GWR: Portsmouth Harbour - Cardiff Central

[Schweir]

Are there any plans to improve this line? This line is frequently overcrowded, and with the Bath christmas market kicking off, I can see a lot of people getting left stranded at stations. A few improvements that could be made include:

- Longer trains, which is probably more viable than:
- Increasing frequency (e.g 2 per hour)
This perhaps could just be a second service between Southampton and Bristol
- Extending the service to Swansea (a lot of people from Swansea, Neath, Port Talbot & Bridgend change onto this train at Cardiff, and with only a 7 minute connection time, the GWR service to Portsmouth can easily be missed)
- All trains to stop at Severn Tunnel Junction (a well used station whenever I go through it)

 

[PHILIPE]

There will be longer trains late next year as has been splashed all over the Forum, 2 Car + 3 Car Turbo increasing from 3 carriages to 5. Stopping at Severn Tunnel Jcn will only slow them down although some do call there in the Peaks. Extending to Swansea would not be compatible with franchising maps and, finally, where would you get the units from to operate additional services. Sorry I may feel somewhat harsh but realities have to be faced.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It is not great at the moment. Also an exceptionally difficult route to timetable and then operate effectively, given the number of interactions with radial main lines to/from London which will always get priority when trains are running late. If electrification was not running so late there would be 5 car trains running already, but this should hopefully be in place towards next Autumn.

 

[Parallel]

An extra train service would be very tricky due to the complexities of the route, and you also have Weymouth and Frome stoppers between Bristol and Westbury too. That said, the last couple of years they did put on lot of extra trains between Bristol and Westbury/Salisbury/Frome, and made Cardiff trains set down only at Trowbridge and Bradford on Avon.

I’m pretty sure a select few services last year were operated by HSTs on Saturday too - though I can’t remember for sure.

However, GWR can’t even provide their diagrammed number of coaches at the moment, so who knows what will happen. It will probably be to the detriment of the Devon Metro again.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

I’m pretty sure a select few services last year were operated by HSTs on Saturday too - though I can’t remember for sure.

I can confirm that, did the HST last year from Trowbridge to Bath on the Xmas market extra from Westbury.

I agree that 2tph wouldn't really work especially on the Bath - Westbury corridor where the Westbury/Warminster/Weymouth stuff fills in the half hourly, which interwotks with the half hourly HSTs on the Bristol - Bath section too, so wouldn't leave much space especially when delays occur. Plus there are some long signal blocks on the Bath - Westbury section too.

It does get very busy yes, though if I'm doing a long section and theres no seats I can sonetimes find one, say if I'm standing from Trowbridge on a Cardiff service I could get a seat from Bath when a large group of passengers get off.

Because it runs down a variety of corridors, like XC's long distance services, one problem seems to knock the whole thing out, even from the start. I've looked on RTT a few times to see if my Pompey train is running to find it's right time from Cardiff then 4 late at Newport then 7 late at Bristol and up and up the delay goes. A few times I've noticed trains being turned round at Fareham, or turned short at Bristol due to excessively late running.

Only last month I went on the 1822 from Portsmouth travelling to Trowbridge and had a stock swap at Westbury from a 158 to a 150, which made it even more wedged as there were Southampton FC fans onboard from the Newcastle v Southampton match. Lots of moaning but the 150 was on the Cardiff - Portsmouth, so our 158 was turned round to cover the Portsmouth and the 150 to cover the Cardiff leg, I suspect they wanted to avoid the 150 spending the night at Fratton CSD, or the 150 was required at the Marsh on the next day.

With the Turbo's I hope there won't be much of a need for stock swapping

 

[Envoy]

I thought that electrification from Paddington to Didcot was imminent and would thus allow the Electrostars to start operations in the Thames Valley. With the new Intercity Express Trains now also arriving, I would have thought that these would replace the Turbos on the Worcester - Hereford services (to/from PAD) and thus a load of Turbos (165’s 166’s) would be freed up to work the Cardiff to Portsmouth trains as 5 coaches. So, why are we getting suggestions that this now won’t happen until Autumn?

 

[ChathillMan]

I know the vast majority of folk are not travelling from Cardiff to Portsmouth, but i can't think of many things more dispiriting than a 150 for a long distance trip...and i come from Pacerland (thats not a theme park) and done Middlesbrough to Carlisle once.

