Llanelli - Carmarthen broken rail

[mikemcniven]

Due to six broken rails and three broken foot track crossings between Llanelli and Carmarthen/LLandovery all services are currently cancelled between these places.
Quote from ATW Journey Check

Route(s) affected: Carmarthen - Swansea
Six broken rails have been found and 3 footpath crossings have been damaged.
Due to limited road transport, availability buses will shuttle between Carmarthen and Swansea and vice versa on an approximately 2 hourly basis. However, we are advising against all but essential travel.

 

[PHILIPE]

Following passage of 6B13 Robeston to Westerleigh oil train and which is very heavily loaded, although I don't know the exact tonnage. Now stopped at Bynea on the Swansea District Line and driver reported brake frame on leading wagon had collapsed. Also suspect that excessive wheelslip triggered the problem.

 

[mikemcniven]

Following passage of 6B13 Robeston to Westerleigh oil train and which is very heavily loaded, although I don't know the exact tonnage. Now stopped at Bynea on the Swansea District Line and driver reported brake frame on leading wagon had collapsed. Also suspect that excessive wheelslip triggered the problem.

Blooming heck, that's bad, hope it won't take too long to be repaired

 

[Bovverboy]

According to RTT, the aforementioned oil train has come to a stand between Morlais Junction and Grovesend Colliery Loop Junction, and apparently clear of the Heart of Wales line. There have been several part-cancellations today on the latter, but presumably not a consequence of the rail damage, since other journeys have been completed successfully.

 

[Ploughman]

Is the line concerned, rated for the axleload of that train?

 

[PHILIPE]

Is the line concerned, rated for the axleload of that train?

Don't quite follow but this train has been running almost on a daily basis for many years now without serious incidents

 

[PHILIPE]

According to RTT, the aforementioned oil train has come to a stand between Morlais Junction and Grovesend Colliery Loop Junction, and apparently clear of the Heart of Wales line. There have been several part-cancellations today on the latter, but presumably not a consequence of the rail damage, since other journeys have been completed successfully.

Can't access the Heart of Wales line if it has left track damage in it's wake.

 

[Bovverboy]

Bovverboy said: ↑
According to RTT, the aforementioned oil train has come to a stand between Morlais Junction and Grovesend Colliery Loop Junction, and apparently clear of the Heart of Wales line. There have been several part-cancellations today on the latter, but presumably not a consequence of the rail damage, since other journeys have been completed successfully.

Can't access the Heart of Wales line if it has left track damage in it's wake.

The 0644 Llandovery to Swansea (2V04) apparently ran okay, and the 0556 Shrewsbury to Cardiff (2V06) ran okay as far as Swansea. Both those journeys are timed after the passage of the oil train.
The decision to prohibit access to the Heart of Wales line appears to have been taken later.

 

[PHILIPE]

The 0644 Llandovery to Swansea (2V04) apparently ran okay, and the 0556 Shrewsbury to Cardiff (2V06) ran okay as far as Swansea. Both those journeys are timed after the passage of the oil train.
The decision to prohibit access to the Heart of Wales line appears to have been taken later.

Problems were still being discovered after the passage of 6B13

 

[mikemcniven]

Lines remain closed today. Further details now on Arriva journey check, with the damaged rails at Kidwelly, Llanelli and Bynea. Hopeful to reopen tomorrow
The Swansea District line between Llanelli and Briton Ferry has also been affected and is closed to all trains
H.O.W: Replacement bus Llandridod Wells to Swansea via Llandilo and Llanelli
West Wales: Replacement bus Swansea to Carmarthen, due to road conditions in Llanelli jounrey times extended by over one hour
https://www.journeycheck.com/arrivatrainswales/

Network Rail report that there have been multiple incidents of extensive damaged track and/or train detection equipment between Kidwelly and Llanelli and also in the Bynea area of the route for trains operating Heart of Wales services. This has been caused by the passage of a freight train, after a wagon became damaged during the journey, earlier today.

