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Virgin Trains Driver Apprenticeship: Think they'll ever do another?

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Up_Tilt_390

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Before commenting I'd say it was wise to have a look at this PDF file before making any judgements, it saves me explaining a great deal.

http://www.tqtraining.co.uk/tq-content/uploads/2017/06/LR-Virgin-Trains.pdf
Three young people in the North West have become the very first apprentice
train drivers at Virgin Trains, after the company, drivers’ union ASLEF and training provider TQ Training launched a brand new, high-quality programme earlier this year.

Simon Tyrer, Sam Jones and Joe Wilson started their 52-week programme in February.
They undertake their on-the-job training from the different Virgin Trains depots where they are based (Preston, Manchester and Liverpool, respectively) and come together in Crewe once a week to work on the NVQ component of the
programme....
The vacancy for this came up in October 2016, though I never heard about it until a few months ago and was very shocked it ever happened. Question I have though is do you think any train company would do this ever again? It says it sets a new benchmark for the industry but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't done again considering that the standard practice of recruitment nowadays seems to work well for the TOCs.

What do you all reckon? Is a TOC likely to ever do this again or do you think it was a one-off? I was surprised when I found out myself personally, so I can't really give my own answer since I'm not exactly well known for my railway knowledge on these forums.
 
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uww11x

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I would love it if they did! Especially if they got Carlisle involved! At the minute there doesn't seem to be a pathway for external candidates to achieve ambitions of being train drivers!
 

Aivilo

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I don't think you will see this with other TOCs as they have trainee courses. Virgin had never done anything like this before to my knowledge so I would suggest that any repeat will be down to the success of that course.
 

Up_Tilt_390

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I don't think you will see this with other TOCs as they have trainee courses. Virgin had never done anything like this before to my knowledge so I would suggest that any repeat will be down to the success of that course.

Anyone wanting one of these apprentices could be waiting up to three years then since that’s how long it will be. It might just be one year though since the one year programme started in February. So saying, might they use this as a new way of getting drivers? Might be cheaper.
 

Aivilo

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I would lean towards fully completing the apprenticeship personally for them to agree to anymore
 

ComUtoR

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So saying, might they use this as a new way of getting drivers? Might be cheaper.

How is it cheaper ? They are adding a year at £15k to the training for what appears to be little benefit. I could swear this program has come up before somewhere.

There is no mention of the OPC tests that are required.
 

Up_Tilt_390

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How is it cheaper ? They are adding a year at £15k to the training for what appears to be little benefit. I could swear this program has come up before somewhere.

There is no mention of the OPC tests that are required.

I didn’t say it would be cheaper, I said it could be. That means I could very well be incorrect...
 

ComUtoR

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They are effectively paying people to be in a talent pool but giving them relevant skills to succeed. Adding £15k in salary alone will be hard to recoup.

My main concern is about the 'guaranteed' entry to the Driver training program. I would certainly like to know the technical details about the course rather than the fluffy media presentation.
 

Aivilo

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What's in the article differs from what was in the advert. There was never any mention off the sellout union aslef.

My source at virgin is also a liar as two position apparently went to ex military
 

stevieoz

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I think this is merely an apprenticeship before the driver training program, a relatively low level apprenticeship which is being offered to all train drivers. A good idea maybe for youngsters. From what I can tell this is a way for companies to reduce their tax bill. This does not go towards the actual train driver licence
 

Up_Tilt_390

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Just a bit of an update. Virgin Trains have put this on their Media Room page of their website

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/abou...st-train-driver-apprenticeship-scheme-2266699
Virgin Trains in partnership with ASLEF today has announced the launch of the rail industry’s first driver apprenticeship scheme. The apprenticeship scheme, which is the first to be launched by a train operating company, will develop the train drivers of the future and the youngest train driver in the UK will come from the scheme.

Over 1,200 applications were received for these positions, with three final candidates selected in February, following a 16-stage recruitment process aimed at identifying the highest calibre potential apprentices.

