Really ?
Strange then that, having for years and years followed a policy of ambling around a few feet from my luggage, it has never been investigated, or even queried, by staff.
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Unattended bags
- Thread starter Intermodal
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Really ?
Strange then that, having for years and years followed a policy of ambling around a few feet from my luggage, it has never been investigated, or even queried, by staff.
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R
RailUK Forums
Define 'a few feet'. The OP stated less than 5m, which given the rest of his posting probably means significantly further than that. If it looks like it's obviously yours then it's not going to be an issue, unless you're doing something else to attract attention. If it looks deliberately or accidentally unattended that's the point past which someone should take an interest.
Less than 10. Closer if the platform is busy.
The poster I replied to stated if I did not stand with my luggage or drag/carry it around it would be investigated by staff and that "there are no other options". Clearly this is a totally false statement as I have followed another option 100% successfully for over 40 years dating back to the time when the IRA bombing campaign was in full swing.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I know which posters in this thread i would listen to! But then again we don't need experts now do we?
Quite often that's not how devices are destroyed. ie no explosives are used, it's normally a much safer method in confined spaces. Controlled disruption is a better term.
Chris M
Member
When I said "Stand on the platform with your luggage." I didn't mean you have to be literally millimetres away from it at all times. @mpthomson has it right when they say "If it looks like it's obviously yours then it's not going to be an issue".
If there is luggage on the platform then its going to fall into one of three categories:
1. Obviously attended (based on the combination of the proximity and demeanour of the people closest to it). In this case it is not going to cause an issue unless the behaviour of the person attending it is otherwise suspicious.
2. Obviously unattended, again based on a combination of proximity and demeanour. This is going to result in further investigation of the luggage to determine whether it is a threat or not.
3. Not obviously either attended or unattended. The first thing that will happen in this situation is that the person investigating will try and determine if it belongs to any of the people nearby. I've seen this happen a few times, and in every case someone has claimed it, no fuss has been made by either party and all has been well. Indeed the person whose bag it is usually apologetic for causing concern.
I suspect that in the OP's situation that the member of staff initially put it in category 3, and when nobody spoke up to claim it or showed any interest in it correctly reassessed it as probably abandoned and started investigating further. If so the OP has nobody but themselves to blame.
Its also worth noting though that if you suddenly claim that a bag 2 metres or more away from you which you've not been paying any attention to is yours, then this could very well be taken as suspicious.
Intermodal
Established Member
Wow - well this thread has exploded - I apologise I was not available last night to reply to any of these posts regarding my 'incident' at Nuneaton. There are too many responses for me to quote and reply to each, but hopefully I can reply to the general sentiment.
First of all, I appreciate all of your replies and opinions, even those that cast me as a difficult passenger. I certainly agree that on this specific occasion that I was being difficult, however please put yourself in my shoes: I travel almost exclusively with large and heavy bags, being a seafarer, and almost all of the journeys I undertake with these bags are at least 6 hours long, usually with at least 4 changes. After each one of these journeys I am left restless, with back pain from the heavy load, and I do not at all think it is unreasonable to want to plop my bags down at the side of the platform (least likely to obstruct anyone walking past), and then stretch my legs a little bit after having been sat down for two to three hours. This is most certainly the first time I have been 'difficult' in regard to this issue, and it was only through sheer frustration of what seems to be (to me) a lack of common sense by members of the public and railway staff.
I'd like to reiterate that I was the only person on Nuneaton platform three, besides the dispatcher, and I was stood less than 5 metres from my bags, gently pacing to keep warm. If I had been the dispatcher, in my mind, all it took was one quick glance over to me (again, the only person in the vicinity of the bags or even on the 11-coach platform), and had she done this, I would have quickly taken my headphones off, and explained to her that the luggage was mine. However, her reaction was almost the complete opposite of what I personally (clearly everyone is different) would have done, and I truly struggled to understand how the most sensible course of action in her mind was to start the reporting process upwards, to her manager and then presumably to the BTP, when there was one individual on the entire platform who was extremely nearby and could've been asked immediately whether the bags were his or not. She did not at any point even make eye contact with me, and I certainly was not ignoring her presence. I am never out of sight of my bags, or even far away from them. I could've reached my bags within 3 seconds of movement, and in fact I did when my train arrived.
In all the other incidents I described in the OP, at no point was I being difficult as I was at Nuneaton, and at no point were my bags far away from me either, and each time I immediately confessed ownership of the bags to whoever was trying to enquire about them. In fact, in several incidents, my feet were literally centimeters from the side of the bags at which point people started enquiring if they were 'left luggage'. I understand my bags are perhaps a bit bigger and heavier than people may be used to - but still, it is not uncommon to see several large rucksacks on a train, in my view. It is extremely uncommon for such things to be a threat.