The Swansea District line between Llanelli and Briton Ferry has also been affected and is closed to all trains. Arriva Trains Wales only have a limited service advertised over this route.

Replacement road transport services are conveying passengers between Swansea and Llandrindod via Llanelli and Llandeilo in both directions until further notice. Please note that buses and minibuses may take up to 60 minutes longer to complete their journeys compared to the advertised train timetable.
Similarly, road vehicles may have limited access to some stations and halts. Information on bus pick-up/drop-off points are advertised in posters on each station's noticeboard. This information can also be found here - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/default.aspx
Replacement road transport services are conveying passengers between Swansea and Carmarthen via Pembrey & Burry Port and Llanelli in both directions until further notice. Road transport vehicles (various local operators) will depart both Swansea and Carmarthen to reflect the hourly train timetable. Additional capacity will be available when needed.
Road vehicles may take up to 60 minutes longer than the advertised train timetable, subject to local road conditions.

 

[daikilo]

Lines remain closed today. Further details now on Arriva journey check, with the damaged rails at Kidwelly, Llanelli and Bynea. Hopeful to reopen tomorrow
The Swansea District line between Llanelli and Briton Ferry has also been affected and is closed to all trains"

Is the issue broken rails or say axle counters/point motor casings etc. I can sort of imagine how a brake unit could be hanging off the side of a wagon but not how it could hit the rail and break it on several occasions.

 

[221129]

Is the issue broken rails or say axle counters/point motor casings etc. I can sort of imagine how a brake unit could be hanging off the side of a wagon but not how it could hit the rail and break it on several occasions.

Both.

 

[Bovverboy]

The Swansea District line between Llanelli and Briton Ferry has also been affected and is closed to all trains

Is the oil train still stuck on the Swansea District line? There's no indication on RTT of it having moved, but there wouldn't necessarily be, of course.

H.O.W: Replacement bus Llandridod Wells to Swansea via Llandilo and Llanelli

Trains are actually operating to wherever they would have normally crossed another train (and where, I believe, the train crews would have swapped over). That means three trains per day are operating to Llanwrtyd, and only one to Llandrindod. So I imagine that the replacement buses are operating from Llanwrtyd or Llandrindod as appropriate.

P.S. Could someone perhaps explain, to a poor non-railwayman like myself, why trains can't run to, say, Pontarddulais?

 

[AndyPJG]

Is the issue broken rails or say axle counters/point motor casings etc. I can sort of imagine how a brake unit could be hanging off the side of a wagon but not how it could hit the rail and break it on several occasions.

Might be severe wheel flats (eg locked brake/damaged axle) causing the broken rails. There was a case a few years ago with a train from Meldon Quarry causing issues on the line up from Exeter SD

 

[313103]

Is the oil train still stuck on the Swansea District line? There's no indication on RTT of it having moved, but there wouldn't necessarily be, of course.

Train was moved last night with the affected wheel set skated at 10mph to Margam.

 

[70014IronDuke]

.....
Trains are actually operating to wherever they would have normally crossed another train (and where, I believe, the train crews would have swapped over). That means three trains per day are operating to Llanwrtyd, and only one to Llandrindod. So I imagine that the replacement buses are operating from Llanwrtyd or Llandrindod as appropriate.

P.S. Could someone perhaps explain, to a poor non-railwayman like myself, why trains can't run to, say, Pontarddulais?

I believe Shrewsbury crews only sign the route to Llanwrtyd. If Pontarddulais can be used as a temporary terminus (and why not?) presumably, ATW are unable / can't find a way to / can't be bothered to ferry crews across the gap to Pontarddulais to use that as a temporary terminus. But it must be difficult, because the crews can't work up to Llandrindod/Llanwrtyd unless there is stock from the southern end to work up! And the stock can't get there because ..... [Think of the song: "There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza..."
There may be other issues - possibly fuel. It may be that the units are so diagrammed that they can't make it back to Shrewsbury or Crewe unless fueled at Swansea?