During a year-long training programme, apprentices will receive training in all aspects of the train driver role plus additional training in functional skills and English, Maths and ICT. They will shadow drivers as well as train managers and station staff so they can gain a full appreciation of how their role fits with others. Apprentices will also benefit from further rotations at Virgin Trains to understand everything from control and command,safety and fleet management, in addition to spending time with other Virgin companies, including Virgin Atlantic.

The first three apprentices comprise of 29-year-old Simon Tyrer from Preston, former branch manager of a phone shop, 24-year-old Samantha Jones from Manchester who spent some time working on-board trains before realising her passion sat behind the wheel and 19-year-old Joe Wilson from Liverpool who, having initially tried his hand at an automotive apprenticeship, decided to follow in his father’s footsteps and become a train driver. Joe will be driving on his 21st birthday, beating his Dad to the punch by four months.

The apprenticeship scheme was co-designed by a former Virgin Trains red track apprentice, Sam Edwards. Inspired by his own experience on the business management apprentice. He wanted to be able to offer more people the opportunity to learn at the same time as getting hands on experience and so worked with the company to develop the new scheme.

Director for Human Resources at Virgin Trains west coast, Patrick McGrath, said: “We are delighted to be launching the first ever train driver apprenticeship scheme alongside ASLEF. At Virgin Trains we believe in giving our staff the tools to innovate and it’s great to see that one of our former apprentices has used his skills to truly shake-up the industry. It’s clear that the appetite for high quality training in the rail industry is still there and we look forward to inviting the next generation of train drivers to come join us at Virgin Trains.”

Kevin Lindsay, District Organiser for Aslef, said: “We welcome this joint initiative and look forward to continuing developing the driver apprenticeship scheme with Virgin West Coast Trains as this is a great opportunity to bring young people into the rail industry and particularly the driving grade.”

Train driver apprentice, Samantha Jones, said: “I’m so happy to have the opportunity to be able to dive straight into this apprenticeship and build on the skills I’ll need as a driver. It’s given me a clear picture of what the role is actually like and everyone has been so supportive along the way.”

It seems that they've put this forward as some sort of new program they'll be doing again in the future, though I can't be sure myself. If it's a year-long course they might do it again sooner or later, but I do not know. Perhaps others can comment on it?
 

TeaTrain

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I applied to this and got to the final stages. I had to do all the same tests for train driver. MMI, SCAAT etc etc. They were taken under OPC. I was told that Virgin keep the train diver results for 1 year and the apprenticeship would take just less than that allowing the trainees to then go straight onto the driver course. No talent pool. Straight on. Its also why I applied for it. They were looking for 'above the national average test results'.

By the very end there were about 20 of us and anyone with a degree was automatically put down the list somewhat. They did say that they would pay for the apprenticeship if they felt it was worth to do it for someone with a degree. But I didn't feel confident after hearing that so simply accepted I had passed all the tests and could now concentrate on applying to other Tocs with the experience I had gained. Anyone who failed wasn't put in a talent pool and told good luck which is fair enough.

To me it was a great experience and while they really did put us through many many stages to get to the end I can only say it was a positive experience. I hope they do do more in the future because I will definitely apply again.
 

ComUtoR

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Great that you had a good experience. Also great that you managed to pass the OPC portion. Some find it hard enough to get through the sift.



Deleted the rest of the post due to an epic reading fail.
 
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tiptoptaff

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I read it that TeaTrain had made it to the final stages of the application but had not been taken on
 

theking

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What is the point of spending a year of your time going through this process rather than just going for a normal trainee driver course.

I understand if you are under 21 so you have to wait anyway but anyone else it's a waste of time unless you really want to drive for virgin.
 

TeaTrain

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Sorry its probably my English if their was a misunderstanding somewhere.

For me it wouldn't be a waste of my time. Exactly as tiptop stated. An in is an in. The 3 who got taken on are guaranteed to become Train Drivers. I waited a year in a talent pool to become a Conductor. I guess its how much your willing to wait and play the patience game. I'm still waiting for a position to pop up and even get the CHANCE to apply for a Trainee Driver position at Man Pic so...
 