After weeks at sea, and faced with incredibly long and arduous train journeys with large luggage, it can become easy to get irritated at people constantly poking you and enquiring about what is an entirely innocent and normal and expected behaviour: having luggage on public transport.
In retrospect, I did not make the dispatcher's life at Nuneaton easy; however it does not make my life easy to be continually prodded about my bag full of waterproof clothes and underwear on a regular basis - and I just wish some common sense could be applied. I do accept that it is not the dispatchers fault that we live in the world we live in, and should I see her again, I would apologise to her.
I hope that those who cast doubt on my sincerity and behaviour can perhaps see it somewhat more from my side - just because I have a large bag does not mean I am a terrorist, and if someone had enquired about my bag (which was clearly mine at Nuneaton, in my opinion, again only person etc), I would have been happy to help - instead of a passive aggressive reaction which in turn evoked a passive aggressive reaction from me.
First of all, I appreciate all of your replies and opinions, even those that cast me as a difficult passenger. I certainly agree that on this specific occasion that I was being difficult, however please put yourself in my shoes: I travel almost exclusively with large and heavy bags, being a seafarer, and almost all of the journeys I undertake with these bags are at least 6 hours long, usually with at least 4 changes. After each one of these journeys I am left restless, with back pain from the heavy load, and I do not at all think it is unreasonable to want to plop my bags down at the side of the platform (least likely to obstruct anyone walking past), and then stretch my legs a little bit after having been sat down for two to three hours. This is most certainly the first time I have been 'difficult' in regard to this issue, and it was only through sheer frustration of what seems to be (to me) a lack of common sense by members of the public and railway staff.
I'd like to reiterate that I was the only person on Nuneaton platform three, besides the dispatcher, and I was stood less than 5 metres from my bags, gently pacing to keep warm. If I had been the dispatcher, in my mind, all it took was one quick glance over to me (again, the only person in the vicinity of the bags or even on the 11-coach platform), and had she done this, I would have quickly taken my headphones off, and explained to her that the luggage was mine. However, her reaction was almost the complete opposite of what I personally (clearly everyone is different) would have done, and I truly struggled to understand how the most sensible course of action in her mind was to start the reporting process upwards, to her manager and then presumably to the BTP, when there was one individual on the entire platform who was extremely nearby and could've been asked immediately whether the bags were his or not. She did not at any point even make eye contact with me, and I certainly was not ignoring her presence. I am never out of sight of my bags, or even far away from them. I could've reached my bags within 3 seconds of movement, and in fact I did when my train arrived.
In all the other incidents I described in the OP, at no point was I being difficult as I was at Nuneaton, and at no point were my bags far away from me either, and each time I immediately confessed ownership of the bags to whoever was trying to enquire about them. In fact, in several incidents, my feet were literally centimeters from the side of the bags at which point people started enquiring if they were 'left luggage'. I understand my bags are perhaps a bit bigger and heavier than people may be used to - but still, it is not uncommon to see several large rucksacks on a train, in my view. It is extremely uncommon for such things to be a threat.
After weeks at sea, and faced with incredibly long and arduous train journeys with large luggage, it can become easy to get irritated at people constantly poking you and enquiring about what is an entirely innocent and normal and expected behaviour: having luggage on public transport.
In retrospect, I did not make the dispatcher's life at Nuneaton easy; however it does not make my life easy to be continually prodded about my bag full of waterproof clothes and underwear on a regular basis - and I just wish some common sense could be applied. I do accept that it is not the dispatchers fault that we live in the world we live in, and should I see her again, I would apologise to her.
I hope that those who cast doubt on my sincerity and behaviour can perhaps see it somewhat more from my side - just because I have a large bag does not mean I am a terrorist, and if someone had enquired about my bag (which was clearly mine at Nuneaton, in my opinion, again only person etc), I would have been happy to help - instead of a passive aggressive reaction which in turn evoked a passive aggressive reaction from me.
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The problem with terrorists is that they can come from any racial grouping, and the member of staff, however professional or not her reaction (we've only got one side of the story remember), has no idea whether or not you or your baggage is a threat, particularly if you appear not to be connected to it.