 

[PHILIPE]

Is the oil train still stuck on the Swansea District line? There's no indication on RTT of it having moved, but there wouldn't necessarily be, of course.



Trains are actually operating to wherever they would have normally crossed another train (and where, I believe, the train crews would have swapped over). That means three trains per day are operating to Llanwrtyd, and only one to Llandrindod. So I imagine that the replacement buses are operating from Llanwrtyd or Llandrindod as appropriate.

P.S. Could someone perhaps explain, to a poor non-railwayman like myself, why trains can't run to, say, Pontarddulais?

Buses run southwards to the crossing point, i.e. Llandrindod Wells/Llanwrtyd where the traincrews from each end change over. This should answer why they cab't run to Pontardulais

 

[83G/84D]

As I understand it there were a total of nine broken rails, some other damaged rails along with numerous other damaged items.

 

[PHILIPE]

I believe Shrewsbury crews only sign the route to Llanwrtyd. If Pontarddulais can be used as a temporary terminus (and why not?) presumably, ATW are unable / can't find a way to / can't be bothered to ferry crews across the gap to Pontarddulais to use that as a temporary terminus. But it must be difficult, because the crews can't work up to Llandrindod/Llanwrtyd unless there is stock from the southern end to work up! And the stock can't get there because ..... [Think of the song: "There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza..."
There may be other issues - possibly fuel. It may be that the units are so diagrammed that they can't make it back to Shrewsbury or Crewe unless fueled at Swansea?

ATW units don't get fuelled at Swansea. GWR HSTs get fuelled at Landore Depot and neither are there fuelling facilities at Shrewsbury.

 

[Bovverboy]

I believe Shrewsbury crews only sign the route to Llanwrtyd. If Pontarddulais can be used as a temporary terminus (and why not?) presumably, ATW are unable / can't find a way to / can't be bothered to ferry crews across the gap to Pontarddulais to use that as a temporary terminus. But it must be difficult, because the crews can't work up to Llandrindod/Llanwrtyd unless there is stock from the southern end to work up! And the stock can't get there because ..... [Think of the song: "There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza..."

You're quite correct, there would, from the outset, be a shortage of a DMU unit at the southern end of the route. That's because, at the point in time that access to the Heart of Wales line was prohibited, the 0556 Shrewsbury to Cardiff train had passed, but the 0933 Swansea to Shrewsbury train had not. However the antidote to that situation would be to simply attach a second unit to a southbound train (at Shrewsbury, or Crewe) then, at the changeover point, allow one unit to continue south, and the other to return north. A means would need to be found for getting a crew from South Wales to the changeover point, though.
One thing which would need to be considered would be security. I don't know how safe a train would be, stabled at Pontarddulais, but it would only be there from 2142 to 0531, that's just an eight-hour shift for a security guard.

There may be other issues - possibly fuel. It may be that the units are so diagrammed that they can't make it back to Shrewsbury or Crewe unless fueled at Swansea?

I doubt that fuel would be an issue, DMUs can usually go for several days without being refuelled.

 

[Bovverboy]

Buses run southwards to the crossing point, i.e. Llandrindod Wells/Llanwrtyd where the traincrews from each end change over.

Buses run southwards from where to the crossing point?

This should answer why they cab't run to Pontardulais

For me, it doesn't, actually. I can't make any sense at all, of your latest post, sorry.

 

[PHILIPE]

You're quite correct, there would, from the outset, be a shortage of a DMU unit at the southern end of the route. That's because, at the point in time that access to the Heart of Wales line was prohibited, the 0556 Shrewsbury to Cardiff train had passed, but the 0933 Swansea to Shrewsbury train had not. However the antidote to that situation would be to simply attach a second unit to a southbound train (at Shrewsbury, or Crewe) then, at the changeover point, allow one unit to continue south, and the other to return north. A means would need to be found for getting a crew from South Wales to the changeover point, though.
One thing which would need to be considered would be security. I don't know how safe a train would be, stabled at Pontarddulais, but it would only be there from 2142 to 0531, that's just an eight-hour shift for a security guard.