I did Cardiff to Bristol and Southampton to Portsmouth a few weeks ago and those two occasions were bad enough.

 

[BestWestern]

I thought that electrification from Paddington to Didcot was imminent and would thus allow the Electrostars to start operations in the Thames Valley. With the new Intercity Express Trains now also arriving, I would have thought that these would replace the Turbos on the Worcester - Hereford services (to/from PAD) and thus a load of Turbos (165’s 166’s) would be freed up to work the Cardiff to Portsmouth trains as 5 coaches. So, why are we getting suggestions that this now won’t happen until Autumn?

The most pressing need initially will be to replace the 180s, which are due off-lease at the end of this year. There's an ongoing shortage of HSTs now, with the departures to Scotrail and the 2+4 conversions within GWR, so chances are the Turbos will continue to feature over the Cotswolds for the forseeable.

 

[Lrd]

I know the vast majority of folk are not travelling from Cardiff to Portsmouth, but i can't think of many things more dispiriting than a 150 for a long distance trip...and i come from Pacerland (thats not a theme park) and done Middlesbrough to Carlisle once.

I did Cardiff to Bristol and Southampton to Portsmouth a few weeks ago and those two occasions were bad enough.

Try doing Brighton to Great Malvern on a 150

 

[Clarence Yard]

I thought that electrification from Paddington to Didcot was imminent and would thus allow the Electrostars to start operations in the Thames Valley. With the new Intercity Express Trains now also arriving, I would have thought that these would replace the Turbos on the Worcester - Hereford services (to/from PAD) and thus a load of Turbos (165’s 166’s) would be freed up to work the Cardiff to Portsmouth trains as 5 coaches. So, why are we getting suggestions that this now won’t happen until Autumn?

The Turbos are still required to do the Newbury/Bedwyns and fast Oxfords. When the wires go up to Newbury and the AT300 units appear, then the Cardiff-Portsmouth service will completely cut over to Turbo operation. That is likely to be with effect from the December 2018 Timetable.

You might see one or two workings go Turbo in autumn 2018 to facilitate the reconversion of the 3 car 158 units back to 2 cars but that will depend on the timely completion of the various Turbo mods programmes.

 

[Parallel]

With the Turbo's I hope there won't be much of a need for stock swapping

Other than corridor gangways, the main issue I can see happening (as it does now on GWR and indeed everywhere) is if the 166 develops a fault, a 2-car 165 will have to complete the circuit on its own, 2 car vice 5 car! And if there is a stock shortage, they may just get into the habit of pulling off the 165 to work something else leaving a 3 car unit - Obviously this might not happen, but with double units working, it is the obvious choice for when something goes wrong elsewhere...

Try doing Brighton to Great Malvern on a 150

There have been a few times last week the Great Malvern - Brighton train was a 150 - It’s bad enough when 150/1 units turn up (as booked) on Malvern/Worcester to Westbury services.

 

[ValleyLines142]

There are signs around Temple Meads saying to have the most comfortable journeys between Bristol and Bath passengers are advised to get the London services at 00 and 30 past. I always aim for one of those.

Saying that, the 0916 from Temple Meads this morning (1A10) has just left absolutely rammed to the rafters in every carriage.

 

[Parham Wood]

Bath Christmas market and rugby on as well.City will be rammed as will most trains. Pre-Christmas stuff in London as well I expect.

 

[Schweir]

I know the vast majority of folk are not travelling from Cardiff to Portsmouth, but i can't think of many things more dispiriting than a 150 for a long distance trip...and i come from Pacerland (thats not a theme park) and done Middlesbrough to Carlisle once.

I did Cardiff to Bristol and Southampton to Portsmouth a few weeks ago and those two occasions were bad enough.

I frequently travel from Bristol Parkway to Weymouth on them (just under 3 hours) and believe me my legs have nearly always seized up by the end! The lack of leg room is a real issue on those trains.

 

[Schweir]

There are signs around Temple Meads saying to have the most comfortable journeys between Bristol and Bath passengers are advised to get the London services at 00 and 30 past. I always aim for one of those.

Saying that, the 0916 from Temple Meads this morning (1A10) has just left absolutely rammed to the rafters in every carriage.