The fact that you're the only person on the platform doesn't mean the baggage is yours, someone else could have left it there and you may not have noticed or assumed it was OK for a variety of reasons, especially if you aren't stood near it. Equally size of bag isn't important, the vessel for the Boston marathon bomb was a domestic pressure cooker with the handle removed, so small enough to fit in a moderately sized daysac, and the failed tube bomb from a few weeks ago wasn't much bigger. Significantly powerful IEDs can come in very small packages. The size of your bag makes it no more or less likely to contain something nasty.
It's really about making the station staff's job as easy as you can to be honest, it's not a huge drama to be questioned about a bag, especially if you aren't next to it.
Intermodal
Established Member
I fully take this on board - I did not do this on this occasion, and as I say, should it happen again, I would approach it differently (as I had done in the past). I was generally frustrated - my train was late, I had already missed a prior connection on this day and was already 30 minutes behind getting home - and the lateness of my train at Nuneaton made me miss my Merseyrail connection at Chester. I am particularly sensitive about my personal privacy being invaded after a long few weeks at work (where I have no personal space).
Again, I still maintain that I would have totally approached the situation differently, and would've simply asked the only likely nearby person if it belonged to them, rather than expecting them to just step forward without making any effort to communicate, and I would not have shouted at myself repetitively after I did pick up my bags - but I have no idea what was going on in this lady's life either - perhaps she was having a particularly bad day also and my non-standard behaviour put her over the edge a bit.
If I see her again I am sure we can both hug, kiss and make up.
DelW
Established Member
- Joined
- 15 Jan 2015
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- 5,981
There would have been two easy ways of avoiding the confrontation which occurred:
- dispatcher sees one passenger and one set of luggage, asks "is this yours?", reply is "yes", incident over
- passenger sees dispatcher concerned over luggage, says "don't worry, that's mine", incident over
but unfortunately none of us always takes the easy path... and in this case neither did.
- dispatcher sees one passenger and one set of luggage, asks "is this yours?", reply is "yes", incident over
- passenger sees dispatcher concerned over luggage, says "don't worry, that's mine", incident over
but unfortunately none of us always takes the easy path... and in this case neither did.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
And what happened in the past has no relevance to TODAY's security advice!
D1009
Established Member
After my mini rant at the start I've done a bit more thinking about this, really about why it seems to be more of a problem on the railway than in other businesses dealing with large numbers of people. The terrorist threat could be anywhere, and it being rammed down our throats on TV whenever an incident occurs and a senior security person gets interviewed causes most people to react that there is very little they as individuals can do.
Other examples of businesses dealing with gatherings of large numbers of people gathering are Football and other sporting venues, bus stations and shopping malls. In all of these examples there is usually a professional security presence, who can tell which bags are genuinely unattended and which aren't, and can act accordingly. On the railway away from the large stations, this task has to be carried out by despatch staff who are already busy with passengers having other problems. The travelling public contains many thousands of nasty people with little respect for their fellow human beings, and less for those who wear a railway uniform, and being asked to move luggage which is obviously theirs is bound to cause more trouble than it could possibly avoid.
So my question is, should despatch staff be the ones to have to carry out this task, and if the risk of a terrorist attack on the railway system is so high, should there be more investment in security on the railways?
With the threat to the U.K. from international terrorism at SEVERE, why would anyone want to leave their bags unattended at a rail station. Doing this is very likely to cause concern among other passengers, staff and the security services. Away from the threat of terrorism, why would you want to leave them unattended and risk them being stolen ?
Once whilst inebriated I managed to leave a 75 litre metal framed rucksack on a late night Liverpool to Manchester service when I got off at Warrington. I pressed the emergency call button to let the powers that be know it was there and that it was mine and not a threat so that I didn't wake up the next day to hear about a suspicious bag being destroyed at Oxford Road. I got a proper dressing down just for having pressed the emergency call button despite the announcements on the train and in Warrington Central. My huge metal framed rucksack was somehow never found despite me telling them exactly where it was. The illusion of safety. See it, Say it, get lost.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
This pretty much sums up the whole thread. I think you dropped your microphone!
Well first thing's first I work at Luton Airport and am well aware of unattended baggage, wether just forgotten and left somewhere or on purpose. Secondly it is very common and luggage is left unattended everyday. The thing about these situation's is that it is right we get twitchy about it and great people are vigilant, however it is all lipservice because these day's the people wishing to harm us are willing to die for their cause and they could stay with the luggage and still achieve their aim. And on a side note did you know the animal liberation front are some of the most dangerous terrorist's going.
headshot119
Established Member
I left a bag on an ATW service once, they quite happily to let it travel Cardiff - Tenby - Carmarthen despite being told it was an unattended bag.