ComUtoR

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Sorry its probably my English if their was a misunderstanding somewhere.

The misunderstanding was mine.

The 3 who got taken on are guaranteed to become Train Drivers.

They are guaranteed a place on a course, not guaranteed to become Drivers.

I waited a year in a talent pool to become a Conductor. I guess its how much your willing to wait and play the patience game. I'm still waiting for a position to pop up and even get the CHANCE to apply for a Trainee Driver position at Man Pic so...

It's an interesting approach Virgin has taken. I'm still unsure what the ultimate goal they intend is. I hate talent pools but they allow you to earn a wage in your existing job whilst waiting for an opportunity. Apprentice wage is a huge sacrifice to make and those that make it deserve a lot of credit. This apprenticeship also puts you a year behind, whereas someone else with an OPC pass can be on a course if the TOC has vacancies ready.

3/1200+ is hard to comprehend and I wonder that if this was the way forward how many TOC's could afford such a low employment rate. They would need an amazing amount of forward planning. I'm not sure this is sustainable.
 

tiptoptaff

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3/1200+ is hard to comprehend and I wonder that if this was the way forward how many TOC's could afford such a low employment rate. They would need an amazing amount of forward planning. I'm not sure this is sustainable.

Do VTWC not have a relatively low turnover anyway? I suspect the 3 (1 for each depot they recruited at) was simply to test the water, 3 people for their experiment rather than a raft of them to deal with if it didn't work out. If it turns out to be a success, for both VTWC and the Apprentices, I'd imagine if they ran it again they'd have a larger intake.
 

Dieseldriver

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What is the point of spending a year of your time going through this process rather than just going for a normal trainee driver course.

I understand if you are under 21 so you have to wait anyway but anyone else it's a waste of time unless you really want to drive for virgin.
Because it should result in you being better prepared with better knowledge and appreciation of Train Driving and the railway in general before you are let loose on your own. I applaud schemes like this and see it as a step in the right direction
 

ComUtoR

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Indeed they do. I'm extrapolating forwards. The apprentices will certainly be a more rounded candidate and I appreciate the scheme but this is a direct increase in costs. Is a more rounded candidate worth a years investment for little gain ? Adding a year to a training program is a lot to plan for.

As you stated, an in is an in. this could certainly benefit some.
 

Up_Tilt_390

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I imagine that someone like me would benefit from an apprentice scheme like this one. Having insufficient work experience and wanting to be a train driver all my life, for Virgin as a matter of fact (though I'm not that fussy, I can't afford to be), this wouldn't really be much of an issue with me. Then again, it's still a job, and with my condition I'd struggle to get a normal one, let alone a safety-critical role. Even so, for any person wanting to get into railways at a young age it would be a great opportunity. The question is though, what if you completed this course and then a qualified driver vacancy came up? Would you technically be able to apply?
 

ComUtoR

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The question is though, what if you completed this course and then a qualified driver vacancy came up? Would you technically be able to apply?

All the usual rules apply. If you have an OPC certified pass then you can apply to any TOC you wished. Nothing would stop you from dropping out of the apprenticeship and starting at another TOC
 

tiptoptaff

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You would only be able to apply for a qualified driver job once you had fully completed the driver training. The one year apprenticeship alone would not see you gain Driver status
 

TeaTrain

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Yep that's true, my bad. They certainly have no guarantee of becoming a driver as it will be down to them if they are capable of that.

The apprenticeship is completely different to the driver training so you wouldn't be able to drop it and move to another TOC unless you have another DMI and get through to an accepted driver training course...right?
 

ComUtoR

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The apprenticeship is completely different to the driver training so you wouldn't be able to drop it and move to another TOC unless you have another DMI and get through to an accepted driver training course...right?

As I say, usual rules apply.

Many people on these boards have their passes and multiple applications in. If you were halfway through the apprenticeship and a position come up and you applied and was successful then you could quit the apprenticeship and start on the other TOC course.
 
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