Rolling Stock - masses of stock coming off lease

[LNW-GW Joint]

...could lead to an outcry about hundreds of coaches being scrapped, ...

Outcry?
Do people not get that rolling stock is privately owned and that the ROSCOs take the risk of whether they are re-leased or not?
This is after 20 years of easy money where practically every vehicle on their books has earned then a nice profit at negligible risk.
There is no public money at stake. In fact the DfT has been trying to engineer a stock surplus to generate a more competitive market.
Is there an outcry when Ryanair dumps 50 nearly-new Boeing 737s out of its fleet and buys 50 brand new ones with lower operating costs?

 

[D365]

No. Where the doors are makes no difference to the seating type you install, and in any case an outersuburban/regional unit (like a 350/1) is a unit with a metro style layout but InterCity style seats, which is exactly what is needed for the Pompey Direct were it available. A 450 with a 350/1 interior layout would actually be perfect. Note what kind of unit Southern use on all their services.

I'm talking about the Class 707, not the 450. Door layout is one thing but the Desiro City is a metro design from the ground up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh, I know, but in the end the train is just a bodyshell with doors, and you could easily fit a 2+2 IC-style interior if you wished.

 

[3141]

Instead of leaving these young fleet of trains to rust in a shed then get scrap, how about selling them to other countries like they did with the MK2 coaches that were shipped to new Zealand a few years ago?

Remember how, less than two years ago, posters from the north were whingeing about not wanting the south east's cast-offs? Maybe there are people in "other countries" who'd whinge about getting Britain's cast-offs. "How about selling them to...." requires somebody who wants to buy them.

 

[Wivenswold]

There's every chance that a few bits of rolling stock will find use somewhere in the world but mostly the trains we know and love will be going to the breaker's yard. Especially the steel-bodies ones. Our efforts should be redirected into making sure some artifacts are preserved.

 

[D365]

To be honest? I'd consider us very, very lucky if we see anything other than a handful of driving coaches preserved. EMUs simply don't mean anything to 90% of the population.

 

[Class 170101]

Aircon would be difficult,

Its not required up north it doesn't get warm there often enough. Just open the window :P

Outcry?
Do people not get that rolling stock is privately owned and that the ROSCOs take the risk of whether they are re-leased or not?
This is after 20 years of easy money where practically every vehicle on their books has earned then a nice profit at negligible risk.
There is no public money at stake. In fact the DfT has been trying to engineer a stock surplus to generate a more competitive market.
Is there an outcry when Ryanair dumps 50 nearly-new Boeing 737s out of its fleet and buys 50 brand new ones with lower operating costs?

The problem here is that people know the DfT meddle (rather than being useful) and that there is a shortage of capacity, as seen with standing room only, on trains. Hence there will be an outcry because people can see it on a daily basis, unlike Ryanair where everyone gets a seat.

If the DfT acted in a useful way allocating stock where capacity was needed then this issue wouldn't raise its head, but unfortunately the DfT is incapable of handling things fairly and instead allocates money to its political friends (Narbeth Tunnel) or where there is a chance of government (eg the DUP in Northern Ireland).

 

[Class 170101]

I live in Northern territory, where the bi-mode 769s are awaited with interest. A battery version would be suitable for Windermere but only if it's refurbished/reseated to Northern Connect standards, also perhaps for Morecambe. Some interesting comments and of course an obvious one is that more electrification would help absorb some of the emus facing redundancy, particularly if the ORR can be persuaded to drop its opposition to more third rail on Southern territory (Ashford- Hastings, Uckfield and Reading - Gatwick).

But even if the ORR does not withdraw its objections why not use the 319s in bi-mode configuration for these routes and release regular DMUs for critical services elsewhere where fuel range would be insufficient?

 

[Chester1]

Remember how, less than two years ago, posters from the north were whingeing about not wanting the south east's cast-offs? Maybe there are people in "other countries" who'd whinge about getting Britain's cast-offs. "How about selling them to...." requires somebody who wants to buy them.

There's every chance that a few bits of rolling stock will find use somewhere in the world but mostly the trains we know and love will be going to the breaker's yard. Especially the steel-bodies ones. Our efforts should be redirected into making sure some artifacts are preserved.

