Arriva Rail North DOO

[Carlisle]

ASLEF have to officially stay away from any safety arguments about emergencies then, because the drivers are already taking on all the risk of protecting the train in an accident on a DOO train.

The big changes are opening doors and closing doors or managing passengers which drivers haven't been trained for. So Northern provide the training and do the risk assessments and offer ASLEF to join them. The technical objections can all be overcome and ultimately if it comes to it the courts will say that ASLEF members can't just decline to take part as that is illegal industrial action. ASLEF need a reason for a dispute that is based on bargaining procedures, change to working conditions. Not enough to say they are not being asked to do something they haven't been trained for or is unsafe when that can be managed to the court's satisfaction.

Surely ASLEF drivers on Northern could ask the same question as the RMT did to Northern and get their own ballot and rolling strikes started? No need to wait as guards haven't had to change anything about working to get their ballot through. Just ask Northern if they plan to alter terms and conditions during the franchise about DOO, get a vague answer, see what membership say about lack of clear answer and ballot on trade dispute about DOO. If they strike or not then the mandate is there and it's more pressure. It depends how much talk there is and how much real support for the guards.

None of the safety arguments are going to make any difference in a court because DOO happens safely every day for the longest trains and there won't be any technical reason why Northern's new or refreshed trains cannot have driver door control with Cctv.

I don’t really understand the point your trying to make in this post, as on one hand you suggest the safety arguments against implementing DOO are probably pretty weak at best but then recommend the drivers follow the RMTs example of holding pre emptive strike action.asap

 

[Dave1987]

Spoke to an old friend of mine who I haven’t seen in ages a couple of days ago who is a guard for Northern. They said they found it quite amusing the Governments stance on it all. At the moment they go to work, earn a decent wage, pay their mortgage and contribute to the local economy and pay taxes. They reckon within a few years they will be on the dole being a burden on the taxpayer. The irony of this Government being all about jobs jobs jobs but intentionally trying to get rid of job, especially in the north, certainly wasn’t lost of them.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I really do wish someone in the DfT would actually spend a week with a Guard on Both shifts so they can really see what an average week is like let alone when there is a serious incident. Whenever a Guard attempts to explain what their role really is like we get the same hyperbole from certain posters when to put it blunt unless you are a Guard and seen the every day things that we have seen you will never actually "get it". Its ok saying the chances of something is this... or the cost saving is that or Technology solves this. There is a reason why the Guard grade in most of the country bar the South East has remained is quite simple we are worth far more in the long run to the safety and revenue of the railway than to politicians trying to score Brownie points or Franchise Holders trying to get even more profit then they get now. Strikes Suck we all know this but the thousands of Guards Striking for Safety and yes..Jobs are worth far more than most people realise. That is until we are gone.

 

[HH]

Spoke to an old friend of mine who I haven’t seen in ages a couple of days ago who is a guard for Northern. They said they found it quite amusing the Governments stance on it all. At the moment they go to work, earn a decent wage, pay their mortgage and contribute to the local economy and pay taxes. They reckon within a few years they will be on the dole being a burden on the taxpayer. The irony of this Government being all about jobs jobs jobs but intentionally trying to get rid of job, especially in the north, certainly wasn’t lost of them.

I think that you have missed the point of this government and the Tories in general - public jobs bad, private jobs good. As they end up paying for guards (via an increased subsidy in Northern's case) then they see that as a public job.

 

[Dave1987]

I think that you have missed the point of this government and the Tories in general - public jobs bad, private jobs good. As they end up paying for guards (via an increased subsidy in Northern's case) then they see that as a public job.

Well the Government will pay either way, either through subsidies or through dole money. I was very surprised at my their attitude towards it all to be honest when I asked how it was all going for them with the risk to their job. They had pretty much accepted that unless Grayling backs down they will be out of a job within a few years. They are way too young to retire and there aren’t many options for retaining at all and even if they could retrain, decent employment opportunities are scarce. They definitely thought it was very amusing that the Government was seemingly intentionally putting people on the dole when they have preached about how work should pay.

