Idea: Class 360s to Cross Country: Could it work?

[6Gman]

With all the modern EMUs coming on stream this does seem to make sense paths through new street given, give it to LNW franchise and run as 8 car from Manchester Airport to Birmingham airport via Piccadilly and International. The wm fleet could even retain some of the 350/2 fleet albeit refurbished to 2x2 for this work.
Proof house junction could be the main problem though for this though due to lack of paths.

Can't see any justification for an 8-car out of Manchester Airport to the south. The hourly 323 is scarcely busy; when there was a second hourly service it couldn't fill a 153!

 

[43096]

Even if "commuter-style" is the wrong turn of phrase, it's at best a "regional express" service, not long-distance Intercity.

The whole XC service is at best a Regional Express operation. It's just a jumped-up Sprinter railway nowadays - certainly not anything like an InterCity operation.

The idea of using 360s - actually 350s would be better if they were used as pairs - for these services is actually one of the better ideas we've had on here.

 

[sd0733]

Can't see any justification for an 8-car out of Manchester Airport to the south. The hourly 323 is scarcely busy; when there was a second hourly service it couldn't fill a 153!

True, from the airport it would be pretty quiet but further south towards Stoke etc the xc services especially as 4 car get very busy.

 

[The Planner]

With all the modern EMUs coming on stream this does seem to make sense paths through new street given, give it to LNW franchise and run as 8 car from Manchester Airport to Birmingham airport via Piccadilly and International. The wm fleet could even retain some of the 350/2 fleet albeit refurbished to 2x2 for this work.
Proof house junction could be the main problem though for this though due to lack of paths.

The second XC via Coventry will always come first before anything extra to International.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The whole XC service is at best a Regional Express operation. It's just a jumped-up Sprinter railway nowadays - certainly not anything like an InterCity operation.

The idea of using 360s - actually 350s would be better if they were used as pairs - for these services is actually one of the better ideas we've had on here.

The 350/2 is going off lease. Convert them to a /1 maybe. And it is strange a Manc-Brum service doesn't exsist might I add.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it was still Virgin I bet your opinion would be rather different...

Because it wouldn't be half as bad if it was. CrossCountry is utterly dire, typical of lackadaisical Arriva. And that has nothing to do with the rolling stock itself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 350/2 is going off lease. Convert them to a /1 maybe. And it is strange a Manc-Brum service doesn't exsist might I add.

It used to, it was lost at least in part because the 309s NWRR used to use were Mk1 underframed stock with non-locking slamdoors and so had to go.

 

[Ash Bridge]

The 350/2 is going off lease. Convert them to a /1 maybe. And it is strange a Manc-Brum service doesn't exsist might I add.

It used to, it was lost at least in part because the 309s NWRR used to use were Mk1 underframed stock with non-locking slamdoors and so had to go.

And well before the 309s BR for many years operated a regular semi-fast Manchester Picc - Birmingham New St. via Macc/Stoke service using mainly class 310s.

 

[Kettledrum]

To the extent that XC provides a good service on anything (it really is a dire TOC) it doesn't presently neglect Manc to Brum any more than it neglects anything else - not sure why you think it would if it used EMUs to run it.

As the number 1 problem on XC services is acute overcrowding, any idea to use additional stock to boost capacity has to be a good idea. Many passengers have completely run out of patience as the operator because of their constant refusal to do anything about it in the name of minimising track access and train leasing charges. Even to the extent of keeping their HST fleet idle in sidings while passengers were squashed into single short formed voyagers like sardines. They could get away with this because of a poorly drawn up franchise contract. This time, DfT need to be on the ball, and require much more capacity to be supplied, and using spare EMUs on the Birmingham to Manchester section and doubling up voyagers seems an excellent idea. Track access charges and leasing costs should not be a barrier. Platform capacity at Birmingham New street could be though.

 

[Prestige15]

Couldn't Birmingham have a turn back facility outside the station, Similar to what Arriva Trains Wales does in Manchester Piccadilly from Llandudno, that could lead terminate trains on the sidings rather than in the station?

 

[BantamMenace]

The following amendments seem to make sense and add capacity.