There is a solid chance of a large number of Mark IIIs being regauged and exported to developing countries. Most are in good condition and are simple to maintain. Plenty of countries can't afford new stock and would not use them at high speed or intensively. EMUs will be difficult to preserve unless a group sets up a heritage electric railway which is highly unlikely. Its a shame but apart from keeping a set of driving end at the national railway museum from each class for historical record of their existance, what would be the point of preserving more? Pacers and 153s will also be scrapped but the remaining Mark II coaches will probably be used for rail tours and heritage services. All other DMUs going off lease should go to other franchises and be used until they are life expired unless production of new DMUs starts on a very big scale.

 

[Wivenswold]

I agree that it would be good to export our old stuff to developing countries but the cost of the work to make them suitable and shipping will be prohibitive for many overseas operators, especially if the Pound recovers. The ROSCOs are unlikely to pay for the work so they'll make a commercial decision. A large scrap contract may be the more viable option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The main limiting factors on MUs are our high platforms (most countries are low and require steps which is a big modification) and loading gauge (most countries can take larger trains which provide better comfort).

Locomotives may well sell OK, as it doesn't overly matter what they look like.

 

[43096]

There is a solid chance of a large number of Mark IIIs being regauged and exported to developing countries. Most are in good condition and are simple to maintain. Plenty of countries can't afford new stock and would not use them at high speed or intensively.

I assume you are referring to Mark 3 LHCS? Because if you are it is highly unlikely. It was actively promoted when the stock came off-lease from Virgin and there were no takers. Ten years on and it is hard to see how that has changed.

 

[Chester1]

Thats a shame. Sounds like the only future railway use they will have is if they end up in an arc furnace and are turned into rails! Its a shame we don't limit the height of new stock and platforms to the smallest height that is compatible with existing infrastucture and stock - 760mm? It wouldn't solve width issues but it would be a start.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Oh, I know, but in the end the train is just a bodyshell with doors, and you could easily fit a 2+2 IC-style interior if you wished.

Like first class on a 700 but throughout the whole train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Like first class on a 700 but throughout the whole train?

Yeah, something like that.

 

[Mikey C]

I assume you are referring to Mark 3 LHCS? Because if you are it is highly unlikely. It was actively promoted when the stock came off-lease from Virgin and there were no takers. Ten years on and it is hard to see how that has changed.

Which was a massive stroke of "luck", seeing that more or less all the Mark 3s are now back in service again!

 

[43096]

Which was a massive stroke of "luck", seeing that more or less all the Mark 3s are now back in service again!

Give or take the 70+ vehicles that are stored, scrapped or preserved!

 

[tgrb]

Give or take the 70+ vehicles that are stored, scrapped or preserved!

I was wondering about this and a bit of not particularly good googling hasn't helped.... what happened to the Mk 3 the 390 displaced - there were quite a few from what so can see.. certainly more than 70?

 

[AndrewE]

Remember how, less than two years ago, posters from the north were whingeing about not wanting the south east's cast-offs? Maybe there are people in "other countries" who'd whinge about getting Britain's cast-offs. "How about selling them to...." requires somebody who wants to buy them.

Care to identify any whingers? Most of us are (and have been for quite a while) desperate for more capacity asap, not just when the procurement/franchising pantomime allows it to happen. Cascading solidly-built rolling stock has a respectable heritage and more seats are needed as soon as crew training and availability can be managed.
Class 309s were welcome in the North West (and in Yorkshire, I think) about 20 years ago, the ex south-east 4-car emus starting to appear at Wigan are long overdue... and if any HSTs could be spared we'd like as many as are available to double the NE-SW capacity please.

 

[Marklund]

Give or take the 70+ vehicles that are stored, scrapped or preserved!

That's quite a lot sitting idle or now razor blades - more than I thought!
Is that mainly sleeping cars, catering vehicles, and DVTs in that figure?

 

[43096]

That's quite a lot sitting idle or now razor blades - more than I thought!
Is that mainly sleeping cars, catering vehicles, and DVTs in that figure?

No sleeping cars or DVTs in that figure. Fairly heavy number of catering cars included though.

 

[Marklund]

No sleeping cars or DVTs in that figure. Fairly heavy number of catering cars included though.

Thanks. Makes sense I suppose with the amount of micro-buffet conversions.

 

[43096]

Thanks. Makes sense I suppose with the amount of micro-buffet conversions.

The excess of buffets (and indeed DVTs) was more down to the fact that the Oxley based West Coast "Mark 2" sets had Mark 3 RFMs and DVTs in the sets.