 

[HH]

Well the Government will pay either way, either through subsidies or through dole money. I was very surprised at my their attitude towards it all to be honest when I asked how it was all going for them with the risk to their job. They had pretty much accepted that unless Grayling backs down they will be out of a job within a few years. They are way too young to retire and there aren’t many options for retaining at all and even if they could retrain, decent employment opportunities are scarce. They definitely thought it was very amusing that the Government was seemingly intentionally putting people on the dole when they have preached about how work should pay.

Even (this) Government understands that there is a cost of unemployment. Their view is that people will get jobs and they are making benefits less attractive to encourage that. There'll be bundles of jobs once we stop free movement; allegedly.

However, I'm unconvinced that mass unemployment for guards is the plan anyway; it would make much more sense to reduce numbers gradually, allowing natural wastage and a bit of redeployment to take numbers down. Even with the expected switch to mobile ticketing in the future, there will still be the need for staff, even if every train was DCO (and that's a long way off).

 

[Robertj21a]

Well the Government will pay either way, either through subsidies or through dole money. I was very surprised at my their attitude towards it all to be honest when I asked how it was all going for them with the risk to their job. They had pretty much accepted that unless Grayling backs down they will be out of a job within a few years. They are way too young to retire and there aren’t many options for retaining at all and even if they could retrain, decent employment opportunities are scarce. They definitely thought it was very amusing that the Government was seemingly intentionally putting people on the dole when they have preached about how work should pay.

Dave,

You are totally over reacting, as usual. Your assumptions are probably way off the reality of the true situation and you are, yet again, expecting jobs to be fully guaranteed for many years to come. Life is not that smooth in the real world but most people can cope with changes to family, friends - and jobs.

 

[northwichcat]

Well the Government will pay either way, either through subsidies or through dole money. I was very surprised at my their attitude towards it all to be honest when I asked how it was all going for them with the risk to their job. They had pretty much accepted that unless Grayling backs down they will be out of a job within a few years. They are way too young to retire and there aren’t many options for retaining at all and even if they could retrain, decent employment opportunities are scarce. They definitely thought it was very amusing that the Government was seemingly intentionally putting people on the dole when they have preached about how work should pay.

If you end up on the dole you are given a permitted 3 month period where you don't have to apply for any jobs which are on a lower salary than what you were previously on (unless you choose to), then after that you have to apply for any work you're able to do if you want to claim benefits. So hypothetically if you were made redundant as a guard you could choose to ignore a post office clerk vacancy if one was advertised 6 weeks after you were made redundant but not 6 months after you were made redundant.

It's been mentioned in another thread that VTEC are targeting former Monarch cabin crews to fill vacancies. Something similar may happen if a load of guards were made redundant.

 

[Dave1987]

Dave,

You are totally over reacting, as usual. Your assumptions are probably way off the reality of the true situation and you are, yet again, expecting jobs to be fully guaranteed for many years to come. Life is not that smooth in the real world but most people can cope with changes to family, friends - and jobs.

You Tories really just don’t get it do you. And you wonder why wages are stagnant and you lost your majority at the election.

 

[Robertj21a]

You Tories really just don’t get it do you. And you wonder why wages are stagnant and you lost your majority at the election.

I'm not sure what the connection is between my comments and the Tories !

These rather disconnected ramblings from you are getting a bit worrying.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I'm not sure what the connection is between my comments and the Tories !

These rather disconnected ramblings from you are getting a bit worrying.

Sorry but you do sound like a Tory.

 

[Dave1987]

I'm not sure what the connection is between my comments and the Tories !

These rather disconnected ramblings from you are getting a bit worrying.

It’s rather worrying that the supposedly economically competent party can’t see the wood for the trees!

You create an economy where no one has an job security and you demolish workers rights. You then have a situation where workers have to accept any change to their working conditions and dare not ask for a pay rise for fear of losing their jobs and livelihoods.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not sure what the connection is between my comments and the Tories !

These rather disconnected ramblings from you are getting a bit worrying.

Sorry but you do sound like a Tory.

For political neutrality let's not forget Labour controlled Merseytravel want to get rid of the second member of on board staff on most services, not just change the role of the second member of staff. While the Northern ITT was published by a Conservative led DfT along with the Lib Dems who they were in coalition with and it was signed off by a Labour led Rail North. So the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems are all happy to see the guard's role downgraded. Labour may say they are anti-DOO but when it's a choice of new trains without guards or old trains with guards they are just as happy to get rid of the guard's role as any other party.