I doubt that fuel would be an issue, DMUs can usually go for several days without being refuelled.

Usually 2 days before fuelling or sometimes 3 depending on mileages. Could be longer if low mileage diagrams.

 

[PHILIPE]

Buses run southwards from where to the crossing point?



For me, it doesn't, actually. I can't make any sense at all, of your latest post, sorry.

Train crews. Hardly worth it anyway if trains can't the whole way. I have had experience in this sort of thing before retirement.

 

[Bovverboy]

According to RTT, a full service is going to be in operation tomorrow. However ATW's website says the 0453 Carmarthen-Llandovery and 0642 Llandovery-Swansea are cancelled, reason given broken rail. This may of course be a cancellation notice which should have been deleted, but hasn't been.

 

[Bovverboy]

BOVVERBOY said:
↑
Buses run southwards from where to the crossing point?



For me, it doesn't, actually. I can't make any sense at all, of your latest post, sorry.

Train crews.

What are you saying - train crews are a nuisance, and should be done without if at all possible?

Hardly worth it anyway if trains can't the whole way. I have had experience in this sort of thing before retirement.

I'm afraid I take the view that, once you've declared that such-and-such a train is going to run at such-and-such a time, on such-and-such a date, then you should make every effort to see that it does. I'm critical of a few TOCs on this point.

As to whether or not something is 'worth it', I see Pontarddulais to/from Llanelli/Swansea as quite bearable by bus/coach replacement, meaning a bus/coach over that part of a journey wouldn't put me off travelling anything like as much as having to endure a coach all the way from Llandrindod or Llanwrtyd might.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Swansea to Pontardulais about 40 mins by coach , but a safe place to stable would be Pantyffynon - the Signalman (note old term) is there for much of the time and it has been used before for engineering ops.

Quite how a defective wagon shuts down the railway from Swansea to all of West Wales is worth checking - let alone the actions of several signal boxes along the way who ought to have observed something amiss on route. Mind you there might not have been anything to observe at say Ferryside.

Is there not a wheelchex detector on the route , maybe time to install one.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Swansea to Pontardulais about 40 mins by coach , but a safe place to stable would be Pantyffynon - the Signalman (note old term) is there for much of the time and it has been used before for engineering ops.

Quite how a defective wagon shuts down the railway from Swansea to all of West Wales is worth checking - let alone the actions of several signal boxes along the way who ought to have observed something amiss on route. Mind you there might not have been anything to observe at say Ferryside.

Is there not a wheelchex detector on the route , maybe time to install one.

Can't do that it'll cost too much and besides it's much too sensible and easy!

 

[Bovverboy]

Sorry, double post.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Can't do that it'll cost too much and besides it's much too sensible and easy!

The cancellations / delay mins etc - let alone the loss of goodwill would make even the lovely Leanne ("we must have Carmarthen - Aberystwyth re-opened") , urge the WG to urge NR - who will probably do it anyway....

I hope RAIB asks the right questions on this - particularly with regard to wagon maintenance and pre departure checks....

 

[PHILIPE]

What are you saying - train crews are a nuisance, and should be done without if at all possible?



I'm afraid I take the view that, once you've declared that such-and-such a train is going to run at such-and-such a time, on such-and-such a date, then you should make every effort to see that it does. I'm critical of a few TOCs on this point.

As to whether or not something is 'worth it', I see Pontarddulais to/from Llanelli/Swansea as quite bearable by bus/coach replacement, meaning a bus/coach over that part of a journey wouldn't put me off travelling anything like as much as having to endure a coach all the way from Llandrindod or Llanwrtyd might.

Where would a unit come from as it couldn't access the line to start with. There are units lying around doing nothing at the Northern end any one of which could have come down attached to run such a service. As I wasn't involved in the arrangements and neither were you we don't know how the plan was formulated. Please say where I said "train crews were a nuisance"