Llanelli - Carmarthen broken rail

[Bovverboy]

Bovverboy said: ↑
The 0644 Llandovery to Swansea (2V04) apparently ran okay, and the 0556 Shrewsbury to Cardiff (2V06) ran okay as far as Swansea. Both those journeys are timed after the passage of the oil train.
The decision to prohibit access to the Heart of Wales line appears to have been taken later.

Problems were still being discovered after the passage of 6B13

I have become aware that the route is double track south of Morlais Junction, so, assuming there was no damage to the crossover at that point, there would have been no impediment to operating either of the above journeys.

 

[Bovverboy]

According to RTT, a full service is going to be in operation tomorrow. However ATW's website says the 0453 Carmarthen-Llandovery and 0642 Llandovery-Swansea are cancelled, reason given broken rail. This may of course be a cancellation notice which should have been deleted, but hasn't been.

No, it seems that the above journeys are indeed cancelled. RTT gives the explanation of 'Planned cancellation by the operator', but ATW's website is still saying 'Broken rail'.

 

[Bovverboy]

Swansea to Pontardulais about 40 mins by coach

Which is comparable to the train journey time. So unless a passenger were to be particularly phobic about travelling by coach, they shouldn't be unduly put off by the coach substitution.
I'm sure that a direct coach to Swansea would be justified, in addition to one to Llanelli. A significant proportion of the passengers coming off the Heart of Wales line presumably travel to Swansea, if that were not the case there wouldn't be much point in having a through train service.

but a safe place to stable would be Pantyffynon - the Signalman (note old term) is there for much of the time and it has been used before for engineering ops.

I was aware of the existence of the signalbox at Pantyffynnon but presumed that it would only be staffed during times of train operation, which I'm sure it will be. Still, it's an option to be considered, keep security in-house and have a night man in the signalbox.

 

[Bovverboy]

Where would a unit come from as it couldn't access the line to start with.

I covered this point in my post #20.

There are units lying around doing nothing at the Northern end any one of which could have come down attached to run such a service.

I don't know what you're getting at here, sorry. The above may be intended as a cynical response to what I said in #20, I don't know. You'll need to elaborate.

As I wasn't involved in the arrangements and neither were you we don't know how the plan was formulated.

No we weren't, and don't, but this is a bit of a sore point for me, since one of my local TOCs doesn't seem to need much of an excuse to stop running trains.

Please say where I said "train crews were a nuisance"

You didn't, you simply said 'Train crews', and left it to the rest of us to work out what you meant.

 

[berneyarms]

The incident only happened two days ago.

Re-organising train crew rosters, sorting out overnight security staff and moving a train from South Wales to Shrewsbury and then south along the HOWL is not going to happen for something that hopefully will be resolved ASAP.

That’s even before deciding whether it would be safe to leave the set overnight on the line.

Of course if the closure was going to be a long term event then I would see some merit in your suggestion.

But I think you need to be a little bit more realistic in your expectations with regard to a short term issue.

 

[Llanigraham]

I was aware of the existence of the signalbox at Pantyffynnon but presumed that it would only be staffed during times of train operation, which I'm sure it will be. Still, it's an option to be considered, keep security in-house and have a night man in the signalbox.

Pedantically, it is not "in house"; signaller works for NR, train belongs to ATW.

 

[QueensCurve]

What are you saying - train crews are a nuisance, and should be done without if at all possible?

That could be a whole new thread.

 

[berneyarms]

The line has now reopened.

 

[snowball]

Press release

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...ilway-reopens-between-swansea-and-carmarthen/

Network Rail and Arriva Trains Wales thank passengers as railway reopens between Swansea and Carmarthen

Network Rail has thanked passengers for their patience following urgent repair work on the line between Swansea and Carmarthen.


The line was closed on Monday 30 October, after a serious fault on a freight train caused multiple track defects and damage to the railway.

Network Rail engineers have been working round the clock to carry out repairs across 50 miles of track to ensure the line is safe to reopen for passengers.

Teams have been out in force since Monday, using ultrasonic testing equipment to to detect flaws in the track and ensure there was no further unseen damage.

Bill Kelly, chief operating officer for Network Rail in Wales and the Borders, said: “The safety of our passengers and workforce is a key priority, and we have worked hard to reopen the line as quickly as possible.