-South Coast to Manchester cut back to Wolverhampton or Stafford to avoid terminating at New Street
-New hourly service from Manchester to Coventry (possibly to Rugby or Northampton) using 6 or 8 car EMUs with a first class offering. This service would call at Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke, Stone, Penkridge (subject to housing development), Wolverhampton, New Street, International and Coventry.

This would use an extra path through New Street but would offer the option for South Coast to Manchester passengers to change at Coventry, International or Wolverhampton so the widely criticised interchange at New Street can be avoided.

Post HS2 Manchester to Birmingham will become regional in nature, at that point a second hourly service could be introduced via Crewe.

Also subject to resurrection of the Electric Spine I'd extend the new EMU service beyond Coventry to Leamington or even Oxford, at which point it would probably then be a complete replacement of the current Manchester to South Coast service.

 

[Kettledrum]

Also subject to resurrection of the Electric Spine I'd extend the new EMU service beyond Coventry to Leamington or even Oxford, at which point it would probably then be a complete replacement of the current Manchester to South Coast service.

Unfortunately I can't see the Electric Spine ever happening now. When the XC franchise is relet, I can see bi-modes being seriously considered, so I suspect any use of the 360's (if any) would be short term and wouldn't go any further South than Coventry

 

[BantamMenace]

Unfortunately I can't see the Electric Spine ever happening now. When the XC franchise is relet, I can see bi-modes being seriously considered, so I suspect any use of the 360's (if any) would be short term and wouldn't go any further South than Coventry

I agree it won't reappear under the same guise but eventually the Snow Hill Lines will be electrified as far as Leamington and the Chiltern Mainline electrified from Leamington to Marylebone. This would then make Oxford to Aynho Junction a no brainer and Coventry to Leamington a sensible and relatively easy infill. I can see most of this being funded if not complete by 2020.

 

[swt_passenger]

In the 'What would you like to see in the next Great Western franchise' thread a link to a document which contains a potential post-HS2 service pattern has been posted. It seems to suggest replacing:

• 1tph Bournemouth to Manchester via Oxford, Coventry and Birmingham New Street
• 1tph Paddington to Oxford

With:

• 1tph Bournemouth to Manchester via Oxford and Milton Keynes
• 1tph Paddington to Birmingham New Street via Reading, Leamington Spa and Coventry
• 1tph Birmingham International to Manchester via Birmingham New Street

That all seems fair enough - but only in the context of the post HS2 timetable, where many journey options across the entire midlands area will be altered. But I didn't think the OP was looking that far ahead, he was looking for a home for 360s next year or so...

 

[The Planner]

The following amendments seem to make sense and add capacity.

-South Coast to Manchester cut back to Wolverhampton or Stafford to avoid terminating at New Street
-New hourly service from Manchester to Coventry (possibly to Rugby or Northampton) using 6 or 8 car EMUs with a first class offering. This service would call at Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke, Stone, Penkridge (subject to housing development), Wolverhampton, New Street, International and Coventry.

This would use an extra path through New Street but would offer the option for South Coast to Manchester passengers to change at Coventry, International or Wolverhampton so the widely criticised interchange at New Street can be avoided.

So you are splitting an existing service in two to basically make XC a local service between Coventry and Wolves plus making anyone south of Coventry change?? Why?

I agree it won't reappear under the same guise but eventually the Snow Hill Lines will be electrified as far as Leamington and the Chiltern Mainline electrified from Leamington to Marylebone. This would then make Oxford to Aynho Junction a no brainer and Coventry to Leamington a sensible and relatively easy infill. I can see most of this being funded if not complete by 2020.

Surely a typo, that won't happen before 2030.

 

[JamesRowden]

That all seems fair enough - but only in the context of the post HS2 timetable, where many journey options across the entire midlands area will be altered. But I didn't think the OP was looking that far ahead, he was looking for a home for 360s next year or so...

Agreed

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you are splitting an existing service in two to basically make XC a local service between Coventry and Wolves plus making anyone south of Coventry change?? Why?

So you can release Voyagers to strengthen other services by using EMUs on a fully electric service.

 

[The Planner]

Won't happen.

 

[BantamMenace]

So you are splitting an existing service in two to basically make XC a local service between Coventry and Wolves plus making anyone south of Coventry change?? Why?

@Bletchleyite has already answered this. You make use of available EMU stock to run 8 car better quality services in the place of the existing 4 or 5 car Voyager. Thus releasing those Voyagers to strengthen the service elsewhere.

