Their diesel counterparts will go before though.

Perhaps the train market has become like the mobile market... anything over a few years old simply is too old to support.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not so much that, as perhaps more similar to the car and bus market, in which a vehicle typically lasts no more than about 10 years then is recycled. (It's not like it's going into landfill).

There are upsides of that approach - it means faster improvements for passengers and more jobs in trainbuilding and metal recycling.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Are the trailer cars of Networkers (365 & 465) electrically compatible with each other and with 466s?
 

43096

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Not so much that, as perhaps more similar to the car and bus market, in which a vehicle typically lasts no more than about 10 years then is recycled. (It's not like it's going into landfill).

There are upsides of that approach - it means faster improvements for passengers and more jobs in trainbuilding and metal recycling.
But keeping trains in service means more jobs in train overhaul and refurbishment businesses, which are more likely to be in the UK than train building jobs. New trains doesn't necessarily mean "better" for passengers - I'll bet there's plenty on the Great Northern who would sooner have their 365s back than have the 387s. Round here, I don't anticipate SWR's new units being more comfortable than the 458s they will replace - quite the opposite I expect.
 

43096

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I didn’t think the york trailer cars were compatible with the met cam stock
Sets can operate in multiple, but as you say you can’t create a hybrid unit from the different builders.

365s are a mix of the two, using BREL York bodyshells and GEC traction equipment.
 

brel york

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Sets can operate in multiple, but as you say you can’t create a hybrid unit from the different builders.

365s are a mix of the two, using BREL York bodyshells and GEC traction equipment.
The door gear is totally different to
 

47802

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But keeping trains in service means more jobs in train overhaul and refurbishment businesses, which are more likely to be in the UK than train building jobs. New trains doesn't necessarily mean "better" for passengers - I'll bet there's plenty on the Great Northern who would sooner have their 365s back than have the 387s. Round here, I don't anticipate SWR's new units being more comfortable than the 458s they will replace - quite the opposite I expect.

If its a better business case for a TOC to operate a new train than an old one then that will be the driving factor, I see no reason why all the BR era stuff which is at least 20+ years old carn't go for scrap if there is no further use for them.
 

squizzler

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Not so much that, as perhaps more similar to the car and bus market, in which a vehicle typically lasts no more than about 10 years then is recycled. (It's not like it's going into landfill).

There are upsides of that approach - it means faster improvements for passengers and more jobs in trainbuilding and metal recycling.

I think the thing that has changed is that, during the past 20 years or so, the rolling stock industry has transitioned from ad-hoc train designs made by domestic industries - or even within railway workshops. Railway operators now have access to designs that are based on ranges of carefully developed platforms from large multinational firms. This seems to have led to a quantum leap in quality, value, and future proofing relative to that which went before. No wonder the operators are replacing older stuff wholesale.

Ironically, whereas the railway industry is reconfiguring itself to what is perceived as successful and competitive like the motorcar and aviation trades, these other businesses are likely to become more insular. For a taste of what is to come, note the impact of Trump's industrial strategy on Bombardier C Series and that of "brexit" on motorcar manufacturing.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think the thing that has changed is that, during the past 20 years or so, the rolling stock industry has transitioned from ad-hoc train designs made by domestic industries - or even within railway workshops. Railway operators now have access to designs that are based on ranges of carefully developed platforms from large multinational firms. This seems to have led to a quantum leap in quality, value, and future proofing relative to that which went before. No wonder the operators are replacing older stuff wholesale.

What's also changed is that air conditioning in cars has gone from expensive optional extra to expectation, and trains have to keep up. It is sometimes feasible to retrofit, but sometimes the power isn't available without very expensive modifications e.g. new engines on a DMU or a higher capacity transformer on an EMU. Chiltern did manage to fit it to the 165s, but I suspect that's a fairly niche thing because they are similar to the 166 which came with (a fairly useless of implementation of) it on build.
 

whhistle

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^ That's good.
I always marvel at the amount of different steam engines that were produced. They seem to have rolled a new design off the production line every few months.
 

Ginaro

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Maybe someone on here will know - are there currently any surplus DMUs like 156/158/170s lying about doing nothing? Read a complaint about Scotrail not having enough carriages, but I assume there can't be many spare trains in the country otherwise they'd be put to use somewhere!
 

PHILIPE

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Maybe someone on here will know - are there currently any surplus DMUs like 156/158/170s lying about doing nothing? Read a complaint about Scotrail not having enough carriages, but I assume there can't be many spare trains in the country otherwise they'd be put to use somewhere!

You might as well ask for the moon than any spare stock. Seriously, there is no spare DMU stock to be had anywhere, trains overcrowded, leaving passengers behind.l
 
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