“This is an important transport link, and we have worked closely with our partners at Arriva Trains Wales to keep passengers moving during the closure. I would like to thank people for their patience while we delivered this urgent repair work.”

Lynne Milligan, customer services director for Arriva Trains Wales said: “We are grateful to our customers for their patience whilst we worked with our partners in Network Rail to minimise the impact of the disruption experienced in West Wales this week. Network Rail’s engineers have worked hard to repair the damage to tracks as quickly and as safely as possible.

“We would encourage anyone who may have been affected to get in touch with Arriva Trains Wales so that we can arrange any compensation which they may be entitled to. Customers can visit www.arrivatrains.wales/claim to submit their application.”

 

[Bovverboy]

ATW units don't get fuelled at Swansea. GWR HSTs get fuelled at Landore Depot and neither are there fuelling facilities at Shrewsbury.

Any chance of saying where ATW units do get fuelled? I can think of only three/four likely locations.

 

[Bovverboy]

The incident only happened two days ago.

Re-organising train crew rosters

Crews could have remained on their scheduled duties, but it would have meant twice as much ferrying of crews to/from Pontarddulais as would have been absolutely necessary. All the same, the crews themselves may have preferred the extra ferrying option.

sorting out overnight security staff

Trains were being cancelled from not long after 0800, and at least one proceeded at caution well before that time. To arrange security cover by 2142? I'm sure I could have managed that.
Incidentally, I've decided that overnight security would be appropriate from 2142 to 0637, rather than 0531.

and moving a train from South Wales to Shrewsbury and then south along the HOWL is not going to happen for something that hopefully will be resolved ASAP.

There were several possible alternatives to doing that.
1) The 0556 train from Shrewsbury could have been terminated at Pontarddulais at 0920.
2) I gather that broken rails aren't necessarily terminal and that they can be traversed with due caution. Indeed, two passenger trains were permitted to follow in the track (get it?) of the oil train all the way from Haverfordwest to Llandeilo Junction (except for their diversion into Carmarthen, of course). Track problems were clearly known about, since the former was delayed by 22 minutes between Carmarthen and Llanelli, and the latter by 52 minutes. So the implication is that it may have been possible to return a DMU from Swansea to Pontarddulais.
3) There may have been a spare unit available at Chester or Crewe.

That’s even before deciding whether it would be safe to leave the set overnight on the line.

I obviously wasn't suggesting that it should be left unattended, although that doesn't necessarily mean that it would have been unsafe to do that. How much security is there at, say, Workington Carriage Sidings (with just two DMUs stabled)?

Of course if the closure was going to be a long term event then I would see some merit in your suggestion.

But I think you need to be a little bit more realistic in your expectations with regard to a short term issue.

I acknowledge that, in respect of such a short term problem, there was never any great likelihood that trains would operate beyond Landrindod/Llanwrtyd - but that doesn't mean to say that they couldn't, or shouldn't, have done.

 

[PHILIPE]

Crews could have remained on their scheduled duties, but it would have meant twice as much ferrying of crews to/from Pontarddulais as would have been absolutely necessary. All the same, the crews themselves may have preferred the extra ferrying option.



Trains were being cancelled from not long after 0800, and at least one proceeded at caution well before that time. To arrange security cover by 2142? I'm sure I could have managed that.
Incidentally, I've decided that overnight security would be appropriate from 2142 to 0637, rather than 0531.



There were several possible alternatives to doing that.
1) The 0556 train from Shrewsbury could have been terminated at Pontarddulais at 0920.
2) I gather that broken rails aren't necessarily terminal and that they can be traversed with due caution. Indeed, two passenger trains were permitted to follow in the track (get it?) of the oil train all the way from Haverfordwest to Llandeilo Junction (except for their diversion into Carmarthen, of course). Track problems were clearly known about, since the former was delayed by 22 minutes between Carmarthen and Llanelli, and the latter by 52 minutes. So the implication is that it may have been possible to return a DMU from Swansea to Pontarddulais.
3) There may have been a spare unit available at Chester or Crewe.



I obviously wasn't suggesting that it should be left unattended, although that doesn't necessarily mean that it would have been unsafe to do that. How much security is there at, say, Workington Carriage Sidings (with just two DMUs stabled)?