 

[sprinterguy]

I was wondering about this and a bit of not particularly good googling hasn't helped.... what happened to the Mk 3 the 390 displaced - there were quite a few from what so can see.. certainly more than 70?

Some of the numbers below might be slightly out of date:

Mk. 3a RFM: 58 Built/Converted (10200 – 260, with some gaps), 36 mainline registered
ACTIVE: 4 with GWR, 2 with Arriva Trains Wales, 2 in Pretendolino rake(s), 7 converted to RSM for Greater Anglia, 4 converted to power door fitted TFK for Chiltern Railways, 1 in DB Cargo company train, 2 used as instruction coaches with Scotrail at Yoker.

STORED: 12 in store with DB Regio, 1 in store with Porterbrook, 1 in store with West Coast Railways.

Also 1 in preservation with the 125 Group (10206), 1 in preservation at the Mid-Norfolk Railway (10213), 1 in use as holiday accommodation at Hawsker (10218) and 1 at the fire training college at Moreton-in-Marsh (10231) (Grand Total = 40 vehicles).

Mk. 3a FO: 60 Built (11004 – 063), 18 converted to Mk. 3a RFM, 4 converted to TSO, 19 mainline registered as loco hauled stock
ACTIVE: 5 converted to power door fitted TSOs for Chiltern Railways, 3 converted to TSOs for ATW, 3 in Pretendolino rake, 2 with Chiltern Railways, 1 in DB Cargo company train.

STORED: 3 in store with DB Regio, 1 in store with DRS, 1 in store with Porterbrook.

Additionally, 3 have been converted to HST FO vehicles for Crosscountry and 6 into HST FO vehicles for Grand Central (Grand Total = 28 vehicles).

Mk. 3b FO: 38 Built (11064 – 101), 37 mainline registered
ACTIVE: 28 with Greater Anglia, 7 converted to TSOs for ATW.

STORED: 2 in store with DB Regio.

Also 1 in preservation with the 125 Group (11074) (Grand Total = 38 vehicles).

Mk. 3a TSO: 165 Built (12004 – 168), 4 subsequently converted from Mk. 3a FO (12169 – 172), 126 mainline registered as loco hauled stock
ACTIVE: 77 with Greater Anglia, 16 converted to power door fitted TSOs for Chiltern Railways, 6 converted to RSM for Greater Anglia, 5 with Chiltern Railways, 5 in Pretendolino rake, 3 with GWR.

STORED: 9 in store with Porterbrook, 2 in store with DRS, 3 in store with DB Regio.

Additionally, 15 have been converted into HST TSO vehicles for (primarily) Crosscountry and GWR and 9 into HST TSO vehicles for Grand Central. A further 5 have been converted into HST TCK vehicles for Crosscountry.

Also 4 in preservation with the 125 Group (12065/087/092/134) (Grand Total = 159 vehicles).

Mk. 3b BFO: 3 Built (17173 – 175), 3 mainline registered
ACTIVE: 3 with First Great Western.

In addition, 3 Mk. 3a FOs and 5 Mk. 3a TSOs were scrapped as a result of accident damage during the 1980s (Bushey (1980), Polmont (1984) and Colwich (1986), primarily). 12140 also subsequently scrapped following withdrawal from service with Virgin West Coast due to being fitted with non-standard T4 bogies.

 

[Mikey C]

So it's a pretty good retention rate considering the number of Mark 3s withdrawn by VTWC once you exclude the catering vehicles. Chiltern alone are using 31 of them

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the subject of converting 707s again, I was on a 700 earlier and it's remarkable just how big and spacious they are (with the largest overhead racks on the network, too), near vertical sidewalls and the windows are absolutely massive. Put a luggage rack or side facing seat in each standback space and fit proper wide 2+2 with armrests (like the 1st seating in the 700s, or even better Grammer IC3000s) and I'd be more than happy to spend two hours on one. It'd give you something not dissimilar to the 380 which has a very InterCity feel for a suburban EMU.

If they're a bit underpowered, long-distance services may not be an at all bad place for them.

 

[physics34]

On the subject of converting 707s again, I was on a 700 earlier and it's remarkable just how big and spacious they are (with the largest overhead racks on the network, too), near vertical sidewalls and the windows are absolutely massive. Put a luggage rack or side facing seat in each standback space and fit proper wide 2+2 with armrests (like the 1st seating in the 700s, or even better Grammer IC3000s) and I'd be more than happy to spend two hours on one. It'd give you something not dissimilar to the 380 which has a very InterCity feel for a suburban EMU.