I do not understand why people choose to board the Weymouth and even Portsmouth services for those travelling between Bath and Bristol, they are always rammed.

 

[PHILIPE]

I do not understand why people choose to board the Weymouth and even Portsmouth services for those travelling between Bath and Bristol, they are always rammed.

Because they get on the first train that comes even if there may be another a short time behind only half full. Human nature. Bath passengers were being taken off trains at Temple Meads today and catch an HST a short time behind.

 

[HowardGWR]

One would hope that great minds are taking a long look at the hierarchy of Cardiff (Swansea?) to Portsmouth (Brighton?) services. Besides these cities, the others are Bristol, Bath, Salisbury, Southampton.

Bradford on Avon, Trowbridge and Warminster are not - and do not provide connections either*. Thus only Westbury seems a logical stop extra. The route needs an inter-city service with increased speeds and comfort. It hasn't improved in either respect since my wife used to travel from Bristol to Pompey to college in the 60s.
*unless you count Trowbridge (Bradford on Avon to Melksham anyone?).

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks Clarence to my earlier query about the introduction of the Turbos on the Cardiff to Portsmouth route. All very disappointing that it is taking so long - even though these are not ideal trains for what is essentially an Intercity route linking important centres of population. Are all Turbos going to have 2+2 seating?

 

[Dai Corner]

One would hope that great minds are taking a long look at the hierarchy of Cardiff (Swansea?) to Portsmouth (Brighton?) services. Besides these cities, the others are Bristol, Bath, Salisbury, Southampton.

Bradford on Avon, Trowbridge and Warminster are not - and do not provide connections either*. Thus only Westbury seems a logical stop extra. The route needs an inter-city service with increased speeds and comfort. It hasn't improved in either respect since my wife used to travel from Bristol to Pompey to college in the 60s.
*unless you count Trowbridge (Bradford on Avon to Melksham anyone?).

Point of order, Mr Chairman. Newport is a city too

Serving seven cities makes the route more Intercity than any other GWR route (I think)

 

[Clarence Yard]

Many thanks Clarence to my earlier query about the introduction of the Turbos on the Cardiff to Portsmouth route. All very disappointing that it is taking so long - even though these are not ideal trains for what is essentially an Intercity route linking important centres of population. Are all Turbos going to have 2+2 seating?

Well you can blame the lack of wires for the delay. If NR screw up the Newbury electrification it will go back further. The seats in the Turbos are currently going to stay as they are. DfT don’t want any seats lost.

 

[HowardGWR]

Point of order, Mr Chairman. Newport is a city too

Serving seven cities makes the route more Intercity than any other GWR route (I think)

Point taken, my error of omission, of course stop there too.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not mentioned above is the proposed new SWR semi-fast Portsmouth to Southampton Central hourly service from Dec 2018. If nothing else it should help free up some space for through travellers on the GWR service. Hopefully it won't be affected by the current consultation - no-one should be objecting to an extra new service...

Serving seven cities makes the route more Intercity than any other GWR route (I think)

That alone doesn't make any route justify intercity stock or speeds though. It is an inter-regional service by any realistic definition.

 

[Parallel]

One would hope that great minds are taking a long look at the hierarchy of Cardiff (Swansea?) to Portsmouth (Brighton?) services. Besides these cities, the others are Bristol, Bath, Salisbury, Southampton.

Bradford on Avon, Trowbridge and Warminster are not - and do not provide connections either*. Thus only Westbury seems a logical stop extra. The route needs an inter-city service with increased speeds and comfort. It hasn't improved in either respect since my wife used to travel from Bristol to Pompey to college in the 60s.
*unless you count Trowbridge (Bradford on Avon to Melksham anyone?).

It’s not all about interchange though. Trowbridge has about double the amount of entries/exits compared to Westbury and is about to reach a million. I suspect this is heavily under reported too, due to fare evasion. Although, at times, Westbury is a busy interchange, it really doesn’t get that many other services. 1tp2h to Paddington, 1tp2h to Weymouth (but you wouldn't normally change from trains from Bristol). 1tp2h to one of Paignton/Plymouth/Penzance. A few other SWT services to Waterloo or Yeovil. I find it's mainly long distance passengers from Devon and Cornwall that change, which of course, they could do at Bristol too. Many locals from Trowbridge and Westbury I know personally just take a Cardiff service to Bath and then change there for Paddington as there is a half-hourly service over these sections of line!