I acknowledge that, in respect of such a short term problem, there was never any great likelihood that trains would operate beyond Landrindod/Llanwrtyd - but that doesn't mean to say that they couldn't, or shouldn't, have done.

I note that you have said that you don't work in the industry so I respectfully suggest you accept statements from people who either do or have done. Berney Arms has summed it up most admirably.

 

[PHILIPE]

Any chance of saying where ATW units do get fuelled? I can think of only three/four likely locations.

They get fuelled at Canton, Chester (175s only unless by arrangement due to Depot owned by Alstom and exclusuvely for 175s), Crewe, Machynlleth and Holyhead.

 

[craigybagel]

Crews could have remained on their scheduled duties, but it would have meant twice as much ferrying of crews to/from Pontarddulais as would have been absolutely necessary. All the same, the crews themselves may have preferred the extra ferrying option.

The diagrams for traincrew on the Heart of Wales line are very tightly timetabled (as a roundtrip to the crossing point takes so long you're getting close to the limit before a break is required). Any kind of alteration requiring the use of taxis for part of the journey could potentially be very messy.

3) There may have been a spare unit available at Chester or Crewe.

I've been away all week so I'm not sure what the current situation is but since the storms ATW have been struggling to find enough units to run all their services as it is, without finding extra units as well

 

[craigybagel]

I believe Shrewsbury crews only sign the route to Llanwrtyd. If Pontarddulais can be used as a temporary terminus (and why not?) presumably, ATW are unable / can't find a way to / can't be bothered to ferry crews across the gap to Pontarddulais to use that as a temporary terminus.

[PEDANT MODE] Shrewsbury drivers, Shrewsbury AND Crewe guards work the North half of the line - but yes, in both cases only as far as Llanwrtyd [/PEDANT MODE]

 

[Bovverboy]

Bovverboy said: ↑
Crews could have remained on their scheduled duties, but it would have meant twice as much ferrying of crews to/from Pontarddulais as would have been absolutely necessary. All the same, the crews themselves may have preferred the extra ferrying option.

The diagrams for traincrew on the Heart of Wales line are very tightly timetabled (as a roundtrip to the crossing point takes so long you're getting close to the limit before a break is required). Any kind of alteration requiring the use of taxis for part of the journey could potentially be very messy.

Swansea to Llandrindod and return (including waiting time at Llandeilo, Llandovery, Llanwrtyd, and Llandrindod itself) is a scheduled 4h 52m. Swansea to Llanwrtyd and return (again including waiting times) is never more than a scheduled 4h 01m. These times relate to Mondays to Fridays, but I don't imagine weekends will be much different.
Substituting taxi transport over the Swansea to Pontarddulais section should reduce the total duty time, rather than increase it.

 

[craigybagel]

Swansea to Llandrindod and return (including waiting time at Llandeilo, Llandovery, Llanwrtyd, and Llandrindod itself) is a scheduled 4h 52m. Swansea to Llanwrtyd and return (again including waiting times) is never more than a scheduled 4h 01m. These times relate to Mondays to Fridays, but I don't imagine weekends will be much different.
Substituting taxi transport over the Swansea to Pontarddulais section should reduce the total duty time, rather than increase it.

From Swansea, quite possibly. However several of the Heart of Wales turns feature crew changeovers at Llanelli. Making that work within the time scales involved may be more complicated then it seems.

 

[Bovverboy]

However several of the Heart of Wales turns feature crew changeovers at Llanelli. Making that work within the time scales involved may be more complicated then it seems.

Could you tell me which journeys are involved, and the reason for this? This is something I hadn't known or suspected.

 

[berneyarms]

Could you tell me which journeys are involved, and the reason for this? This is something I hadn't known or suspected.

Crewing arrangements are never quite as straightforward as you may think!

 

[Bovverboy]

Bovverboy said: ↑
Could you tell me which journeys are involved, and the reason for this? This is something I hadn't known or suspected.

Crewing arrangements are never quite as straightforward as you may think!

That doesn't answer either of my questions, unless you're suggesting that crewing arrangements are made complicated for the sake of making them so, and for no other reason. Even that would only answer the second of my questions.

 

[berneyarms]

That doesn't answer either of my questions, unless you're suggesting that crewing arrangements are made complicated for the sake of making them so, and for no other reason. Even that would only answer the second of my questions.