Surely a typo, that won't happen before 2030.

Yes, my apologies, 2030 is what I meant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

@Bletchleyite has already answered this. You make use of available EMU stock to run 8 car better quality services in the place of the existing 4 or 5 car Voyager. Thus releasing those Voyagers to strengthen the service elsewhere.

Precisely. People don't like to change, but they like having to stand for a long journey even less.

"Doors at thirds" do not a local service make. A Class 350 with good quality seating (Grammers or similar) fully aligned to the windows would give 56 seats in end coaches and 64 in non-bog non-wheelchair intermediates (or slightly fewer with some floor level luggage racks) and would be a very nice thing indeed. Kind of like the Class 185 or Southern Electrostar layout. Even the 350/1(/3 or /4) layout as built isn't *bad* though the airline seated side of the centre sections needs a row taking out as the pitch is a *bit* tight there.

 

[takno]

This would use an extra path through New Street but would offer the option for South Coast to Manchester passengers to change at Coventry, International or Wolverhampton so the widely criticised interchange at New Street can be avoided.

Offering the "opportunity" to change at Wolverhampton instead is certainly one way to make people feel better about changing at New Street. Minimal facilities and nothing nearby, not much in the way of platform space, and a long hike to the bridge meaning that connection times aren't really much quicker.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It used to, it was lost at least in part because the 309s NWRR used to use were Mk1 underframed stock with non-locking slamdoors and so had to go.

And well before the 309s BR for many years operated a regular semi-fast Manchester Picc - Birmingham New St. via Macc/Stoke service using mainly class 310s.

I wonder why such a thing doesn't exsist? If WMT had to extend the Crewe - Euston service to Manchester Piccadilly, they'd surely make a killing and allow Virgin to covert the Blackpool service to Pendo operation.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Is there any way of getting them into the Moor Street bays from Wolverhampton without reversing? If so, all you need is wires between the current end of the knitting and Moor Street and you could utilise the bay that currently has that stuffed engine

 

[edwin_m]

Is there any way of getting them into the Moor Street bays from Wolverhampton without reversing? If so, all you need is wires between the current end of the knitting and Moor Street and you could utilise the bay that currently has that stuffed engine

The Moor Street bays face towards London. I can't be bothered to work out how you'd make the journey from Wolverhampton without reversing, suffice it to say it would be stupidly indirect.

 

[The Planner]

Not without the Bordesley chords being built no.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder why such a thing doesn't exsist? If WMT had to extend the Crewe - Euston service to Manchester Piccadilly, they'd surely make a killing and allow Virgin to covert the Blackpool service to Pendo operation.

How would that free up a Pendo? We're talking about freeing up XC Voyagers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Offering the "opportunity" to change at Wolverhampton instead is certainly one way to make people feel better about changing at New Street. Minimal facilities and nothing nearby, not much in the way of platform space, and a long hike to the bridge meaning that connection times aren't really much quicker.

International is quite a lot better, though - indoor bridge, a few shops, easy access to the airport with restaurants etc.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Not without the Bordesley chords being built no.

Damm...That is annoying. It would be useful for chords there to allow both East Midlands bound services and the above hypothetical 360 operated services to avoid the congested New Street and have a better connection to HS2

The Moor Street bays face towards London. I can't be bothered to work out how you'd make the journey from Wolverhampton without reversing, suffice it to say it would be stupidly indirect.

One advantage of London facing bays and a indirect route would have been that it would have been more convenient than Snow Hill or New Street for those who wanted to head to HS2 without crossing Birmingham...

 

[edwin_m]

Damm...That is annoying. It would be useful for chords there to allow both East Midlands bound services and the above hypothetical 360 operated services to avoid the congested New Street and have a better connection to HS2

Even with the Bordesley Chords the quickest route towards Wolverhampton would be via the Sutton Park line, still a pretty long way round and not electrified.

 

[Class172]

Even with the Bordesley Chords the quickest route towards Wolverhampton would be via the Sutton Park line, still a pretty long way round and not electrified.

The only other route using the Bordesley Chords would be using the Lifford Curve. This would be self-defeating however as in order to get there one would have to pass through New Street (and also Aston)!!