The route isn't really Intercity IMO. The busiest part of the line is Filton Abbey Wood - Westbury from personal experience, but it is all well used due to the nature of the line. I think an hourly Swindon - Salisbury service would be of more benefit as Westbury - Salisbury is the only part of the line which receives a less than half-hourly service, and the very good value fares would encourage more passengers from Warminster/Westbury/Trowbridge to change at Swindon for Reading and London, which may help capacity on the Cardiff to Portsmouth trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think an hourly Swindon - Salisbury service would be of more benefit as Westbury - Salisbury is the only part of the line which receives a less than half-hourly service...

The Trans-Wilts CRP are trying to build enthusiasm at DfT and TOCs for eventually linking such a service with the SWR Salisbury - Romsey service. All fits quite well AFAICS.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The Trans-Wilts CRP are trying to build enthusiasm at DfT and TOCs for eventually linking such a service with the SWR Salisbury - Romsey service. All fits quite well AFAICS.

This would really need at least a long passing loop in the vicinity of Melksham to operate reliably. The Romney circular isn't known for its timekeeping ability (what circular service is?) and is often the cause of delays to the existing Cardiff-Portsmouth line. You'd be joining this up with another single line at Melksham, itself linked to GWML, which is about to receive a lot more trains than it currently tries to cope with. I can't see a Swindon-Romsey via Southampton working IMHO unless a significant padding factor is added (say 10 min stop at Salisbury or Westbury) which then detracts people from using the service.

 

[PHILIPE]

Well you can blame the lack of wires for the delay. If NR screw up the Newbury electrification it will go back further. The seats in the Turbos are currently going to stay as they are. DfT don’t want any seats lost.

They may as well use the unattractive and unwelcoming 150/1s !!! DFT like counting the seats so that they can then boast xxx number of additional seats have been provided, although passengers are reluctant to use all three seats even preferring to stand.

 

[Parallel]

They may as well use the unattractive and unwelconing 150/1s !!! DFT like counting the seats so that they can then boast xxx number of additional seats have been provided, although passengers are reluctant to use all three seats even preferring to stand.

2+3 seats also means less aisle space to stand when there is an event on, or if the train is short formed. Do they even have tables in the 'standard' 3+2 areas in 166s and 165s?!

GWR has been promising ""new trains"" on this route for the last few years. I can't help but feel regular passengers may be underwhelmed.

 

[ooo]

If first class isn't going to be introduced there are a number of table seats at the ends of class 166s in the former first class area at least

 

[Dougal2345]

Personally I'd like to see this service terminate at Southampton rather than Portsmouth, and an actual electric train take over the rest of the journey...

My general impression is that the service mostly empties out at Southampton, to be filled up again by passengers wanting to get from Southampton to Portsmouth - a process that usually makes the train a couple of minutes later than it often already is.

It would rectify the absurd situation where the 'express' service between two major cities on an electrified railway line is handled by superannuated 2 or 3 car DMUs, often running late due to their long ramble beforehand. And where modern electric stock crawls along stopping at all stations...

 

[BestWestern]

Personally I'd like to see this service terminate at Southampton rather than Portsmouth, and an actual electric train take over the rest of the journey...

My general impression is that the service mostly empties out at Southampton, to be filled up again by passengers wanting to get from Southampton to Portsmouth - a process that usually makes the train a couple of minutes later than it often already is.

It would rectify the absurd situation where the 'express' service between two major cities on an electrified railway line is handled by superannuated 2 or 3 car DMUs, often running late due to their long ramble beforehand. And where modern electric stock crawls along stopping at all stations...

I struggle to see how that would make any sense at all? There is little incentive for SWR to operate a fast service between Portsmouth & So'ton, it works far better as part of an existing express run. There would also be connection issues if the Cardiff arrived late, and the direct service from Bristol and beyond to the various sea links from Portsmouth would be lost. There is also the issue of space to terminate at So'ton, and traincrew logistics.

Just because something is electrified, it doesn't mean that operating over it on diesel should be avoided at all costs. SWR into Waterloo with 159s comes to mind. They could terminate at Basing and turf everyone off, but thankfully it is recognised that doing that would make for a pretty grotty journey experience.