If they're a bit underpowered, long-distance services may not be an at all bad place for them.

isnt this "underpowered" thing just the fact that they dont need to have as fast acceleration as the 700s?

 

[tgrb]

Some of the numbers below might be slightly out of date:

Mk. 3a RFM: 58 Built/Converted (10200 – 260, with some gaps), 36 mainline registered
ACTIVE: 4 with GWR, 2 with Arriva Trains Wales, 2 in Pretendolino rake(s), 7 converted to RSM for Greater Anglia, 4 converted to power door fitted TFK for Chiltern Railways, 1 in DB Cargo company train, 2 used as instruction coaches with Scotrail at Yoker.

STORED: 12 in store with DB Regio, 1 in store with Porterbrook, 1 in store with West Coast Railways.

Also 1 in preservation with the 125 Group (10206), 1 in preservation at the Mid-Norfolk Railway (10213), 1 in use as holiday accommodation at Hawsker (10218) and 1 at the fire training college at Moreton-in-Marsh (10231) (Grand Total = 40 vehicles).

Mk. 3a FO: 60 Built (11004 – 063), 18 converted to Mk. 3a RFM, 4 converted to TSO, 19 mainline registered as loco hauled stock
ACTIVE: 5 converted to power door fitted TSOs for Chiltern Railways, 3 converted to TSOs for ATW, 3 in Pretendolino rake, 2 with Chiltern Railways, 1 in DB Cargo company train.

STORED: 3 in store with DB Regio, 1 in store with DRS, 1 in store with Porterbrook.

Additionally, 3 have been converted to HST FO vehicles for Crosscountry and 6 into HST FO vehicles for Grand Central (Grand Total = 28 vehicles).

Mk. 3b FO: 38 Built (11064 – 101), 37 mainline registered
ACTIVE: 28 with Greater Anglia, 7 converted to TSOs for ATW.

STORED: 2 in store with DB Regio.

Also 1 in preservation with the 125 Group (11074) (Grand Total = 38 vehicles).

Mk. 3a TSO: 165 Built (12004 – 168), 4 subsequently converted from Mk. 3a FO (12169 – 172), 126 mainline registered as loco hauled stock
ACTIVE: 77 with Greater Anglia, 16 converted to power door fitted TSOs for Chiltern Railways, 6 converted to RSM for Greater Anglia, 5 with Chiltern Railways, 5 in Pretendolino rake, 3 with GWR.

STORED: 9 in store with Porterbrook, 2 in store with DRS, 3 in store with DB Regio.

Additionally, 15 have been converted into HST TSO vehicles for (primarily) Crosscountry and GWR and 9 into HST TSO vehicles for Grand Central. A further 5 have been converted into HST TCK vehicles for Crosscountry.

Also 4 in preservation with the 125 Group (12065/087/092/134) (Grand Total = 159 vehicles).

Mk. 3b BFO: 3 Built (17173 – 175), 3 mainline registered
ACTIVE: 3 with First Great Western.

In addition, 3 Mk. 3a FOs and 5 Mk. 3a TSOs were scrapped as a result of accident damage during the 1980s (Bushey (1980), Polmont (1984) and Colwich (1986), primarily). 12140 also subsequently scrapped following withdrawal from service with Virgin West Coast due to being fitted with non-standard T4 bogies.

Thanks @sprinterguy for the comprehensive rundown! That's interesting how they've been distributed. I presume they replaced a fleet of something at GA

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Thanks @sprinterguyI presume they replaced a fleet of something at GA

Yes, Mk 2 stock.

 

[sprinterguy]

So it's a pretty good retention rate considering the number of Mark 3s withdrawn by VTWC once you exclude the catering vehicles. Chiltern alone are using 31 of them

Yeah, the majority are still around in some capacity or other. To elaborate further, at the time that withdrawals commenced Virgin West Coast operated the following:

Mk. 3a RFM: 50 (Of which, 15 were with mark 2 rakes) (40 still extant)
Mk. 3a FO: 35 (28 still extant)
Mk. 3b FO: 38 (38 still extant)
Mk. 3a TSO: 164 (159 still extant)
Mk. 3b BFO: 3 (3 still extant)

I presume they replaced a fleet of something at GA

Yep, the class 86 hauled mark 2 push-pull rakes that had operated the Liverpool Street - Norwich route since it was electrified in the latter half of the eighties.