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Absolute garbage. How many people have animal rights activists killed in the UK in the last 40 yrs compared to Irish or Islamic terror groups?
To give you a clue, the answer is none. In nearly 15yrs of seeing int briefs i’ve never seen one related to animal rights activists that was considered even remotely close to the level of risk posed by the more normal non-state actors. They were active in the late 80s-mid 90s but they’ve moved on to chaining themselves to fracking rigs and that kind of protest now.
As others have said, it is an illusion of safety.
Someone could stand stock still next to their dodgy bag at Sheffield station, as they are apparently supposed to do.
They then board the train and leave the bag in the designated rack, as ordered by the on board announcements.
No one can see the bags in the rack from their seat, let alone tell whether they have a nearby owner, so when the dodgy bag owner alights at Chesterfield without the bag no one bats an eyelid.
The dodgy bag planter then has plenty of time to board a train back to Sheffield, go home and watch the unfolding reports of an explosion on a train at Birmingham New St from the comfort of their armchair.
Meanwhile, someone on the platform with a perfectly innocuous bag who happens to stray beyond the arbitrary permitted distance, but whilst still keeping a close eye on their luggage, finds the BTP called and is roundly abused on this forum for endangering safety.
Someone could stand stock still next to their dodgy bag at Sheffield station, as they are apparently supposed to do.
They then board the train and leave the bag in the designated rack, as ordered by the on board announcements.
No one can see the bags in the rack from their seat, let alone tell whether they have a nearby owner, so when the dodgy bag owner alights at Chesterfield without the bag no one bats an eyelid.
The dodgy bag planter then has plenty of time to board a train back to Sheffield, go home and watch the unfolding reports of an explosion on a train at Birmingham New St from the comfort of their armchair.
Meanwhile, someone on the platform with a perfectly innocuous bag who happens to stray beyond the arbitrary permitted distance, but whilst still keeping a close eye on their luggage, finds the BTP called and is roundly abused on this forum for endangering safety.
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There’s a limit to what the travelling public will tolerate in terms of security, especially on a mass transit system like rail sevices. Introducing airport style security checks on commuter services is a non-starter in terms of logistic practicalities. In the end though this kind of vigilance is society’s responsibility rather than just the dispatch staff, although they have the benefit of familiarity with what’s ‘normal’ and what isn’t.
We all have our part to play in this and to some extent that’s what the endless announcements are promoting.
Kind
Kind of tongue in cheek, however they are classed as terrorist's and although they have not kileed they have waged campaign's of terror and some were jailed for many act's including burning property, stealing the remain's of an old lady related to a guinea pig farm owner, they attacked homes and car's and business. They sent explosive devices and made threat's to kill including to a cleaner a labourer and other people who did business with the farm. Eventually several were jailed.
Kind of tongue in cheek, however they are classed as terrorist's and although they have not kileed they have waged campaign's of terror and some were jailed for many act's including burning property, stealing the remain's of an old lady related to a guinea pig farm owner, they attacked homes and car's and business. They sent explosive devices and made threat's to kill including to a cleaner a labourer and other people who did business with the farm. Eventually several were jailed.
I’m fully aware of that. They are not, however, considered a serious risk to life in the UK.
Maybe not but if one of them device's had gone off still be a few dead people do you not think.
It isn’t ‘an illusion of safety’ and if you think that then you clearly aren’t aware of the realities of the current threat and the amount of work that goes on,carried out by a number of agencies to stop these attacks. There would have been far more if these precautions weren’t in place, one reason (among several) being that these groups/individuals would be provided with a safer space to operate in. Being aware of what is around us costs nothing and has saved lives in the past.
As I’ve said before some of the complacency of some on this thread is frightening.
They’ve never been considered a significant risk to the general public except against specific individuals, all of whom had specific security measures put in place to protect them.
It’s not the same issue at all.
Not the same as which issue I did say as a side note, also they are still then considered dangerous and them individual's needed security and I never said the general public, however the people that were targeted in that one case alone on that farm and connected to ran into hundred's and that is one case.
Indeed but the thread is about unattended baggage on railway property and the perception and realities of the threat to the general public, not animal rights activists and threats against a small number of specific individuals who worked for Huntingdon Life Sciences either directly or as sub-contractors. It’s a very different set of circumstances to those faced now in terms of threat.
Sorry mate but you are wrong. It is an illusion of safety hence me getting a load of stick for simply telling the relevant authorities that there was a 75 litre metal framed rucksack sat on a train which no one has to worry about. I work with the MOD and am well aware of the current threat level.
How long ago did you leave your bag on a train?
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