I’m making the point that you shouldn’t make assumptions about crewing (and often set) rosters, which you clearly did.

They are often far more complicated than you would appear to think initially.

It’s very easy to say that something would be very easy to do, but without a knowledge of how the rosters are built up, you can’t make that assumption.

 

[Bovverboy]

I’m making the point that you shouldn’t make assumptions about crewing (and often set) rosters, which you clearly did.

They are often far more complicated than you would appear to think initially.

It’s very easy to say that something would be very easy to do, but without a knowledge of how the rosters are built up, you can’t make that assumption.

So you're still not prepared to answer either of my questions. Or do you not know what the answers are?

 

[berneyarms]

So you're still not prepared to answer either of my questions. Or do you not know what the answers are?

I don’t - but unlike you I wasn’t making assumptions and blindly saying that a particular course of action should have been taken.

I suggested that crew rosters might be an issue, based on my knowledge of how there can be far from obvious links that make sudden changes less practical.

 

[PHILIPE]

I respectively suggest to Bovverboy you stop cross examining people who have far more knowledge as to how the industry works than yourself. They may not know each and every detail which is what you are asking for but do possess sufficient knowledge to understand the basics. Perhaps I shouldn't be too severe on you but this thread is now becoming a bore considering the incident happened over a week ago now. I notice that you recently prolonged a thread about the movements of Class 319s to and from Allerton on a Sunday but again you wouldn't accept what some railway men were trying to explain to you.

 

[berneyarms]

I respectively suggest you stop cross examining people who have far more knowledge as to how the industry works than yourself. They may not know each and every detail which is what you are asking for but do possess sufficient knowledge to understand the basics. Perhaps I shouldn't be too severe on you but this thread is now becoming a bore considering the incident happened over a week ago now. I notice that you recently prolonged a thread about the movements of Class 319s to and from Allerton on a Sunday but again you wouldn't accept what some railway men were trying to explain to you.

I think you may be quoting the wrong person in the post above!!

 

[PHILIPE]

I think you may be quoting the wrong person in the post above!!

Ooops. I've now changed my thread to refer to Bovverboy. Sincere apologies

 

[craigybagel]

Could you tell me which journeys are involved, and the reason for this? This is something I hadn't known or suspected.

I'm not going to go into the full details, but two of the four services that cover the full length of the line feature staff changeovers at Llanelli rather then Swansea. Given the staff for that end are based at Carmarthen it's almost certainly the most productive way of doing things under normal circumstances.

Incidentally, of the 4 through services 2 of them also feature crews that after returning to Shrewsbury require a break before working other trains. Those breaks are very tight, so again any delays or changes to those diagrams and you run into major issues.

 

[Bovverboy]

I respectively suggest to Bovverboy you stop cross examining people who have far more knowledge as to how the industry works than yourself. They may not know each and every detail which is what you are asking for but do possess sufficient knowledge to understand the basics. Perhaps I shouldn't be too severe on you but this thread is now becoming a bore considering the incident happened over a week ago now.

You're not obliged to read it.

I notice that you recently prolonged a thread about the movements of Class 319s to and from Allerton on a Sunday but again you wouldn't accept what some railway men were trying to explain to you.

I've worked for bus companies where there would have been nothing short of an upheaval if a bus missed. The current rail scene seems to say that everyone expects to be patted on the back if they manage to run any trains at all.

 

[Bovverboy]

I'm not going to go into the full details, but two of the four services that cover the full length of the line feature staff changeovers at Llanelli rather then Swansea. Given the staff for that end are based at Carmarthen it's almost certainly the most productive way of doing things under normal circumstances.

Contributors may be pleased to be informed that, in this, I made an assumption which proved to be ill-founded. I presumed that ATW would have had a train crew base at Swansea, I didn't check, and could have done. However I don't see the fact of crews travelling to/from Carmarthen as creating any undue complications.

Incidentally, of the 4 through services 2 of them also feature crews that after returning to Shrewsbury require a break before working other trains. Those breaks are very tight, so again any delays or changes to those diagrams and you run into major issues.

I'm not aware that anything I've suggested would impact on Shrewsbury duties.

 

[GB]

I hope RAIB asks the right questions on this - particularly with regard to wagon maintenance and pre departure checks....

Somethings you cannot catch on a pre departure check, failure en route of brake rigging is one of them.