I don't understand why the RMT have resorted to desperate measures like scaremongering about unstaffed stations becoming crime hotspots if the trains are DOO. There isn't even any evidence that any DOO services will stop at stations outside staffing hours (for either Northern or Merseyrail.) There's far better arguments that the RMT could use even if they don't have the PR budget of the Conservative party - not that the Conservative's PR is that good at the moment anyway!

 

[northwichcat]

It’s rather worrying that the supposedly economically competent party can’t see the wood for the trees!

You create an economy where no one has an job security and you demolish workers rights. You then have a situation where workers have to accept any change to their working conditions and dare not ask for a pay rise for fear of losing their jobs and livelihoods.

The Conservatives aren't an economically competent party. Statistically Norman Lamont and George Osborne were lousy Chancellors and Phillip Hammond is following suit. Spending a huge amount on PR telling us Labour caused the last recession or trying to give themselves credit for the one economic policy they've implemented in the past 7 years which has worked (which was a Lib Dem policy that David Cameron originally opposed) doesn't make the Conservatives economically competent.

 

[Robertj21a]

It’s rather worrying that the supposedly economically competent party can’t see the wood for the trees!

You create an economy where no one has an job security and you demolish workers rights. You then have a situation where workers have to accept any change to their working conditions and dare not ask for a pay rise for fear of losing their jobs and livelihoods.

.........rather evidencing my concern at your disconnected ramblings......

Anyway, I'm sure you know what you're talking about, so I'll leave you to it.

 

[Merthyr Imp]

Is there any news of any more planned strikes, specifically during the week after next?

 

[northwichcat]

Is there any news of any more planned strikes, specifically during the week after next?

Keep an eye on the RMT website. Any industrial action dates will appear there usually around 14-16 days in advance.

 

[Smidster]

Is there any news of any more planned strikes, specifically during the week after next?

Nothing at the moment

I believe they have to give at least 2 weeks notice so you should be OK for travel in the next fortnight.

On the RMT website they are advertising meetings at the end of the month in Leeds and Manchester so I would guess more action will follow those - as we get closer to Christmas I expect Fridays and Saturdays to be a particular target

 

[Andyh82]

Is there any news of any more planned strikes, specifically during the week after next?

I'd put money on 22nd and 23rd December being likely.

 

[Chester1]

Has anyone been made unemployed by DOO in the UK and if so when and how many? I mean actually lost their employment not had to transfer to other roles or ToCs or a ToC reduction in head count through natural wastage? Genuine question! I have only been following the topic for 2 or 3 years.

 

[313103]

Has anyone been made unemployed by DOO in the UK and if so when and how many? I mean actually lost their employment not had to transfer to other roles or ToCs or a ToC reduction in head count through natural wastage? Genuine question! I have only been following the topic for 2 or 3 years.

I doubt there is actual figures around unless you went through every single company including BR. I can give a brief insight into what happened in the areas that i worked in that went DOO-P. I know some left the industry when the original DOO-P scheme kicked in in 1983, the same could be said when DOO-P kicked in on the Chiltern Line in late 1992. I transferred in 1993 from Marylebone to Willesden as a Guard. When London Overground went DOO-P in November 2013 i left. I then joined as a new starter with another company in January 2014. As i left the industry in November and started again in January it means that my seniority was terminated. On London Overground of the 138 Guards i think over 50 left the company so a reduction on headcount took place there. The rest either went driving or went into the grade made up for DOO. I think about 10 retired.
I think most of the Guards who fell through the wayside were guards on the freight side again finding absolute figures is a nightmare unless you work in HR. I hope this is of some help.

 

[YorkshireLad]

Is there any news of any more planned strikes, specifically during the week after next?

You may have jinxed it. Sky have tweeted "RMT union says workers on Merseyrail and Arriva Rail North will strike for 24 hours on 8 November in disputes over the role of guards"

 

[northwichcat]

You may have jinxed it. Sky have tweeted "RMT union says workers on Merseyrail and Arriva Rail North will strike for 24 hours on 8 November in disputes over the role of guards"

Sounds like my night out in Manchester won't be going ahead then.

 

[Chester1]

I doubt there is actual figures around unless you went through every single company including BR. I can give a brief insight into what happened in the areas that i worked in that went DOO-P. I know some left the industry when the original DOO-P scheme kicked in in 1983, the same could be said when DOO-P kicked in on the Chiltern Line in late 1992. I transferred in 1993 from Marylebone to Willesden as a Guard. When London Overground went DOO-P in November 2013 i left. I then joined as a new starter with another company in January 2014. As i left the industry in November and started again in January it means that my seniority was terminated. On London Overground of the 138 Guards i think over 50 left the company so a reduction on headcount took place there. The rest either went driving or went into the grade made up for DOO. I think about 10 retired.
I think most of the Guards who fell through the wayside were guards on the freight side again finding absolute figures is a nightmare unless you work in HR. I hope this is of some help.

To clarify when you mean left the industry do you mean subject to compulsory redundancy or accepted a voluntary redundancy offer or refused an offer of an alternative role on same pay? Merseyrail have promised no compulsory redundancies for permanent employees therefore its hard to understand why some people are certain a large number of Merseyrail and Northern conductors will literally end up unemployed and in the dole queue.

 

[Monty]

To clarify when you mean left the industry do you mean subject to compulsory redundancy or accepted a voluntary redundancy offer or refused an offer of an alternative role on same pay? Merseyrail have promised no compulsory redundancies for permanent employees therefore its hard to understand why some people are certain a large number of Merseyrail and Northern conductors will literally end up unemployed and in the dole queue.

I believe 313103 was made compulsory redundant, former Overground conductors had to apply for other jobs many of which did not include the same level of pay.

 

[Smidster]

You may have jinxed it. Sky have tweeted "RMT union says workers on Merseyrail and Arriva Rail North will strike for 24 hours on 8 November in disputes over the role of guards"

For bleeps sake

I have an interview in London that day (live in West Yorkshire) so what was already going to be a long day becomes an awful lot worse...All adds to the fun I guess.

If I had any sympathy for the Guards this would end it - Enough of this!

 

[Kite159]

I would imagine some guards would jump at a voluntary redundancy deal, mainly those who have been employed in the industry for many years, a couple years away from retirement age, who will get a decent sized pay-out before taking early retirement.

Same in any industry when voluntary redundancies are offered, they tend to get the longer servers applying.

 

[LowLevel]

For bleeps sake

I have an interview in London that day (live in West Yorkshire) so what was already going to be a long day becomes an awful lot worse...All adds to the fun I guess.

If I had any sympathy for the Guards this would end it - Enough of this!

Wasn't it ever thus? "Personal inconvenience to me - THIS MUST STOP!!"

I'm sure the guards foregoing thousands of pounds in wages themselves would also like to see it stop but until the DfT and the TOCs cease to play silly games it's unlikely to get any better.

For what it's worth I get it in the neck as well through my own trains being wedged, having lots of confused and angry passengers to look after/console and so on but I will carry on wearing my yellow RMT badge regardless of the abuse it inevitably gets on strike days because I care about the issue at hand.

 

[northwichcat]

Wasn't it ever thus? "Personal inconvenience to me - THIS MUST STOP!!"

I'm sure the guards foregoing thousands of pounds in wages themselves would also like to see it stop but until the DfT and the TOCs cease to play silly games it's unlikely to get any better.

For what it's worth I get it in the neck as well through my own trains being wedged, having lots of confused and angry passengers to look after/console and so on but I will carry on wearing my yellow RMT badge regardless of the abuse it inevitably gets on strike days because I care about the issue at hand.

Given the wording of the franchise agreement and the fact Northern is a subsided franchise, having a load of trains in sidings and guards not being paid probably won't affect either Northern or DfT that much.

Any guard who is a RMT member and can't afford to strike can get paid by the RMT to go on strike in the form of a 'hardship fund' and no guard is forced to go on strike if they need the money. If any RMT members hurl verbal abuse at strike breakers they are breaking the law and can be arrested.

So all a Northern strike does is inconvenience the passengers.

I noticed there were 2 fairly new guards working my local line today, so it looks like Northern are still recruiting more guards.

 

[northernchris]

Surprised November 8th has been chosen. With the launch of the Christmas markets just a few days after thought the RMT would have chosen days around that weekend. The fact only 1 day has been declared is also interesting